Big time lawsuits brewing between Valve and Vivendi

[SFLUFAN]

He can't ignore a summary judgement - that will be grounds for criminal prosecution.

A summary judgement is a judgement a judge makes in a case without a full trial hearing. Both sides present their cases and the judge makes the judgement on the spot based on the evidence presented.

 

[UKchaos2]

I dont think this will delay the game. Valve might just have to play royalties to VU on every Steam copy sold.

 

[Democritus]

He can't ignore a summary judgement - that will be grounds for criminal prosecution.

A summary judgement is a judgement a judge makes in a case without a full trial hearing. Both sides present their cases and the judge makes the judgement on the spot based on the evidence presented.

That's what I thought. Doug shooting off his mouth, though it would be interesting to see if he can do his job from prison.

 

[SFLUFAN]

^^^
And I think that will be the crux of the out of court settlement. VUG will be more than content with that.

 

[maximus0402]

to elaborate on the summary judgement explination. Basically the judge looks at a summary from each side on what there stand is and what they think, and if it is clear to the judge who is right or who is wrong he will make a decision right then, with the actualy details of the decision and what happens from there on is held off until another date but all those other sessions listed on dates will be wiped out and are not going to happen because the decision was made. BUT if a decision could not be made at this oct 8 date, then all those other events following it all the way up to trial in 2005 WILL happen and will suck for us. The best thing to happen is for this thing to be judged and decided for either side oct 8, that will get this game out one way or another.

 

[PvtRyan]

Didn't the Blizzard founders left Blizzard because of VUG?

 

[Llyranor]

Didn't Black Isle studios DIE because of VUG?

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Wow... I allways thought VUG sucked... but Wow..... :x




Seriously, I will be glad when valve is with activision.

 

[SFLUFAN]

You're making the assumption that VUG is the bad guy in this situation.

Valve could equally be at fault for not fully revealing their intentions during the contract negotiations. Fraud is a very serious offense in the commercial law world.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

You're making the assumption that VUG is the bad guy in this situation.

Valve could equally be at fault for not fully revealing their intentions during the contract negotiations. Fraud is a very serious offense in the commercial law world.

I don't really see how it was fraud though. Legally I mean, I mighta been a little bit sneaky...

In the contract they were given the right to sell games online. Now vivendi are pissed off because they are actually going ahead and doing it. Its not valves fault they had such short sight they didnt see it coming....

 

[The Mullinator]

You're making the assumption that VUG is the bad guy in this situation.

Valve could equally be at fault for not fully revealing their intentions during the contract negotiations. Fraud is a very serious offense in the commercial law world.

Vivendi has pulled enough crap in the past to make them seem like the badguy in this case, they may not be in this particular situation but it certainly seems likely.

 

[PvtRyan]

Vivendi has pulled enough crap in the past to make them seem like the badguy in this case, they may not be in this particular situation but it certainly seems likely.

Plus, they're french. Nuff said

j/k

 

[Xcellere]

My guess is that Vivendi saw the potential for lost sales because of Steam. Steam is going to cut right into their profits, big time.

I say f*** Vivendi, they had nothing to do with the creation of HL2. Valve made it, financed it, and promoted it. All Vivendi would have to do is physically publish it, and watch the money roll in. Even if they did have a contract, I say f*** them. Valve deserves all the cash that HL2 generates.

 

[Korgoth]

Sorry if this was already talked about, didn't bother reading all the pages in this thread. But if i'm not mistaken, didn't fragmaster or someone hint to a big lawsuite a long long time ago, and we all just kind of jumped around to different conclusions that it might have been because havok code that was leaked with the stolen build, or possibly miles sound code or something similar? I know I remember discussing this a long time ago.

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Sorry if this was already talked about, didn't bother reading all the pages in this thread. But if i'm not mistaken, didn't fragmaster or someone hint to a big lawsuite a long long time ago, and we all just kind of jumped around to different conclusions that it might have been because havok code that was leaked with the stolen build, or possibly miles sound code or something similar? I know I remember discussing this a long time ago.

I can't remember if it was hinted at by anyone. But I do remember the forums discussing the possibility of a lawsuit due to the havok code..

I think someone must of hinted tho... its not the sort of thing you just decide to discuss......


Could be.. could be...

 

[DigiQ8]

I hope this dont effect the HL2 release...

 

[SFLUFAN]

"I say f*** Vivendi, they had nothing to do with the creation of HL2. Valve made it, financed it, and promoted it. All Vivendi would have to do is physically publish it, and watch the money roll in. Even if they did have a contract, I say f*** them. Valve deserves all the cash that HL2 generates."

I gotta disagree with you here Eric.

You risk massive retaliation by VUG involving delay of retail store distribution as well as tons of injunctions filed to stop the Steam release and of course they'll bury Valve in legal paperwork that will take up valuable resources.

No - it's NOT in Valve's best interests to do so. Think like a CEO and you'll see why you wouldn't want to do this

 

[skarbus]

"Sierra and VUG would later learn that these statements were flatly false...Incredibly, Counterclaim Defendant Newell also stated that he "could not understand how one can make money online today," plainly with the intention to falsely imply that Valve had no present or future strategy to engage in widespread online distribution of the games. This misleading half-truth was Newell's deliberate concealment of the extent to which Valve intended through the parties' negotiations to appropriate the substantial value of the distribution rights to Valve, rather than to Sierra and VUG."

If that's the best VUG have to go on, then that's pretty poor. You can engage in widespread online distribution of a game and still not plan to make any profit off of it. Gabe's statement isn't misleading at all. Did anyone here actually think Valve would make more money total from Steam sales than from retail sales? They may make more money per copy, but Steam sales will be only a fraction of how many copies the game will sell at actual stores. There was plenty of doubt that they would even make a profit from it at all.

 

[Xcellere]

You risk massive retaliation by VUG involving delay of retail store distribution as well as tons of injunctions filed to stop the Steam release and of course they'll bury Valve in legal paperwork that will take up valuable resources.

No - it's NOT in Valve's best interests to do so. Think like a CEO and you'll see why you wouldn't want to do this

Of course, when I said that, I meant if we lived in a perfect world where court entanglements and lawyers were nonexistant, Valve should win out.

But, being we live in this world, a deal should be brokered so no one gets screwed.

 

[gatts666]

ummmm

Ummmm one thing im thinking with all this fighting between Vivendi and Valve. WONT this game be delayed??
WHY? because valve sent the RC them so they can say ITS GOOD TO GO GOLD??? with all this crap, what makes you think that vu will do valve the favor and say YES ITS GOOD??

 

[The Mullinator]

If that's the best VUG have to go on, then that's pretty poor. You can engage in widespread online distribution of a game and still not plan to make any profit off of it. Gabe's statement isn't misleading at all. Did anyone here actually think Valve would make more money total from Steam sales than from retail sales? They may make more money per copy, but Steam sales will be only a fraction of how many copies the game will sell at actual stores. There was plenty of doubt that they would even make a profit from it at all.

Another thing to add to that was that Gabe said according to the article "could not understand how one can make money online today." Well that was in September of 2000, and Gabe said "today", well its not September 2000 now is it? Things can change extremelly fast in business and especially the online world.

 

[Korgoth]

I can't remember if it was hinted at by anyone. But I do remember the forums discussing the possibility of a lawsuit due to the havok code..

I think someone must of hinted tho... its not the sort of thing you just decide to discuss......


Could be.. could be...

Yeah thats what I was thinking. For some reason I keep thinking it was talked about in fragmaster's famous "goodbye" thread, and that we all kind of dismissed it at first, but then started to question if it was possible.
I remember though, for whatever reason it came about, none of us knew who exactly the parties involved in the lawsuite were. We knew valve of course, but the rest was pure speculation on our part.

 

[SFLUFAN]

Because if VU does NOT release the game, they risk losing THEIR retail store sales.

VUG has just as much to lose in this as does Valve - they won't be so foolish as to prevent Half Life 2 from going into retail stores at the very least. Steam distribution is another matter entirely.

 

[Stereo]

I hope this dont effect the HL2 release...

It shouldn't because this law suit has been argued over for a while now. Unless, that is, say it caused the original delay from September 30th last year.

If the lawsuit does effect the release date, then Valve can just choose to release the game via steam with Vivendi's name on it. That would keep with their original contract and keep the customers happy. And after all - business is about the customers.

 

[mortiz]

Gah couldn't this law suit have been handled before Half-Life 2 was finished, like in the past year we've been sat around waiting for it? VALVe announced their plans for steam well over a year ago, before the original September release date if I'm not mistaken, so Vivendi are playing really dumb if they're trying to say VALVe mislead VU:Games about STEAM, all Vivendi had to do was check any internet forum or news site about HL2 and they would have seen plastered all over them comments from VALVe about their plans for STEAM. Either VU is really stupid or they're pulling their case from out of their arses.

Don't forget though, the primary reason for this trial is to do with lost revenues suffered by VALVe at the hands of Sierra licensing VALVE games.
.

 

[The Mullinator]

Yeah thats what I was thinking. For some reason I keep thinking it was talked about in fragmaster's famous "goodbye" thread, and that we all kind of dismissed it at first, but then started to question if it was possible.
I remember though, for whatever reason it came about, none of us knew who exactly the parties involved in the lawsuite were. We knew valve of course, but the rest was pure speculation on our part.

I suspected that relations between Vivendi and Valve must have been pretty strained and that a lawsuit may not be unlikely ever since I heard that Valve was planning on getting a new publisher once their contract with Vivendi is done, and I heard that more than a year ago. I don't think Fragmaster said anything about it in his post though.

 

[SAJ]

The most important point to come out of this is that digital distribution(in this case, STEAM) has publishers VERY worried.
And quite rightly to, direct digital distribution has the potential to put publishers out of business(and not before time, imo).

For the past decade ,publishers have been the gatekeepers of commercial success, purely because they had a monopoly on distribution and publicity.
Without a powerful publishing deal , all the talent and imagination in the world would not be enough for software companies to turn a profit. You can have all the best ideas and execute them better than anyone else, but without the ability to distribute your concept and produce marketing for it, those ideas will not translate into sales.
Publishers have always been keenly aware of the power that any monopoly on distribution and maketing holds and have always sought to aggressively maximise their leverage from the power of a process that adds nothing to the value of the product(s) that they publish.
That business model is about to become as extinct as the dodo, publishers (such as VUG) are quite well aware of this,and are fighting a fierce(some would say futile) rearguard action against the coming tide.

If you dont believe me , compare this lawsuit(or rather, the attitudes that underline it) to what has happened with digital music distribution.For years , the music companies(publishers by another name) resisted the very idea that digital distribution was compatable with their business plans , but very recently we have a deluge of legal download sites for music.

It is my strongly held belief that we are no more than two years away from such a revolution for the games industry,and VUG`s action suggest nothing more than stalling tactics while they struggle to restructure to face the changes ahead.

*rant mode off* Whew!!

 

[soul]

I read through that article, and I don't see anything even remotely suggesting that HL2 will be delayed. I could even make an arguement that this will get HL2 out faster.

Sierra/VUG doesn't want to lose money to Steam, so they are trying to get a judge to say that Valve can't release via Steam. All the while, Sierra/VUG is pumping out the CDs/boxes/manuals/etc to get them on the shelves before the October 8th decision. With retail copies sitting on the shelves, and Valve unable to sell any copies via Steam, Sierra/VUG has just won, regardless of what the judge actually decides.

All this is pure 100% speculation, and also based off the assumption that there is an injunction prohibiting Valve from releasing via Steam until the October 8th ruling, so I could be way off base. But, unfortunately, only time will tell.

 

[Democritus]

Because if VU does NOT release the game, they risk losing THEIR retail store sales.

VUG has just as much to lose in this as does Valve - they won't be so foolish as to prevent Half Life 2 from going into retail stores at the very least. Steam distribution is another matter entirely.

True, but I CAN see Vivendi delaying the approval of the RC until after the Oct. 8th court date. Whether the game comes out Oct. 10 or Oct 24 won't matter to them.

 

[The Mullinator]

The most important point to come out of this is that digital distribution(in this case, STEAM) has publishers VERY worried.
And quite rightly to, direct digital distribution has the potential to put publishers out of business(and not before time, imo).

For the past decade ,publishers have been the gatekeepers of commercial success, purely because they had a monopoly on distribution and publicity.
Without a powerful publishing deal , all the talent and imagination in the world would not be enough for software companies to turn a profit. You can have all the best ideas and execute them better than anyone else, but without the ability to distribute your concept and produce marketing for it, those ideas will not translate into sales.
Publishers have always been keenly aware of the power that any monopoly on distribution and maketing holds and have always sought to aggressively maximise their leverage from the power of a process that adds nothing to the value of the product(s) that they publish.
That business model is about to become as extinct as the dodo, publishers (such as VUG) are quite well aware of this,and are fighting a fierce(some would say futile) rearguard action against the coming tide.

If you dont believe me , compare this lawsuit(or rather, the attitudes that underline it) to what has happened with digital music distribution.For years , the music companies(publishers by another name) resisted the very idea that digital distribution was compatable with their business plans , but very recently we have a deluge of legal download sites for music.

It is my strongly held belief that we are no more than two years away from such a revolution for the games industry,and VUG`s action suggest nothing more than stalling tactics while they struggle to restructure to face the changes ahead.

*rant mode off* Whew!!

I couldn't agree more with absolutely everything you said. That is the exact same opinion I have had when it comes to publishers of both the music and game industries for a long time now.

The great thing about it is that the publishers will no longer be able to inflate prices and limit developers like they have so often done in the past.

 

[Xcellere]

SAJ said it perfectly. Personally, I think it's fantastic that the games industry will adopt the Developer---->Customer model and gain 100% of the profit for themselves, cutting out the middleMEN.

 

[mortiz]

I read through that article, and I don't see anything even remotely suggesting that HL2 will be delayed. I could even make an arguement that this will get HL2 out faster.

Sierra/VUG doesn't want to lose money to Steam, so they are trying to get a judge to say that Valve can't release via Steam. All the while, Sierra/VUG is pumping out the CDs/boxes/manuals/etc to get them on the shelves before the October 8th decision. With retail copies sitting on the shelves, and Valve unable to sell any copies via Steam, Sierra/VUG has just won, regardless of what the judge actually decides.

All this is pure 100% speculation, and also based off the assumption that there is an injunction prohibiting Valve from releasing via Steam until the October 8th ruling, so I could be way off base. But, unfortunately, only time will tell.

Why is VALVe unable to sell copies via STEAM? As far as I am aware VALVe hasn't had an injunction put on them by the courts to say they're not allowed to distribute Half-Life 2 via STEAM.

 

[FISKER_Q]

Didn't the Blizzard founders left Blizzard because of VUG?

I believe so.

I've never really been fond of Vivendi, i hope Valve wins.

Getting away from Vivendi could prove only to be an advantage for us.

And Gabe saying that he doesn't think online stores are worth anything(or whatever he said) doesn't mean shit.

Microsoft said the same the internet, and they were wrong.

 

[evolutionorbust]

I didn't read the whole thread, sorry if this came up.

It looks like Vivendi bought into a bad situation with Sierra. Sierra's the one Valve originally sued, and the ones who originally sued back. And anyone who's read Stephen Levy's Hackers knows how Ken Williams, the founder of Sierra, feels about game programmers and their rights to their work. If he's still in charge, and I have no idea if he is, I pin the blame solely on him.

Also, there's no reason for this to effect the release date. All that would happen would be Valve would have to keep extra-careful notes on how much money they make off of Steam, and if the case goes against them, they'll owe that to Sierra.

 

[NetWarriorDan]

Is this why Condition Zero sucked so much. Because Valve had to make games. Good or bad.

 

[Hyperion2010]

I agree, **** VU. VU are greedy bastards, so are the folks at valve, but they have the right to be, they made the game FFS! I love steam its the best idea ever for patching etc. W/o steam css, cs, etc would not be nearly as successful. VU should get out of Valve's work with steam as its says, its completely beyond the scope of their agreements, so, keep the **** out! As this is going im buying from valve not VU. If you havent noticed I hate VU, theyre turing the gaming industry into the music industry, go valve, independent label all the way!

EDIT: and oh, sorry VU, HL2 is already on my computer! HAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
They arent gonna win that one, haha.

EDIT EDIT: Also, how is it morally right that VU should have HL as their IP, valve made the damn game, it was their intelectual ideas and hard work that even made it possible for VU to be able to bitch about this!
(LOL!)

 

[Xcellere]

"In court filings, Sierra/VUG says that the current distribution of Half-Life 2 via Steam exceeds the scope of the current software publishing agreement between the two parties. It is apparently seeking the court's assistance in compelling Valve not to use Steam as an avenue of distribution."

Bastards. Absolute bastards. Here Valve has the chance to double their profits, and these assholes are looking to cut them off at the pass and make more money for themselves, even though they've had no input into the creation or marketing of HL2.

 

[Dr. Freeman]

hmm...well im sure us gamers don't care nearly enough about this legal mumbo-jumbo but one thing is for sure, Half Life became a success under Valve and for VU to somehow come out of this with the rights to the HL series would be hugely sad news for gamers everywhere

whatever happens, i hope Valve are able to retain the rights to the HL series.

 

[Incitatus]

Lol google owns

Zilly, Thomas Samuel
Born 1935 in Detroit, MI

Federal Judicial Service:
U. S. District Court, Western District of Washington
Nominated by Ronald Reagan on February 16, 1988, to a seat vacated by Walter T. McGovern; Confirmed by the Senate on April 19, 1988, and received commission on April 20, 1988. Assumed senior status on January 1, 2004.

Education:
University of Michigan, B.A., 1956

Cornell Law School, J.D., 1962

Professional Career:
U.S. Naval Reserve Lieutenant (J.G.), 1956-1962
Active duty, 1956-1959
Private practice, Seattle, Washington, 1962-1988
Judge pro tem, Seattle Municipal Court, Washington, 1972-1980

Race or Ethnicity: White

Gender: Male

I hope mr. Zilly doesn't mind, but it's publicly available over the internet anyway.

Go Valve

 

[MetalliMyers]

Speaking of Copyright Infringment, maybe you should have just linked the article.