Abortion

[Kebean PFC]

Ok this thread is pretty self explanatory, post what you think AND ONLY WHAT YOU THINK!! I dont want links to sites and info and other stuff i want YOUR (original) VIEWS and a DEBATE. This is not to be confused with the usual flamefest that is the politics forum.

Personally, i am pro choice. It is the woman who should decide if she wants to have a baby, not some official or religious zelot. I beleive it is alot better than being born and then getting left in a trashcan to die.

In view of the nature of humanity, please don't get pissed when people dont agree with you. They won't, and if you act like an ass never will take you seriously. Again, please no flames, if this gets out of control, i would ask a forum mod to close it.

Thanks

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

Ok this thread is pretty self explanatory, post what you think AND ONLY WHAT YOU THINK!! I dont want links to sites and info and other stuff i want YOUR (original) VIEWS and a DEBATE. This is not to be confused with the usual flamefest that is the politics forum.

Personally, i am pro choice. It is the woman who should decide if she wants to have a baby, not some official or religious zelot. I beleive it is alot better than being born and then getting left in a trashcan to die.

In view of the nature of humanity, please don't get pissed when people dont agree with you. They won't, and if you act like an ass never will take you seriously. Again, please no flames, if this gets out of control, i would ask a forum mod to close it.

Thanks

Its not her choice.. its not even the father's choice. Since when does the baby get a say in whether he lives or dies? It should be by default that he lives.. speaking on the baby's behalf.

 

[bliink]

I think it should be allowed, but only while the embryo is below a certain age (let the courts/doctors decide that), and only under certain circumstances.

 

[short recoil]

It is a parent choice and skill if their child survives, if they are not good enough then it does not deserve to survive.
If they choose to kill the child, so be it......
I dont see what all the fuss is about.

 

[bvasgm]

bliink, when you say "certain circumstances", what do you mean? Like if the mother was raped or something, or if she can't take care of it, or if she just doesn't want if? Personally I think that it should be allowed at any point, but only if the parents don't have the ability to care for the child, or if the woman was raped. Just my opinion anyway.

 

[bliink]

bliink, when you say "certain circumstances", what do you mean? Like if the mother was raped or something, or if she can't take care of it, or if she just doesn't want if? Personally I think that it should be allowed at any point, but only if the parents don't have the ability to care for the child, or if the woman was raped. Just my opinion anyway.

Well, I think those circumstances are what would take the most effort to decide upon

 

[KoreBolteR]

i know, it would be a shame for a woman to have to go thru emotional and physical pain, to give birth and carry the child when she doesnt even want it!

anyway, if its a little embryo nobody can see that as "killing"...
itll jus be more mouths to feed the world. (if yoiu get me)

 

[bvasgm]

One good thing about it is that it's a way to collect stem cells. By the way, doesn't anyone know it's upside down avatar week? :E

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

i know, it would be a shame for a woman to have to go thru emotional and physical pain, to give birth and carry the child when she doesnt even want it!

anyway, if its a little embryo nobody can see that as "killing"...
itll jus be more mouths to feed the world. (if yoiu get me)

If you know you dont want a baby in the first place, then dont have sex. that simple.

 

[gh0st]

Shouldnt be allowed by any stretch of the imagination, or under any circumstances.

 

[KoreBolteR]

If you know you dont want a baby in the first place, then dont have sex. that simple.

yeh but what if you dont think about that, its not the first thing you think of.

and what if the person did wear protection and it went wrong, what then? huh :naughty:

 

[ComradeBadger]

I'm pro choice.

It's no-one's decision but the Mother's, as long as the embryo is under a certain age (Can't remember the UK's age limit)

 

[gh0st]

yeh but what if you dont think about that, its not the first thing you think of.

and what if the person did wear protection and it went wrong, what then? huh :naughty:

Regardless of whether or not you thought about it, its your fault and the child shouldnt have to suffer for your mistake

Read the back of condoms. 99%. It fails, and you have to live with the consequences. Hardly fair to kill a child because you couldnt keep your snake in its cage.

 

[CptStern]

pro-choice, mother's decision

 

[Kebean PFC]

Shouldnt be allowed by any stretch of the imagination, or under any circumstances.

I seriously hope you were joking. What if you got raped (pretend your a woman if you are not). Would you want that child? The generic answer is send him off to a orphanage, but would have wanted to grow up there, in poverty, and posibly pain? Orphanages are getting overcrowded, and i think it should be thier choice.

 

[gh0st]

I seriously hope you were joking. What if you got raped (pretend your a woman if you are not). Would you want that child? The generic answer is send him off to a orphanage, but would have wanted to grow up there, in poverty, and posibly pain? Orphanages are getting overcrowded, and i think it should be thier choice.

No I'm being totally serious. Why punish the child for the crimes of his/her father? I consider the childs life equally valuable as the mothers. I would say give it up for adoption, there is always a big group of people in the US who are seeking to adopt.

 

[C-O-N-Spiracy]

yeh but what if you dont think about that, its not the first thing you think of.

and what if the person did wear protection and it went wrong, what then? huh :naughty:

Then suffer the consequences.

 

[Kebean PFC]

But what you sggest floods the adoption agencies with children, and i personally would rather have my own. Nothing against adoption, but as they grow it may be an issue.

 

[gh0st]

But what you sggest floods the adoption agencies with children, and i personally would rather have my own. Nothing against adoption, but as they grow it may be an issue.

Floods? Show me some proof of it being even remotely flooded now. People have been having babys as a result of rape for years and its not flooded the adoption agencies, so what the hell are you on about? I'm not adopted, but I've never exactly seen any unstable adopted kids... no reason to believe adoption isnt legit. Unlike foster parents, these are people REALLY looking for kids of their own. Not to **** around with.

 

[Calanen]

I have said what I thought about abortion and so on in another thread.

I do not like abortion, but I realise that it must continue to be legal. And here's why:

1.) Some women will commit suicide if not being able to have an abortion. This means you kill two people instead of just one. A woman in Melbourne said that she would commit suicide when she was going to have a dwarf, and the doctors performed the abortion when it was very late in the term;

2). People will still have abortions - they will just be done in the backyard with a coat hangar, or by pseudo surgeons who were popular in Australia in the times when abortions were illegal. These quacks, are not doctors, and can often end up killing the patient as well as the baby (which of course was the intended result.

In New South Wales, abortion is technically 'illegal' - ie it can only occur if it is believed to be medically necessary or to protect the health of the mother. The health of the mother includes, I will kill myself if you don't let me have the abortion - and this has been read down to be merely a formality for the paperwork.

So my view is, yes, abortions are a necessary evil. For the above reasons. But I would provide whatever support and assitance that the state could, to try and get the mother to keep the child. You have to live with this fact, that you killed your unborn child, for the rest of your life. While many tough people could shrug this off, I think that the average person would find this hard to live with.

When I did my firearms license to carry a firearm for a security guard company, the ex-SAS instructor made it quite clear - this gun is for killing people, if you are not capable of killing a person, or living with the knowledge that you have, do not wear it. The same may be said of choosing to have an abortion.

 

[CptStern]

giving up a child isnt as easy as you think gh0st, the baby imprints on the mother at birth, it works both ways ..why do you think so many young girls keep their babies? doesnt mean the child wont be screwed from day one because his father is non existant his mother, being a child herself, has no coping skills, no life skills, no prospects, no hope for any sort of employment. In every aspect of that child's life he/she will be affected. You cant tell me a 14 yr old single mother is as prepared for parenthood as a couple who actually planned for it. Trust me it's difficult

 

[gh0st]

giving up a child isnt as easy as you think gh0st, the baby imprints on the mother at birth, it works both ways ..why do you think so many young girls keep their babies? doesnt mean the child wont be screwed from day one because his father is non existant his mother, being a child herself, has no coping skills, no life skills, no prospects, no hope for any sort of employment. In every aspect of that child's life he/she will be affected. You cant tell me a 14 yr old single mother is as prepared for parenthood as a couple who actually planned for it. Trust me it's difficult

Of course not. Whats easier, killing the child or giving it away? One is much more selfish than the other, thats for sure. I notice you chose the very svelt words "mother 'at birth'" indicating that the baby doesnt make this imprint before that - I'd say you are wrong on that assumption. Of course you assume the mother is a 14 year old, who has none of the skills of which you speak - in an ideal case that mother would have some kind of support, be it from family or from the state (of which I certainly support). What I do not support is taking the easy way out, killing a child as a result of its fathers crimes. Doesnt work out in my mind.

 

[Kebean PFC]

A girl at my HS got pregnant. She was 14. He boyfriend was a drug addict, an abuser and a aloholic. He lived with his parents, who were both all of the above, and she moved in with him. She said it was either abortiong or she would keep him. Is that the kind of environment a child needs? She was close to killing herself after she realised what was going to happen to her. As a result, she had an abortion. But we havn't seen her in over a year, and we are pretty sure she is still making the same mistakes.

Again I ask, is this the environment the child needs?

EDIT: yay my 100th post!

 

[KoreBolteR]

Regardless of whether or not you thought about it, its your fault and the child shouldnt have to suffer for your mistake

Read the back of condoms. 99%. It fails, and you have to live with the consequences. Hardly fair to kill a child because you couldnt keep your snake in its cage.

but it isnt killing a child, its removing an embryo before it turns into a child. nothing wrong with that, its the mothers decision... anyway.

u could swear it was killing a child via shotgun, the way you are talking.

think about it, sex is more for pleasure than too try for a baby. (around the world).

so your tellin me that milions of people that have sex every night, are doing it for a child? ru mad? its for pleasure, and why should these people pay the price because a condom or whatever failed to do its job.

to 'suffer the consequences' is not good enough..

 

[DarkStar]

Although I'm a raging liberal on most issues when it comes to abortion I'm nearly a right-wing nut.

I'm pro-life for the same reasons I oppose the death penalty.

 

[gh0st]

A girl at my HS got pregnant. She was 14. He boyfriend was a drug addict, an abuser and a aloholic. He lived with his parents, who were both all of the above, and she moved in with him. She said it was either abortiong or she would keep him. Is that the kind of environment a child needs? She was close to killing herself after she realised what was going to happen to her. As a result, she had an abortion. But we havn't seen her in over a year, and we are pretty sure she is still making the same mistakes.

Again I ask, is this the environment the child needs?

EDIT: yay my 100th post!

You consider this to be the childs crime and not the "mothers" mistake? Get in with the wrong crowd, bad things happen, you mess up, have unprotected sex, condom breaks, youre stuck with the consequences. I agree that bad things happen, but its very sad that our society turns to killing in order to take the easy way out of these problems. If that 14 year old messed up, she needs to work her way out of it. I'm only a few years older than her, I have a job such that I could drop out of school and live a reasonable life with a child. I feel for her, but theres ALWAYS better ways. Again, adoption could easily have solved this problem, and is a much better environment than the one you speak of.

but it isnt killing a child, its removing an embryo before it turns into a child. nothing wrong with that, its the mothers decision... anyway.

Thats your opinion. Justify it however you want, youre still killing a child.

u could swear it was killing a child via shotgun, the way you are talking.

Would there be any difference? You are charged with murder for causing the fetus to die in a pregnant mother the same as you would be charged for murder if you blew a childs brains out with a shotgun. Same difference in the eyes of the law, and I agree with it.

think about it, sex is more for pleasure than too try for a baby. (around the world).

Thats no excuse. You play around, you mess up, and you cant complain about the consequences. Abortion is very cowardly in my opinion, and very selfish given the other options the mother has.

so your tellin me that milions of people that have sex every night, are doing it for a child? ru mad? its for pleasure, and why should these people pay the price because a condom or whatever failed to do its job.

See above. They pay the price because they took the risk and lost. If you have a 99% chance of getting struck by lightning walking outside, should you not have to suffer any consequences from that?

to 'suffer the consequences' is not good enough..

Yes, it is.

 

[KoreBolteR]

i dont see whats hard about this...

its the mothers decision... its HER embryo.

if it was a baby.. fair enuff > i would agree with you.

but how do they know that its 99%? imo its utter bullshit. only so people cant sue them if a condom fails to do its job. i still think you are wrong, sorry.

if that was the case, eggs wouldnt be sold, because thy could have grown into perfectly good chickens...

and what about people who suffer from diseases, (brain damage) etc..
what about them, shall we keep them alive even tho they wanted to die, rather than sit in thier chair unaware what he/she was doing. tbh if i had brain damage, id rather die. i feel sorry for the people that are brain damaged .

 

[bvasgm]

Would there be any difference? You are charged with murder for causing the fetus to die in a pregnant mother the same as you would be charged for murder if you blew a childs brains out with a shotgun. Same difference in the eyes of the law, and I agree with it.

You can't be serious. You actually believe that "killing" a single celled organism is the equivalent of blowing a baby's head off with a shotgun? By the way, KoreBolteR, don't bring euthanasia into this. I think one highly controversial topic is enough for any thread.

Yes, it is.

No. No it isn't.

 

[Teh_Poet]

If you know you dont want a baby in the first place, then dont have sex. that simple.

Exactly. No sex, no baby.

 

[gh0st]

but how do they know that its 99%? imo its utter bullshit. only so people cant sue them if a condom fails to do its job. i still think you are wrong, sorry.

It says 99% on the back of the package, as I said. Condoms DO fail to do their job, and its not THEIR fault when they do, its YOURS.

if that was the case, eggs wouldnt be sold, because thy could have grown into perfectly good chickens...

We also dont eat other people, your analogy doesnt apply.

and what about people who suffer from diseases, (brain damage) etc..
what about them, shall we keep them alive even tho they wanted to die, rather than sit in thier chair unaware what he/she was doing. tbh if i had brain damage, id rather die. i feel sorry for the people that are brain damaged .

One topic at a time, as said earlier. Make a new thread.

You can't be serious. You actually believe that "killing" a single celled organism is the equivalent of blowing a baby's head off with a shotgun? By the way, KoreBolteR, don't bring euthanasia into this. I think one highly controversial topic is enough for any thread.

No, I'm saying the law views them the same way. Preventing life is the same as taking it. For me, anyway. Also, at no point in conception is a baby a single celled organism.

 

[Teh_Poet]

and what if the person did wear protection and it went wrong, what then? huh :naughty:

It's a chance that you have to take, but it's still your fault.

 

[KoreBolteR]

It says 99% on the back of the package, as I said. Condoms DO fail to do their job, and its not THEIR fault when they do, its YOURS..

then what the hell is the point in BUYING condoms?!?!

no sex. no baby.

but sex is what millions of people enjoy, shall we stop them because they do not want to have a baby? no i say.

 

[Calanen]

but it isnt killing a child, its removing an embryo before it turns into a child. nothing wrong with that, its the mothers decision... anyway.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. This falls back into the argument often used by some Pro-Choice people along the lines 'its just a little bunch of cells? not a baby...do u get upset when you kill bacterium in an infection? Of course not - same thing.....'

If you do some research, you will see that its hardly a bunch of cells that are killed. Its a baby quite often capable of surviving outside the womb. And the process used to kill it, is unbelievably gruesome. Do some research. As I say, abortion is a necessary evil. But let's not delud e ourselves into pretending its anything other than what it is - the death of an unborn child. The spin and euphemisms are just used to make something that is abhorent, into something more acceptable. So be accurate - say, I support the death of unborn children. Not its just an embryo....

 

[Teh_Poet]

then what the hell is the point in BUYING condoms?!?!

Because it decreases the chances: not eliminates them.

but sex is what millions of people enjoy, shall we stop them because they do not want to have a baby? no i say.

That's why the world is a sick place.

 

[gh0st]

then what the hell is the point in BUYING condoms?!?!

Answer that for yourself.

but sex is what millions of people enjoy, shall we stop them because they do not want to have a baby? no i say.

No ones telling them to stop, I'm saying people shouldnt kill their mistakes.

 

[bliink]

That's why the world is a sick place.

You think sex for enjoyment is "sick"?

 

[KoreBolteR]

So be accurate - say, I support the death of unborn children. Not its just an embryo....

death of an embryo.
its hasnt even existed.
why should the poor parents pay out thousands for something that hasnt even started existing yet? when they can remove it before it becomes too emotional?

No ones telling them to stop, I'm saying people shouldnt kill their mistakes.

but its not thier faults, its the Condoms fault...

 

[gh0st]

death of an embryo.
its hasnt even existed.
why should the poor parents pay out thousands for something that hasnt even started existing yet? when they can remove it before it becomes too emotional?

An embryo exists... what the hell are you talking about? So because its not shitting and puking all over the place, its not a thing yet? "Poor parents"? Thats a loaded statement. They dont, adoption is not very expensive at all (not in WA state anyway). Somehow I doubt an abortion isnt an emotional experience. You dont seem to be applying any common sense to this argument so its really irritating reading your responses.

but its not thier faults, its the Condoms fault...

No, its their fault for taking a RISK that failed.

Theres a 99% chance of a condom working.
A 1% chance the condom will not work.

Theres a VERY SMALL chance the condom wont work. You acknolwedge that, because it says so on the back of the package. You take that risk, and if it blows up in your face you dont just kill the results like an irresponsible dipshit.

 

[KoreBolteR]

An embryo exists... what the hell are you talking about? So because its not shitting and puking all over the place, its not a thing yet? "Poor parents"? Thats a loaded statement. They dont, adoption is not very expensive at all (not in WA state anyway). Somehow I doubt an abortion isnt an emotional experience. You dont seem to be applying any common sense to this argument so its really irritating reading your responses..

well im sorry, but its my opinion. not everyone in the world agrees with you, im sorry to inform you... :hmph:

yeh the embryo does, but the baby doesnt.
it obviously is an emotional thing to do, but if the mother doesnt want to go through 9 months of pregnancy, its her choice!!. as long as she makes the decision early.

No, its their fault for taking a RISK that failed.

Theres a 99% chance of a condom working.
A 1% chance the condom will not work.

Theres a VERY SMALL chance the condom wont work. You acknolwedge that, because it says so on the back of the package. You take that risk, and if it blows up in your face you dont just kill the results like an irresponsible dipshit.

then i suggest people invent something that has a 100% succesful sex session, without having worries in your mind about having a baby. (without doing any operations that is).

if they were killing another persons embryo, i'd understand. but its thier own!

jesus , its the female whos going to have to go through this traumatic time. shall she ruin her life, or have a legal choice of stopping her depression or whatever. obviously the distressed woman would want to get rid of the embryo. and not go through with something that could end up with herself committing suicide. (to the extreme)

 

[bvasgm]

Hey hey hey hey hey...we don't need that sort of talk in this here thread. Anyway, I go back to the "it's just a bunch of cells" argument. That's exactly what it is immediately after conception...a bunch of little cells. It isn't anything else untill several weeks after. Anyway, In my opinion, it's not a kid until it can come out and be alive. Now I know what you're going to say: "What about preamture births?!!!11 Those babies can't live without special medical devices."..however..that's not what I mean. If it could be kept alive outside of a petre dish then it's a kid..not before. About the condom issue...When people use a condom they do accept a certain ammount of risk. A risk people generally overlook. However, they should not be forced to keep the "baby" if they don't want to. The risk they accept is weather or not the "baby" will be conceived, it's not weather or not they will keep the "baby". Also, sorry for any spelling/grammer mistakes..but it's late here..and I'm tired...