dynamic shadows eh?!

[Apos]

http://halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1298&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

EVIL got a recent response from Gabe saying so, though different from "how Doom3" does it.

What could this be? The really confusing thing is that the vids seem to show conflicting evidence. In some spots, it's clear that shadows are NOT falling on models in distinct lines: check out the momma antlion in the prison scene: when it walks into a shadow, the whole model becomes darker instead of the line of shadow passing over it.

But then check out the manipulator in the action scene in the tenaments with the traps. Towards the very beginning, you can see a line of shadow slide over the weapon model, instead of the entire model brightening globablly. Even more confusing, later in that same section you see some global brightening in and out of shadows, or even jerky brightness switches!

So, what is going on here? HL2 obviously has a way better light model than HL1 did. It's not what D3 does in some way, but it is dynamic in some way.

There is, of course, the possibility that we don't know what Gabe means when he says "dynamic." I mean, by some people's accounts, "dynamic shaodws" could just mean the shadows that were in HL1, which moved "dynamically" as models moved.

Evil talks about the dutch site with the light (where's the link to that BTW?) and that's definately more than just any old stencil buffer shadows. But is this still pre-defined? Or can a flashlight cast around shadows all over a room wherever you point it?

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

Tbh, i think they were planning for dynamic shadows like doom3s bt simply ran out of time and left it how it is now, brilliant but not quite the best!. Just my opinion/speculation.

 

[Axyon]

Well, Evil made it quite clear in the question; asking if the shadows were dynamic like Doom 3's.

Perhaps Gabe mistook some of it, or missed the part where it said Doom 3 (not very plausable, I know). But if the game does have dynamic lighting, you can add that straight to my list of "Things in HL2 that make me incredibly excited".

 

[Apos]

No, he specifically says that it is different from what D3 does.

I stick to my original position that what D3 does is WAY too intensive in terms of resource use for a game like HL2. When lighting is taking up half the game's resources, you have much less room left for other things, things HL2 is packed with.

I still can't figure out what's going on with those shadows though. Whatever it is looks great, but it also seems pretty inconsistent. Maybe this is one of the things that isn't fully merged yet, but that was "good enough" for the vids?

 

[Mr.Reak]

Maybe Apos, let's wait for new screenshots, maybe they improved their shadows by then? Also, I think Gabe talks that shadows will movie according to light (like in Neverwinter Nights), but won’t be real time like in Doom 3.

 

[simmo]

Remember d00d's its an old build, they could have implented it since then , who knows

 

[Apos]

Also, I think Gabe talks that shadows will movie according to light (like in Neverwinter Nights), but won’t be real time like in Doom 3.

I don't know what you mean here. If shadows are moving in real time in response to movements in light sources, that IS like real time D3 lighting.

 

[Mr.Reak]

Eh..yeah.. but. Well I mean, oh I don't know how to explain. There is some reason why Doom 3 shadows take up so much power. Maybe because shadows for objects not pre-rendered, but created in real time? I don't know, guessing.

 

[derby]

I think the answer here is that the shadows are created real time, using projection (onto world geometry). This would enable a swinging lightbulb.

They are not like D3's shadows as D3 allows objects/models to cast shadows over themselves and other objects, this is much harder on the er, harware.

http://www.halflife2.net/image_files/Halflife15.jpg

However, If you look at this screenshots it seems that shadows from world objects are softer and a different colour, suggesting that a lightmap, a la HL1 was used. Hopefully this has been changed for the final release.

 

[$niper]

I'm fairly certain shadows are simulated by taking in account for light sources in the map, that's all. But lighting isn't actually raytraced or the system requirements would be the same as Doom3's.

 

[Apos]

I'm pretty sure that HL2 allows models to self shadow. Check out the Gman's face, or Alyx's neck.

 

[pgod]

On the picture the shadows of the buildings are just looking different because the object casting the shadow is farer away. Their system works like in the real world, the shadow of an object far away from the ground is much more blurry than the one which is close to the ground.

Doom3 actually uses stenciled shadows, they may cast on every object but the borders are very sharp so they don't look as realistic like the approach of valve does.

 

[Apos]

Some real life shadows have sharp borders, some don't: it depends on the levle of ambient light and reflection, as well as whether the air is dusty or not.

The one thing I hope they fix that was in the vids is the way that overlapping shadows darken each other. When one model's shadow falls upon another, they shouldn't additive blend to make a dark spot, especially if both shadows are cast by the same light source. That happens a bit in the vids: like when the shadow of the blade overlaps the shadow of the motor, or even the zombie in that section overlapping itself.

Also, from watching that vid again: where does that flaming tire come from? It just appears out of nowhere!

 

[pgod]

But thats a little to much of realism ;D

BUT THE TIRE LOOKS SO COOL !

 

[pgod]

watched the movie again.. the tire comes from the car, just look at it there are tires on both sides.

Perhaps I can see it better because I have a high-res version from a German magazine (Gamestar).

 

[Apos]

Yeah, it's sweet. I'm sure they just need to adjust it so it appears at the right time, coming right off the car.

 

[Sat]

I don't know if it is the case for the tires but as Gabe said there is(was ?) a small problem with the demo playback which made things not good timed when playing a demo.

 

[pgod]

If you image that the whole thing that was shown on E3 is from september 2002, then i think there has changed a lot ;D

 

[Apos]

No, it comes far too late for it to come from the car: the car is already halfway across the alley before it appears. Nothing unclear about it.

 

[pgod]

it perhaps was beemed in from Xen ?

damn can't this ****ed up (sorry ;D) download of CS 1.6 be ready now?! :flame:

 

[Apos]

If you image that the whole thing that was shown on E3 is from september 2002, then i think there has changed a lot ;D

Why does this myth keep floating around?

Sept is when they stopped adding new features to Source: i.e. they put the version they will use in HL2 into beta mode: no more major features, just tweaks and fixes. But the e3 builds are very recent. That's why the crowbar looks so clunky: they put it in right before e3, before they had finalized it. Of course they have lots more work to do, and Gabe has said in intervwiews that it's hard showing vids, because they just see the things they know they need to fix. I guess it's true that everyone is their own worst critic.

 

[pgod]

k sorry .. learned
I didn't actually know it for sure, i thought i read it in some mail. And yes i know that they finished the engine in september 2002.

 

[Aethaecyn]

You know he did say the engine was dyamic in order to keep up with framerates, the part's with the antlion's had a lot of crap going on so it may have simply disabled dynamic lighting in that instance simply to lower the load on the computer, also he may have just done it so we could more easily see details of the antlions without being blinding or annoyed by half lit up creatures.. same way he made the water transparant so you could see the zombie hittin' him off the pier.

 

[Apos]

I dunno: it's still not clear what gabe meant. Obviously they have model self-shadowing and static shadows casting over at least the gun models. But it's not clear if he really meant that the engine recalcs the lighting in real time or anything like that. It looks like they still run some sort of QRAD.

Can EVIL clarifiy about what Dutch magazine he was reffering to? It actually sounds like what he was describing was a HAVOC demo on the havoc site, and NOT a part of HL2. Just because the havoc guys use real-time lighting in one shockwave demo doesn't mean that HL2 is going to do it.

I think specularity and bumpmapping will really make up quite a bit for any lack in this area, however. The way that the light shines off of faces and so forth is simply stunning.

 

[derby]

i'm not calling you wrong, (you seem to be right all the time but I can't remeber seeing any objects self shadow or cast shadows over other objects.

Can anyone provide screenshots of the Mother Antlion, or gravity guns where this reportedly happens. I'm not in possesion of the E3 vid right now.

 

[Apos]

Hmm: I'm trying to get screencaps of the vids, but it doesn't work: printscreen and escreen wont actually capture what's in the movie window.

If you do get a hold of the e3 vids, check out the action sequence right after the manipulator has been used to throw the first box: watch as he walks under a shadow- going frame by frame shows exacly what is happening. And check out Alyx or the Gman's face very carefully when they move around in light.

 

[Xtasy0]

Originally posted by Apos
I dunno: it's still not clear what gabe meant. Obviously they have model self-shadowing and static shadows casting over at least the gun models. But it's not clear if he really meant that the engine recalcs the lighting in real time or anything like that. It looks like they still run some sort of QRAD.

i think gabe was quite clear, he was asked whether they had dynamic shadows such as doom3 and he said yes but they use a different method of doing them.

and given the example of a light on a rope swining in a dark room casting shadows in realtime as the light moved, and gabe didnt say anything like "thats not quite how it works" etc...so i think its pretty clear.

now, they probably won't use dynamic shadows for everything, like for world geometry that doesnt move (that big column/statue in the center of city 17 for example) of course thats assuming there is a fixed light source, i'm not sure if the sunlight will move and cast different shadows.

 

[Apos]

Gabe is never very clear. He very often simply doesn't respond to whole sections of questions, as is his peroggative. I'm just pointing out that we didn't learn as much from that exchange as it seems.

"Dynamic shadows" is not a very descriptive term, because it could mean anything from stencil shadows to full Doom3 lighting.

 

[worldspawn]

Originally posted by Apos
Gabe is never very clear. He very often simply doesn't respond to whole sections of questions, as is his peroggative. I'm just pointing out that we didn't learn as much from that exchange as it seems.

"Dynamic shadows" is not a very descriptive term, because it could mean anything from stencil shadows to full Doom3 lighting.

i think it's great that if there is a question asked that he can not give a full answer to, he will try to give an answer that doesn't give away too much, but can still give us new information at times. most teams wouldn't EVER answer 1% of the questions asked by the community.. but also, no other game deserves so much speculation.

 

[Idolon]

Originally posted by Xtasy0

now, they probably won't use dynamic shadows for everything, like for world geometry that doesnt move (that big column/statue in the center of city 17 for example) of course thats assuming there is a fixed light source, i'm not sure if the sunlight will move and cast different shadows.

Yes that sound reasonable and if you think about it, this picture kind of suggests that doesn't it?

This picture shows that the world geometry doesn't use the same type of shadows as the movable things like characters and vehicles. The fact that they don't have the same source of light is kind of weird though...

or maybe its just a coincidence.

 

[worldspawn]

Originally posted by Idolon
Yes that sound reasonable and if you think about it, this picture kind of suggests that doesn't it?

This picture shows that the world geometry doesn't use the same type of shadows as the movable things like characters and vehicles. The fact that they don't have the same source of light is kind of weird though...

or maybe its just a coincidence.

yes this picture shows that they use different shadow techniques for world geometry than for models.. hopefully and most likeley they will be synchronized and indistinguishable by release day.

 

[SD1]

i havet seen this picture before. Where is it from?

SD

 

[MoJo|Night]

That picture does look as though world geometry has light source to the top left of the picture and the people and then vehicel in the scene have a light source over to the right of the picture.

Very odd. Where's Neil armstrong when you need him?

 

[Direwolf]

Thats also a really, really old picture though.
And there's not garuntee it wasn't manipulated in some manner and a mistake was made.

 

[Mr.Reak]

It already been said that this picture is from old built, so yeah..

 

[Apos]

Sigh.
This picture has been acknowledged as having a bug, since fixed, with different light sources.

However, there is nothing new or special about models having their own shadows in a QRAD environment! Even HL1 had this capability, though it wasn't enabled by default. It isn't the same thing as D3 shadows: it's just the use of a stencil buffer.

 

[Xtasy0]

ok check this out.

"Before you lies the interior of an unfurnished apartment. Its hardwood floor is uncluttered except for two desolate chairs on the lefthand side of the room. To the right is a smaller enclave that is inexplicably ablaze; the glow of the flames creates a flickering chorus of dancing shadows on the dank wall.
Directly ahead of you is a row of windows. Upon closer inspection, a minute detail catches your eye --- particles of dust float gently through the air, captured in the beams of sunlight bursting through glass panes. Particles of DUST.

For a brief moment, I'm not looking at a game engine. It's a PLACE, as wholly authentic as any I've seen in the real world."

that's the opening bit of the PC Gamer article, i think i've bolded the obvious part which has to do with this thread, any comments?

 

[Direwolf]

Good memory. I forgot about that.

 

[Apos]

We haven't seen anything like that in screenshots or movies: pretty amazing sounding though. The problem, we do see fire in the tech demo, and there aren't any dancing shadows there.

Again: the evidence is REALLY inconsistent. In the exact same scene we see old style "entire-model-pops-into-brightness" AND edges of shadows moving over models realistically. The friendlies in the barney video, for instance, just pop bright when the walk into light patches. But shadows slide over the manipulator in the tenaments/traps section. Confusing as all heck.

 

[$niper]

I really don't read much into game previews. Too much imagination and not enough facts are put in by the journalists.