Ban on Public Burqas

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Matorbogl

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Article put in spoiler below to save space.
By HAROLD HECKLE said:
MADRID — Spanish lawmakers will debate barring burqas in public, joining other European countries considering similar moves on the grounds that the body-covering garments are degrading to women, the leading opposition party said Sunday.

Top officials of the ruling Socialist Party have indicated they will support the proposal by the opposition Popular Party, making a ban likely unless the country's highest court rules it unconstitutional.

A debate in Spain's lower house has been set by the Popular Party for Tuesday or Wednesday, the party said.

No vote will be scheduled until after the debate, and Spain's Parliament usually goes on vacation for a month starting in late July or early August.

Justice Minister Francisco Caamano said on June 15 that garments like the burqa are "hardly compatible with human dignity."

Head-covering veils would not be included in a ban as they form a part of traditional Spanish dress, with women often covering their heads with a garment called a mantilla, especially during church services in the south of the country.

Other European nations that have debated regulating the use of body-covering burqas or face-covering niqabs include Belgium, the Netherlands and France.

A notable exception has been Britain, where Immigration Minister Damian Green described calls to outlaw such garb as "un-British."

"Telling people what they can and can't wear, if they're just walking down the street, is a rather un-British thing to do," he told the Sunday Telegraph.

"We're a tolerant and mutually respectful society."

France's lower house of parliament overwhelmingly approved a ban on wearing burqa-style Islamic veils on July 13 in an effort to define and protect French values, a move that angered many in the country's large Muslim community.

The French ban on burqas and niqabs goes before Senate in September amid predictions it will pass, but its biggest hurdle could come when France's constitutional watchdog scrutinizes it later.

Britain and France have sizeable Muslim minorities that they have sometimes struggled to intergrate. Differences over dress — in particular the stark-looking niqab, usually an all-back garment which leaves only the eyes visible — often serve as touchstones for wider discussions about Islam, identity, and immigration.

A British Conservative lawmaker has just tabled a French-style bill that would outlaw the niqab, but the bill hasn't received any support for the ruling Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition and isn't likely to get very far.

Belgium's lower house approved a ban on face-covering veils, but it must still be ratified by its upper chamber.

The Netherlands debated banning burqas four years ago and may yet outlaw attire that is considered as demeaning to women.

Switzerland last year banned minarets from where Muslim are called to prayer following a national referendum last year.

Spain has about 1 million Muslims in the nation of 47 million, with most living in the northeastern region of Catalonia and the southern region Andalucia. However, burqas are rarely seen.

Spain's second-largest city of Barcelona in June banned the use of burqas and niqabs in municipal buildings, joining a handful of small towns and cities nearby that have taken similar steps.

Mansur Escudero, spokesman for Spain's Islamic Commission, said in June that there is no religious mandate for Muslim women to wear burqas and the garment was "extravagant," but criticized government efforts to ban the outfit because he said women should be able to exercise free choice in how they dress.

Associated Press Writer Raphael Satter in London contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
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How do you feel about the push going on in several European nations to ban the burqa?
 
It's a tricky situation. If there are existing laws prohibiting face-coverings in certain secure places, I don't think religious exceptions should be made. But people should be able to wear whatever they want in public. I suppose this is meant to counteract an obvious form of oppression. Except, it is ingrained in another culture, so what right does a government have if everyone in the culture wears these willingly? I would say none.

So no, I don't agree with a public ban, but I also don't agree with making exceptions. Meaning, if a privately owned business has a no-mask policy (something very understandable for a bank), it would be fair to forbid the donning of burkas on customers and employees.

I remember also hearing about teachers being required to remove burkas. I can also agree with this. Religious freedom is an important right, but when it impedes on your ability in the workplace it should be forbidden. And yes, I would say covering your face makes a considerable difference in teaching.
 
I disagree completely with any dictation of what one should or shouldn't wear. Therefore, I disagree with both the burqa and any attempt made to ban them.

Head-covering veils would not be included in a ban as they form a part of traditional Spanish dress, with women often covering their heads with a garment called a mantilla, especially during church services in the south of the country.
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Also, this is ridiculous. It's totally discriminatory to ban one but not the other.
 
I am more curious about what the rule is with those who have extreme facial deformation. If someone has had a large portion of their face removed because of cancer or an accident, it is illegal for them to cover that with something?
 
KiplingsCat said:
Also, this is ridiculous. It's totally discriminatory to ban one but not the other.
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Looks like a mantilla doesn't cover your face. It says "head-covering veils would not be included" in the article, seems to me that mentioning the "because of mantillas" is poor journalism.

ZT said:
I am more curious about what the rule is with those who have extreme facial deformation. If someone has had a large portion of their face removed because of cancer or an accident, it is illegal for them to cover that with something?
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That's an interesting point. :O
 
If people aren't allowed to wear nothing, why should they be allowed to wear everything?
 
Wow what a surprise. Bunch of governments trying to micromanage people's lives and tell them what they may or may not do. Banning burqas is the same as banning crucifixes or bibles. Completely wrong and religious persecution.

But yet again, like I've said before, this is less about race and religion, more about the all seeing cameras being able to identify you. Facial recognition software is getting pretty advanced and going into widespread use. Government hates what it cannot monitor and control.

Same tactics as SB1070. They market it as a ban on Burqas when its a ban on hiding your identity. They are able to get public support for banning burqas but not the other one. With SB1070 people here support it because they think "yeah deport them messicans" but it's really an assault on their freedoms too by forcing them to carry papers. These bills and laws are 'wolves in sheeps clothing'
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
Wow what a surprise. Bunch of governments trying to micromanage people's lives and tell them what they may or may not do. Banning burqas is the same as banning crucifixes or bibles. Completely wrong and religious persecution.
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The hijab is not being targeted, only the specific burka that covers the entire body and face. Absolutely, a law like this may be used for disguised religious oppression. But I can see justification other than racism or "big brother" for not wanting to allow this type of covering in private or secure locations, especially banks. In public is another story, but what's your response to that?
 
Erestheux said:
The hijab is not being targeted, only the specific burka that covers the entire body and face. Absolutely, a law like this may be used for disguised religious oppression. But I can see justification other than racism or "big brother" for not wanting to allow this type of covering in private or secure locations, especially banks. In public is another story, but what's your response to that?
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Then keep it to those secure areas, as it is now. Any restriction on individual freedom is wrong.
 
What about my individual freedom to stroll through a crowded shopping mall with explosives strapped to my body?
 
unozero said:
freedom for the sake of freedom doesn't work in the world we live in
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"Freedom isn't free at all, that it comes with the highest of costs. The cost of blood!"
300gorgo2a.JPG


heh heh... but, what did you say?
 
unozero said:
freedom for the sake of freedom doesn't work in the world we live in
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OH YEAH. Those damn burqas worn freely in a democratic state are causing so much chaos and disorder right now. :LOL:

Obviously you don't have the freedom to infringe on someone elses rights. Bombing a mall or harming someone is prohibited because it infringes on the victims rights.

Measures like this are clearly a government grab of freedom and should not be supported no matter how much somebody 'hates the damn muslims' or is scared a burqa wearer might rob a bank. Newsflash- someone who is going to commit that kind of crime wouldn't care that the law says no burqas/masks in the first place. They'd wear it into the bank anyway. It's the same (non)logic people make for gun control
 
Emporius said:
What about my individual freedom to stroll through a crowded shopping mall with explosives strapped to my body?
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can be accomplished by wearing a muumuu, judicial robe, or poncho. targeting the burka and not the others for that reason is discriminatory


canada is drawing up a plan to ban burkas under certain conditions. ie: woman has to identify herself at a licensing bureau etc
 
It's a total non-issue though, there's only a handful of people that wear one. Seems like wasted effort, oppressed women will still be oppressed, burqa or no burqa. Way to fight the symptom.
 
well then unless you're wearing a muumuu or judicial robe you're going to be shot multiple times
 
Erestheux said:
Do you disagree with that or something?
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? I havent given my opinion either way so why are you assuming I support it?

and it really doesnt matter what we think. we can only given an overgeneralised sentiment based on our limited frame of reference. for example; would you say that there are no circumstances where someone should be forced to remove an item of clothing? methinks (hey I can assume too) from your previous posts that your answer would be no. however if I were to ask you "do people deserve a fair trial" to which I'm again assuming you'd say yes. at this point I would have to point out that wearing a burka IS an infringement on rights. rights that are also very clearly spelled out in your constitution and my charter of freedoms:

the right for the accused to confront their accuser

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/right-of-accused-to-confront-witnesses.html

example: a muslim woman accuses someone of rape. the accused has the right to face his accuser. a face covering is contrary to that. so does her right to anonimity trump the rights of the accused?
 
Christ, Stern, did you notice the question mark? That indicates a question, for future reference. I thought the only reason you'd mention it is because you disagree, but I asked because you didn't specify. With a question. Which you didn't answer.

So just answer it. Do you disagree with forbidding face-coverings in places such as licensing bureaus?

Great anecdote, but I'm not going to answer questions if you ignore my own.
 
Relax bro. I think his point was it's not a black/white issue as your question implies.
 
I would love to wear a burqa for a day. It'd be interesting to know what it's actually like. Some Islamic women claim that they really like to wear it...I don't see how, but I've never tried one. If you ask me, they get more attention drawn to them than anyone else. Also, what about male students wearing face veils on the Syrian campus?

(Seriously though, Syria is being silly. What that rule will probably result in is loads of Islamic girls not being allowed to attend college and further their education because their fathers/brothers/husbands won't want them showing their faces in public).
 
Yeah I realize it's a complicated issue and all, but I don't think saying "it doesn't matter what we think" is really an answer. You can still have an opinion on an issue.

My stance is that banning facial coverings in public is an unjust restriction on individual freedom. However, if a specific situation justifies for it to be forbidden, such as in a bank, licensing office, or courtroom, then I see no problems placing restrictions regardless of how it may affect religious or cultural heritage.
 
Firstly, I do agree with that burqas are degrading to women and symbolise their separation from the rest of society. They are, quite literally, a barrier between women and other human beings. They imply that a woman should be ashamed of her body, and keep herself to herself. I found a quote from Herve Jaubert, the man who escaped from Dubai in an abaya and veil (slightly less concealing than a burqa), quite revealing:

"I decided to disguise myself as a woman and then I became a ghost. When you are covered from head to toe in an abaya and veil nobody talks to you, nobody looks at you. Wearing the abaya nobody bothered me, it’s like I never existed. That’s the best disguise you can find because even a police officer cannot talk to you.”
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Source

Secondly, Erestheux is right. Many if not most women who wear the burqa do so voluntarily, and the state has no right to impose restrictions on what they can wear simply out of principle. Even most of the women who wear the burqa against their will are probably not actively coerced into doing so.

Thirdly, PvtRyan is also right. I think there are about 1000 or so women in France who actually wear the burqa, while tens of thousands of Muslims will be pissed off by the ban. It's therefore likely that the ban there will cause much more trouble than it prevents.
 
Erestheux said:
Christ, Stern, did you notice the question mark? That indicates a question, for future reference. I thought the only reason you'd mention it is because you disagree, but I asked because you didn't specify. With a question. Which you didn't answer.
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you didnt ask a question you posed a question in the form of a statement:

Erestheux said:
Do you disagree with that or something?
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Erestheux said:
So just answer it. Do you disagree with forbidding face-coverings in places such as licensing bureaus?
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I'm not going to answer something that you framed as a black and white issue. I gave you my answer but you're too busy looking for a black and white answer to a problem that isnt black and white. ( as the example I gave proves ). if you took the time to read what was posted instead of going off all half cocked like you usually do we'd avoid these sort of confrontations.

Erestheux said:
Great anecdote, but I'm not going to answer questions if you ignore my own.
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I've given my answer; there is no black and white answer. now it's your turn
 
No Limit said:
Relax bro. I think his point was it's not a black/white issue as your question implies.
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No, it's just Stern arguing like Stern. That is: in a frustratingly roundabout fashion.

The question's not hard to answer. Stern's just pretending he doesn't have a personal opinion and that what he thinks "doesn't matter" (sure, bro)... I guess to make his posts seem objective or something.
 
Well, Erestheux did ask a pretty simple question. What he got in response was a loaded assumption and a lecture.

Everybody has opinions, so I don't know why Stern is trying to disguise his. He doesn't need to come out and fully (not) support measures like this and could explain how he finds merit to both sides of the argument. Instead, he does these little cop-outs like "what we think doesn't matter", which looks to me like an attempt to jettison any personal accountability in the discussion. That's lame as hell and it's understandably irritating to the person he's speaking to, because I don't know if we're having an argument for the sake of it or having a genuine clash in personal views.

But hey, what the hell. Nobody has to please me or anything.
 
Absinthe said:
Well, Erestheux did ask a pretty simple question. What he got in response was a loaded assumption and a lecture.

Everybody has opinions, so I don't know why Stern is trying to disguise his. He doesn't need to come out and fully (not) support measures like this and could explain how he finds merit to both sides of the argument. Instead, he does these little cop-outs like "what we think doesn't matter", which looks to me like an attempt to jettison any personal accountability in the discussion. That's lame as hell and it's understandably irritating to the person he's speaking to, because I don't know if we're having an argument for the sake of it or having a genuine clash in personal views.

But hey, what the hell. Nobody has to please me or anything.
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or anyone for that matter, right?



I'm not trying to disguise anything. it's as No Limit said: it's not a black and white issue there are no easy answers. but if I must spell it out for you, which I feel I must because this isnt the first time you've taken interest in my pov; sometimes it's not ok to strip someone of their religious freedom (banning burkas) and other times it's ok to strip someone of their religious freedom (right of the accused to meet their accuser face to face)

so really what's to clarify?
 
But why get irritated? There are some members here that are irritating but I don't think that's the case for most people here. Just address the point whether or not you like the answer you got.
 
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