Another Insurgent Attack

[kmack]

A suicide car bomber detonated his explosives outside a hospital and a market today, killing over 100 Iraqi's and injuring over 130. The market was crowded due to the nice weather and there was a line outside the hopsital of men going in for physicals for jobs in the Iraqi police force and army. It seems that every week there are several deadly attacks (mostly directed at Iraqi citizens, and many specified on the Shi'ites) from insurgent suicide bombers. This must be affecting the moral of the Iraqi's and there is no shortage of insurgents. How long will this go on for? There is no signs of stopping anytime soon and we can hardly leave Iraq with this threat so active. Are we getting ourselves into a long and drawn out guerrilla war?
Another concern is a civil war, will Shi'ites lash out against the insurgents, if so, how do we support a Shi'ite controlled government and quell their attacks at the same time, this is speculation of course, but a very real threat.

 

[Raziaar]

Sad thing is... these people are still going to be killing innocents even after the last american presence leaves. They will still be targeting civilians of certain sub sects they don't like, as well as targeting people who try to involve themselves in the government or civilian protection(police officers, etc).

 

[KoreBolteR]

yup, these people can kill anybody now, these are terrorists, and are only called 'insurgents' because anti-coalition want them to be called that, and terrorists like these just can pin the blame on america pointing the finger "cos of them we killed those 100 people, we dont know why, but its because we felt like it. BUT we'll get away with it, because we can simply blame it on america".. :/

they really do it, because they can. sad world.

 

[Lemonking]

yup, these people can kill anybody now, these are terrorists, and are only called 'insurgents' because anti-coalition want them to be called that, and terrorists like these just can pin the blame on america pointing the finger "cos of them we killed those 100 people, we dont know why, but its because we felt like it. BUT we'll get away with it, because we can simply blame it on america".. :/

they really do it, because they can. sad world.

what anti-coalition?

 

[burner69]

yup, these people can kill anybody now, these are terrorists, and are only called 'insurgents' because anti-coalition want them to be called that, and terrorists like these just can pin the blame on america pointing the finger "cos of them we killed those 100 people, we dont know why, but its because we felt like it. BUT we'll get away with it, because we can simply blame it on america".. :/

they really do it, because they can. sad world.

Sorry buddy, but I'm gonna step in here and take the 'anti coalition' shoes here. Not because I hate our troops, I don't, I've got a friend out there fighting right now - it's just from experience if I try and justify and find meaning for these attacks I'm labelled anti-coaltion, so I may as well take thestand here to make this something of a debate.

It's sick, don't get me wrong, I'm a liberal pussy and hate war and killing, I just avoid beig idiotic enough to label the terrorst/insurgants/evil doers as 'pure evil' who only want to disrupt peace and kill people for the hell of it.

Right; listen carefully. The west have totally f**ked that country and it's people up many times over. Look at the old conflicts of the 80's and 90's, look at the UN sanctions and bombings that resulted in half a million dead Irais innocents, look at the laws they're already imposing on the Iraqis since the invasion - it is not wonder a group of people not only do not trust the coalition, but despise them. This is hatred neither you nor I can fathom, this is from loss of friends and family, constraint of belief, all through a network of lies and double crossing. The coalition are to some of these people what OBL is to the west, just multiplied several times.

When people start siding with the enemy they become the enemy. Whether we believe the new Iraqi government to be 'good' (if such a term exists) or not is irrelevent, these group of extremists don't, and they have good cause to. Imagine if OBL came along to your home town and installed his own government there; how likely are you to trust them, especially after his bombing camaign earlier killed some of your friends, and your cousin was arrested and tortured with no charge.

Until we start some diplomatic speech with these people, which thankfully is begginning to happen, these attacks will continue, just as they would if OBL tried starting a government up in your town.

Here's hoping they sort things out over there. :cheers:

Labelling them as brainwashed, motivationless, evil doers will not help the situation.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Labelling them as brainwashed, motivationless, evil doers will not help the situation.

Killing 100 innocent civilians doesnt either. When that happens, they deserve being recognized as: brainwashed, motivationless, evil doers.

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

what anti-coalition?

They'll be here presently...

I call em criminals. (And that's what the Iraqi's call them too.)

 

[burner69]

Killing 100 innocent civilians doesnt either. When that happens, they deserve being recognized as: brainwashed, motivationless, evil doers.

True. But it shows how strongly they believe in their cause, and should give us motivation to stop it from happening again; enforcing restrictions on Iraqi farmers to make them buy western goods, continuing to arrest without charge often innocent Iraqis, and so on and so forth does not help.

And seinfeld, they may deserve a lot, dosen't mean we should go along with it. It really dosen't help and you know it as well as me.

Sgt Shellback refuses to accept that an enemy of the west can have motivation, and anyone who tries to identify this is a criminal...

 

[Raziaar]

Sorry buddy, but I'm gonna step in here and take the 'anti coalition' shoes here. Not because I hate our troops, I don't, I've got a friend out there fighting right now - it's just from experience if I try and justify and find meaning for these attacks I'm labelled anti-coaltion, so I may as well take thestand here to make this something of a debate.

It's sick, don't get me wrong, I'm a liberal pussy and hate war and killing, I just avoid beig idiotic enough to label the terrorst/insurgants/evil doers as 'pure evil' who only want to disrupt peace and kill people for the hell of it.

Right; listen carefully. The west have totally f**ked that country and it's people up many times over. Look at the old conflicts of the 80's and 90's, look at the UN sanctions and bombings that resulted in half a million dead Irais innocents, look at the laws they're already imposing on the Iraqis since the invasion - it is not wonder a group of people not only do not trust the coalition, but despise them. This is hatred neither you nor I can fathom, this is from loss of friends and family, constraint of belief, all through a network of lies and double crossing. The coalition are to some of these people what OBL is to the west, just multiplied several times.

When people start siding with the enemy they become the enemy. Whether we believe the new Iraqi government to be 'good' (if such a term exists) or not is irrelevent, these group of extremists don't, and they have good cause to. Imagine if OBL came along to your home town and installed his own government there; how likely are you to trust them, especially after his bombing camaign earlier killed some of your friends, and your cousin was arrested and tortured with no charge.

Until we start some diplomatic speech with these people, which thankfully is begginning to happen, these attacks will continue, just as they would if OBL tried starting a government up in your town.

Here's hoping they sort things out over there. :cheers:

Labelling them as brainwashed, motivationless, evil doers will not help the situation.

So basically you're justifying their killing of innocents in a cold blooded manner as legitimate.

 

[burner69]

So basically you're justifying their killing of innocents in a cold blooded manner as legitimate.

I always get this, though I'd expect more from you Razier (spelt it wrong on purpose this time, I'm that mad :O )

No, not at all. I'm saying there IS a reason behind it, its not just mindless violence, and until we start addressing these reasons no progress will be made.

Before people go making offensive comments like "You're pro-terrorist" "You don't mind civilians being blown up" "You condone terrorist actions" please read the entire thread and take it all in.

Nowhere do I condone it. I always emphaise that I think it's sick. I'm just searching for meaning, and many people seem so offended by the concept that the enemy we're fighting has a motive they just like to slap the "enemy" label on anyone trying to search for a meaning, and call them unpatriotic. Grow up people.

 

[GhostFox]

I'm just searching for meaning, and many people seem so offended by the concept that the enemy we're fighting has a motive

Your problem is that you think these people need a reason or motivation. I always laugh when people say things like "Oh, this will only make the terrorists hate you more". They have already sworn to commit total genocide on a global scale to all non radical muslims. They plan to kill every non radical muslim in the world. How do they "hate you more"? Do they kill you twice? No matter the actions of any nation, the muslim extremists will still target them for simply not being radical muslim countries. The only policy the US could instill to placate the terrorists would be to murder all non muslims, and instill a theocracy government. Anything short of that is meaningless.

These people hate you with every fiber of their being simply because you breathe. Do you really think any political decision or govt. could really affect a hatred like that? There is no middle ground in this war because there is nothing to reason with. The only result they consider favorable is for all of us to be dead. Either we will win, or they will win. Either way, one group will have to be wiped off the face of the earth.

 

[burner69]

Not entirely true.

Only a small, although active, group over there believe in an all Muslim world.

I reccommend you searching the politics forum for Trons thread: The power of nightmares. Its a bbc documentary about the war on terror, and explains some intersting things about this war on terror.

 

[GhostFox]

Only a small, although active, group over there believe in an all Muslim world.

I agree. They are the ones who are terrorists.

 

[CptStern]

100 people slaughtered and some of you spew venom and hate but when your own government kills hundreds of thousands you say nothing


100 more nails added to the coffin that is iraq

 

[kmack]

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73902

Thought this related to my thread here, please think about it, dont flame.

 

[seinfeldrules]

100 people slaughtered and some of you spew venom and hate but when your own government kills hundreds of thousands you say nothing

Change the words around a little and we find ourselves in Stern's shoes.

 

[CptStern]

"....you say nothing"

 

[Raziaar]

I always get this, though I'd expect more from you Razier (spelt it wrong on purpose this time, I'm that mad :O )

No, not at all. I'm saying there IS a reason behind it, its not just mindless violence, and until we start addressing these reasons no progress will be made.

Before people go making offensive comments like "You're pro-terrorist" "You don't mind civilians being blown up" "You condone terrorist actions" please read the entire thread and take it all in.

Nowhere do I condone it. I always emphaise that I think it's sick. I'm just searching for meaning, and many people seem so offended by the concept that the enemy we're fighting has a motive they just like to slap the "enemy" label on anyone trying to search for a meaning, and call them unpatriotic. Grow up people.

I didn't say you're pro-terrorist, or you condone it. I'm saying you're trying to justify it as a legitimate reason to kill people. And thats what you were doing. There's a difference between them, you know.

 

[Calanen]

The reason behind the mindless violence predominantly, is that ex-Saddam cronies are unhappy they are not in power anymore to murder, torture, rape and steal from the countries treasury. They are not 'freedom fighters' with widespread popular support.

In addition, these terrorists are backed by elements of Syrian and Iranian intelligence, and Al-Quaeda. The terrorists said, dont vote, or you die. 8 million Iraqis still voted. The bulk of the people in Iraq, just want to go to work and go home, earn some cash. They did not vote for or support the terrorists. But they have to put up with them, and there is only so much the US and its allies can do to stop them.

But these terrorist cowards are not 'heroes' in any true sense of the word, even if they are 'heroes' of the loony left.

 

[HunterSeeker]

I didn't say you're pro-terrorist, or you condone it. I'm saying you're trying to justify it as a legitimate reason to kill people. And thats what you were doing. There's a difference between them, you know.

He was saying that they have a reason to kill people, not that it was legitimate. IMO killing is only justified if they try to kill you.

 

[Raziaar]

He was saying that they have a reason to kill people, not that it was legitimate. IMO killing is only justified if they try to kill you.

Oh thats real mature. You're saying a terrorist killing is justified if they try to kill me? Thats how I read that. Not the most intelligent thing to say.

And you just proved my point. you said that he said they have a reason to kill people. I assume anybody can have a reason, fabricated from thin air, but he said it because he thought it was a real reason. That makes it a 'LEGITIMATE' reason. And I say legitimate, under the defintion of it having logical reasoning.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

You're saying a terrorist killing is justified if they try to kill me? Thats how I read that. Not the most intelligent thing to say.

No, its not -- but its the toughest thing they can throw out ...

 

[Razor]

The reason behind the mindless violence predominantly, is that ex-Saddam cronies are unhappy they are not in power anymore to murder, torture, rape and steal from the countries treasury. They are not 'freedom fighters' with widespread popular support.

In addition, these terrorists are backed by elements of Syrian and Iranian intelligence, and Al-Quaeda. The terrorists said, dont vote, or you die. 8 million Iraqis still voted. The bulk of the people in Iraq, just want to go to work and go home, earn some cash. They did not vote for or support the terrorists. But they have to put up with them, and there is only so much the US and its allies can do to stop them.

But these terrorist cowards are not 'heroes' in any true sense of the word, even if they are 'heroes' of the loony left.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

The terrorists said, dont vote, or you die.

Hey, can we arrest P-Diddy then also?

... I mean, he told to me to vote or die, but still ...

 

[burner69]

The reason behind the mindless violence predominantly, is that ex-Saddam cronies are unhappy they are not in power anymore to murder, torture, rape and steal from the countries treasury. They are not 'freedom fighters' with widespread popular support.

Incorrect. A small minority of the groups there are doing that. Many are simply opposed to an invading force that has, in the past, and even today, kills hundreds of thousands of their people. They don't like those people taking power. They might be wrong, but that's what they believe.

In addition, these terrorists are backed by elements of Syrian and Iranian intelligence, and Al-Quaeda. The terrorists said, dont vote, or you die. 8 million Iraqis still voted. The bulk of the people in Iraq, just want to go to work and go home, earn some cash. They did not vote for or support the terrorists. But they have to put up with them, and there is only so much the US and its allies can do to stop them.

Al Quaeda barely exists. See the thread 'The power of nightmares'.

But these terrorist cowards are not 'heroes' in any true sense of the word, even if they are 'heroes' of the loony left.

Very few people say they do.
And saying that the left think they're heroes is wrong, insulting, and childish. That's like me saying the right think it's heroic and brave to imprison and torture, and frequently shoot innocent Iraqis

Oh thats real mature. You're saying a terrorist killing is justified if they try to kill me? Thats how I read that. Not the most intelligent thing to say.

Erm, no he didn't. He's saying they have a reason that they believe in.

And you just proved my point. you said that he said they have a reason to kill people. I assume anybody can have a reason, fabricated from thin air, but he said it because he thought it was a real reason. That makes it a 'LEGITIMATE' reason. And I say legitimate, under the defintion of it having logical reasoning.

So all past western activities that have killed thousands of innocents are fabricated out of thin air? They're making them up? Do you really think they're killing people out of jealousy? Or for kicks?

 

[burner69]

I didn't say you're pro-terrorist, or you condone it. I'm saying you're trying to justify it as a legitimate reason to kill people. And thats what you were doing. There's a difference between them, you know.

I don't think it's legitimate, and never said it was. I said that they have a reason to, that they believe in. I'm going one step above the crap the right spew out about "These people are jealous of freedom" which is simply a steaming pile of propaganda BS.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Oh thats real mature. You're saying a terrorist killing is justified if they try to kill me? Thats how I read that. Not the most intelligent thing to say.

No i was saying that we are not exactly walking the streets and killing people at random (well anymore) so they do NOT have a reason to kill anyone.

And you just proved my point. you said that he said they have a reason to kill people. I assume anybody can have a reason, fabricated from thin air, but he said it because he thought it was a real reason. That makes it a 'LEGITIMATE' reason. And I say legitimate, under the defintion of it having logical reasoning.

They have a real reason to kill people, personally I dont think they have enough reason to kill anyone but they disagree. If the killing is to stop we must adress this reason. And its more complex then they like to kill people. To beat your enemy you must understand him.

 

[burner69]

No i was saying that we are not exactly walking the streets and killing people at random (well anymore) so they do NOT have a reason to kill anyone.

Deaths of innocents, accidents, or not, are still happening. Both out in Iraqi streets, and within the prisons.

They have a real reason to kill people, personally I dont think they have enough reason to kill anyone but they disagree. If the killing is to stop we must adress this reason. And its more complex then they like to kill people. To beat your enemy you must understand him.

Well said.

 

[Razor]

http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/article.as...n.co.uk/mediaexportlive&ks=1&mc=5&ml=ma&lc=en

Al Queda are claiming responsibility for the suicide bomb.

 

[burner69]

http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/article.as...n.co.uk/mediaexportlive&ks=1&mc=5&ml=ma&lc=en

Al Queda are claiming responsibility for the suicide bomb.

Many groups now are using the name Al Quaeda simply because its well known in the west. Before 9/11 it is believed the name didn't even exist, and simply because Bush used that name OBLs group decided to take it.
I could be wrong, it could be that the original 'Al Queada' funded by OBL did this attack. I really don't know.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Before 9/11 it is believed the name didn't even exist, and simply because Bush used that name OBLs group decided to take it.

Incorrect. Another attempt to blame Bush for everything. For example, the 1998 embassy attacks were linked to Al Qaeda.

Many groups now are using the name Al Quaeda simply because its well known in the west.

Just because it doesnt fit your theory doesnt mean they were lying.

 

[kmack]

The reason behind the mindless violence predominantly, is that ex-Saddam cronies are unhappy they are not in power anymore to murder, torture, rape and steal from the countries treasury. They are not 'freedom fighters' with widespread popular support.

In addition, these terrorists are backed by elements of Syrian and Iranian intelligence, and Al-Quaeda. The terrorists said, dont vote, or you die. 8 million Iraqis still voted. The bulk of the people in Iraq, just want to go to work and go home, earn some cash. They did not vote for or support the terrorists. But they have to put up with them, and there is only so much the US and its allies can do to stop them.

But these terrorist cowards are not 'heroes' in any true sense of the word, even if they are 'heroes' of the loony left.

Yes, but they believed in Saddam, their way of life we cannot understand, so how can we judge? They now lost their jobs (and family members) during the US assault. Men they consider infidels took away their power and gave it to their sworn enemies. They can't put food on their table, they also have beliefs that we as christians or jews (don't lie and say you are muslim) could never begin to comprehend.

 

[jondy]

Incorrect. Another attempt to blame Bush for everything.

Uh, he didn't try and 'blame' Bush. He just pointed out what happened

 

[seinfeldrules]

Uh, he didn't try and 'blame' Bush. He just pointed out what happened

'

This is all part of the theory that conservatives invented terrorism to further political gains. Refer back to that 'documentary'.

 

[jondy]

EDIT: Nevermind, eh?

 

[Raziaar]

No i was saying that we are not exactly walking the streets and killing people at random (well anymore) so they do NOT have a reason to kill anyone.

I don't know *HOW* you meant that with that you said. What you said sounded like something directed at me. How you construed what you did just now, from that, I do not know.

I may have misunderstood, but it was easily misunderstandable, because it sounded damned well like something against me. Sounded nothing like what you just explained it as, and I don't see how burner can get that from what you said either.

 

[burner69]

Incorrect. Another attempt to blame Bush for everything. For example, the 1998 embassy attacks were linked to Al Qaeda.

OBL's group was. There's no evidence to suggest it was called Al Quaeda, it was just a name given to them by the west, which they happily took up because of the notority that came with it.

Just because it doesnt fit your theory doesnt mean they were lying.

I agree.

 

[burner69]

'

This is all part of the theory that conservatives invented terrorism to further political gains. Refer back to that 'documentary'.

Terrorism wasn't invented by them, perhaps magnified in some areas. But that 'documentary' (I like the use of 's) does point out that the threat is vastly blown out of proportion, and does few people other than terrorists and the republicans any good...

*Awaits photos of 9/11 and to be told that terrorism can never be blown out of proportion etc*

 

[seinfeldrules]

OBL's group was. There's no evidence to suggest it was called Al Quaeda, it was just a name given to them by the west, which they happily took up because of the notority that came with it.

But the name was given to them after the 1998 bombings, it isnt like Bush was the one to invent the name. Its not like Clinton was going to go to Bin Laden and ask him what his terror group should be called, I'm sure the name was picked for some reason.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Well, thats not true Seinfeld.

Osama Bin Ladens group during the bombings, before it received the title of Al-Qaeda was called, Al-Happy Happiness von Puppy love.