Crazy Conservative Lady creams self over movie 300's jihadist parallel

[Sulkdodds]

Could you be any more ignorant?

Could you be any more vague?

Maybe you should explain your statements. That way, they would be of actual use to other people.

Yes, I know he's deliberately drawing a parallel between 6th-century Islam and modern Islam - if that's what you're saying - but CrazyCracka seemed to take it as a specific indictment of all modern muslims - "the ones who are doing all heinous things Frank cries about". It's not, and though it does seek to draw a more general parallel between "6th century barbarism" and savagery in our own millenium, I found Cracka's response a profoundly odd one.

Or maybe that's not what you mean at all? Maybe I'm ignorant in some other way. Pity I can't tell from your post. I guess there's no way for me to correct my oversight.

 

[Bob_Marley]

I had no idea how popular this "moonbat" thing was. I swear to God I had never heard of it until roughly two weeks ago.

Seriously, was this an overnight thing? Couldn't they have spent a bit more time coming up with something slightly less nonsensical?

According to wikipedia:

According to an article by New York Times language maven William Safire, the term was first used by the famous science fiction author Robert A. Heinlein in 1947.

The first documented use of the term in a modern political context was in 1999, by National Review columnist Jonah Goldberg.

Personally I'd never come across it before I read this thread.

 

[PvtRyan]

That's because as most American's (and people in general) are guilty of, is of seeing everything through their own eyes (glasses).

Here's a real shocker, you may want to sit down:
People in other countries have different cultures, different ideas of what is "right" and what is "wrong". Who are you to say you're right and they are wrong? I guarantee there are just as many wingnuts like yourself in other countries, who say the exact same thing about us.

Also, you are putting EVERY Muslim into that category as Frank did, and that is pure ignorance. The right wing neo-fascists in the Muslim world are a minority - you know the ones who are doing all heinous things Frank cries about (a vocal group, but a minority), as are the same in our country.

Also, I find it pretty interesting to let Neo-Conservatives know that they are on the same political spectrum as Islamic terrorists (Far right wing).

P.S. I see I found a new website to paruse, but I have to admit, I like HL2, but I hate CS:Source...so I stick with CS

Great the "it's only a small group of idiots!"-argument. First off, it's not a 'small' minority by any means, in neither the Christian nor the Muslim camp. Second, even if it's a minority, it's still a disturbingly large group of morons. If 40% of atheists turn out to be pedophiles, you can bet I'll be first to say "there's something seriously wrong with that group". This is exactly what people like Sam Harris mean with moderates shielding the extremists from criticism. You can't criticize Islam because there's a lot of non-retarded Muslims as well. I'm not putting every Muslim into the same category, I'm criticizing the category they are in! And that happens to be a pretty barbaric and unsophisticated one.

Guess what? Moderate Muslims are not a nice example of the good side of Islam, there a nice example of the moderating effect of secularism. Someone following Islam to the letter might nog be a head slicing barbarian, but it's almost certain that it's someone who's unfriendly to women, gays, infidels and the likes (or at least gives them a different value). Someone is perfectly in their right to criticize Islam as a whole and the culture that comes from it.

I'll analyze what Miller says:

For some reason, nobody seems to be talking about who we?re up against, and the sixth century barbarism that they actually represent.

True. Conservative Islam hasn't advanced a bit since that time.

These people saw people?s heads off.

True.

They enslave women, they genitally mutilate their daughters, they do not behave by any cultural norms that are sensible to us.

True, true, true.

I?m speaking into a microphone that never could have been a product of their culture, and I?m living in a city where three thousand of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could have built.

True, the Arab world that was once the scientific capital of the world is now scientifically dead, purely because of religion.

Now, I'm sure I'll get the whole "but that's only a small (and the ever classic "but vocal") minority!". Sure, and that means it's perfectly alright to criticize whatever they get their ideas from, which is Islam. Even if atheists are not all pedophiles (just for example 40%), I'd say it would be justified to classify the group as a whole as bad. There's a disproportionately large group of creeps.

And the fact that religious extremism in America doesn't show itself as violence doesn't mean it's less extreme. Someone in a sophisticated country is less likely to resort to unsophisticated weaponry or violence in general. But someone who would like to see creationism taught in schools instead of evolution (which is apparently 43% of Americans) is no less extreme in the head than someone willing to cut off the heads of infidels. Just less violent about it.

Just like the extremely large group of people who believe the world was created instantly less than 10.000 years ago. Or the majority of Americans that would limit someone's freedom to marry someone of the same sex just because their god says so, or the 62% that wouldn't vote for a candidate that admits not believing in God. All extreme nutjobs and none are small minorities.

As for Islam, large minorties think it's perfectly alright to kill people in defense of the Islam, as shown in this 2002 report.

In this table the 'rarely justified' answers have been added to the 'justified' table because someone who thinks suicide bombing innocents is EVER justified is as bad as someone who thinks it's often justified:

Is it ever justified?
Country Yes No
Lebanon 82 12
Ivory Coast 73 27
Nigeria 66 26
Jordan 65 26
Bangladesh 58 23
Mali 54 35
Senegal 47 50
Ghana 44 43
Indonesia 43 54
Uganda 40 52
Pakistan 38 38
Turkey 20 64

That's the moderate Muslim countries. In 2002, before Iraq and Libanon. And it shows 1 in 5 Muslims in Turkey - which is the most secular Islamic country (contradiction!) and wishes to join the EU - thinks it's ever justified to blow up innocent people to defend their imaginary skygod. And that's a small minority of idiots, you say?

 

[Sulkdodds]

True, the Arab world that was once the scientific capital of the world is now scientifically dead, purely because of religion.

Though I don't know too much about the period, I kinda doubt that. I'm sure there were other reasons too.

Now, I'm sure I'll get the whole "but that's only a small (and the ever classic "but vocal") minority!". Sure, and that means it's perfectly alright to criticize whatever they get their ideas from, which is Islam. Even if atheists are not all pedophiles (just for example 40%), I'd say it would be justified to classify the group as a whole as bad. There's a disproportionately large group of creeps.

I disagree. With atheism in that example, there's no evidence beyond the mere statistic that the paedophilia is actually related to the evidence. Barbarism in modern Islam, meanwhile, is directly related to the religion itself.

The reason you should criticise Islam is not because a high proportion of Muslims are crazy, but surely more because of the crazyness inherent within the religion itself.

 

[PvtRyan]

I agree, which you can't do because moderate Muslims will say "you can't criticize Islam because only a small minority interprets it the wrong way".

 

[Sulkdodds]

Yeah, true, and you're right that it's a spurious argument. I just felt you focused unduly on the statistics, even extrapolating them in a slightly bizarre way.

 

[Absinthe]

Here's a real shocker, you may want to sit down:
People in other countries have different cultures, different ideas of what is "right" and what is "wrong". Who are you to say you're right and they are wrong? I guarantee there are just as many wingnuts like yourself in other countries, who say the exact same thing about us.

Many other cultures are also inherently far less moral than those of the civilized West.

Let's just grant for for the moment that ethics and morality are concerned with suffering and happiness. The Muslim world is ages behind the USA or any other civilized Western nation in that regard.

There is an objective standard for morality. The hijackers of 9/11, the people behind it, and those who supported it do not meet that standard. Saying that everything is subjective is just pointless and utterly stupid upon any remote inspection. Islamic states support execution for infidelity and sometimes victims of rape. That is totally irrational and warped, so don't pretend otherwise.

 

[Gunner]

Maybe you should explain your statements. That way, they would be of actual use to other people.

Who are you to judge one of the world's most ancient civilizations? "pretty shitty"? Go read some books, educate yourself.

historical persian culture - a culture which, though I'm not history buff, I'm fairly certain was pretty shitty.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Oh. Well, now you've motivated me to actually go and find out about it. You should have said that in the first place!

"Pretty shitty" was supposed to be a flippant admission of my own very vague knowledge, rather than genuinely bastardish and ignorant - sorry.

I'm not sure the supercilious contempt was really necessary in your original post, but whatever.

EDIT: I would have thought your ire would be more directed at PvtRyan who originally made the assertion , but whatever.

 

[Gunner]

Ok I'm sorry I jumped at you Sulk, my apologies :-p

 

[Absinthe]

Ancient Persian culture is shitty by today's standards.

This doesn't require a lot of thought.

 

[Stingey]

Ancient Persian culture compared to the rest of the world at that point makes our culture look like an anthill >_>

 

[Xiphos]

ever heardof athens? Pericles?