Educational Apartheid in the UK

[el Chi]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4323979.stm

Woah! Now, I've voiced my opinion on multi-culturalism a fair few times, but just to reiterate:
IT IS A GOOD THING AND IF YOU DISAGREE THEN YOU ARE WRONG.
If you could please point out to me a disagreement to multi-culturalism that does not result in racist undertones, I'd like to hear it.

But here we go! This guy from the Comission for Racial Equality has said that Afro-Carribean lads should be taught separately. This guy is black too, so that stumps your typical "You're a racist" response. So let's try a "You're a prick" response, shall we?

Now, the only way to break down racial barriers is through experience and one is more impressionable as a child. Thus, being in school with people from different races from you is a Good Thing. So, if you cut off Afro-Carribean boys from the rest of the education system, then fewer people interact with black boys and black boys interact with fewer people of other races.
I'm not sure I quite see that that helps societ as a whole.

But what about the grades? Would they really get better grades if they were segregated (now there's a word for the 21st centuray, eh!?) Is it a racial matter rather than a motivational thing. Perhaps one can't deny the statistics, but for f*ck's sake - is segregation really the way to go?

 

[pomegranate]

While I don't for a second believe that multi-culturalism is bad thing, I don't know particularly why it's a good thing either.

 

[el Chi]

An absence of multi-culturalism leads to a lack of understanding and thus a prevalence of racism.

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

But keeping ones culture alive is also an important thing.

Multicutralism made my country great but we also keep individual cultures alive. A mile down from me is a Chex and Slovak village.... Here Saint Patty's day is the biggest celebration of the year including X-Mas. German frosting is the bomb.. I could go on and on and on.

 

[Edcrab]

Well, just look at that Islamic girl whose brother (who has some links to a slightly beardy Muslim organisation) campaigned so long to allow her to wear full Muslim dress. That wasn't a question of embracing the religious beliefs of other cultures, it was an idiot doing their best to enforce existing racial barriers.

You need people to keep their identities, but sometimes it's blatantly obvious that these important "issues" are brought to the fore merely to highlight the policies of political parties- saying that you're "a better Muslim" because you wear a longer robe is, frankly, offensive. And I'm an Protestant Agnostic for crying out loud.

 

[pomegranate]

An absence of multi-culturalism leads to a lack of understanding and thus a prevalence of racism.

I don't think that's necessarily a universal truth. I think it's more to do with the existing culture in a place, multicultural society or not.

 

[el Chi]

But keeping ones culture alive is also an important thing.

Multicutralism made my country great but we also keep individual cultures alive. A mile down from me is a Chex and Slovak village.... Here Saint Patty's day is the biggest celebration of the year including X-Mas. German frosting is the bomb.. I could go on and on and on.

It is more than possible to keep one's own culture in a multi-cultural society. The idea of multi-culturalism is not that you melt everyone's culture into one globulous ball of different cultures. Rather that we have the different cultures standing side by side in a glorious technicolour tapestry of internationalism. Thus, we understand and appreciate people's different backgrounds. I see nothing wrong with that.
Apologies if that sounds mildly hyperbolic/purple prose.

I don't think that's necessarily a universal truth. I think it's more to do with the existing culture in a place, multicultural society or not.

Fair play. However for the most part, inexperience breeds prejudice.

Well, just look at that Islamic girl whose brother (who has some links to a slightly beardy Muslim organisation) campaigned so long to allow her to wear full Muslim dress. That wasn't a question of embracing the religious beliefs of other cultures, it was an idiot doing their best to enforce existing racial barriers.

You need people to keep their identities, but sometimes it's blatantly obvious that these important "issues" are brought to the fore merely to highlight the policies of political parties- saying that you're "a better Muslim" because you wear a longer robe is, frankly, offensive. And I'm an Protestant Agnostic for crying out loud.

Yeah, that case was interesting, not least for the facts that:
1. She didn't seem to turn up to court in what she intended to wear to school (or maybe she did, and I've made a horrible mistake).
2. The school only lost on a technicality.
3. She is now suing the school and, as such, is a bitch.

 

[pomegranate]

It is more than possible to keep one's own culture in a multi-cultural society. The idea of multi-culturalism is not that you melt everyone's culture into one globulous ball of different cultures. Rather that we have the different cultures standing side by side in a glorious technicolour tapestry of internationalism. Thus, we understand and appreciate people's different backgrounds. I see nothing wrong with that.

Well I'd like to think you're right, that people can keep their own distinct culture AND live side-by-side AND interact, but how? Particularly thinking of the UK.

 

[gh0st]

Multiculturalism is totally wrong. It twists society in such a way that EVERYTHING is structured around OTHER peoples culture. It imposes this upon you. Out of this cess pool of political correctness and naivete comes things like affirmative action. Dont even get me started on that. Worse, it applies this vague cultural stereotype on everything. Sure he's black, so he must be this this and this. Worse, it does this by creating a de facto racism within a country. Instead of using words like "race" they substitute it for things like "culture". So it doesnt really "mix" everything up in one perfect multicultural pot it seperates everybody according to culture, and to add insult to injury it makes everybody think its ok because it looks like we've done something about it. Multiculturalism doesnt work, and eventually will degrade and degenerate the value of culture in countries.

 

[pomegranate]

Multiculturalism is totally wrong. It twists society in such a way that EVERYTHING is structured around OTHER peoples culture. It imposes this upon you. Out of this cess pool of political correctness and naivete comes things like affirmative action. Dont even get me started on that. Worse, it applies this vague cultural stereotype on everything. Sure he's black, so he must be this this and this. Worse, it does this by creating a de facto racism within a country. Instead of using words like "race" they substitute it for things like "culture". So it doesnt really "mix" everything up in one perfect multicultural pot it seperates everybody according to culture, and to add insult to injury it makes everybody think its ok because it looks like we've done something about it. Multiculturalism doesnt work, and eventually will degrade and degenerate the value of culture in countries.

So, assuming you're not a Native American, are you advocating the emmigration from the USA of all ethnic groups who came to the Americas since the 1400s?
Not taking the mickey, I think you could be right.

 

[GhostFox]

An absence of multi-culturalism leads to a lack of understanding and thus a prevalence of racism

Multi-culturalism is more likely to lead to racism, so I fail to see your point.

 

[gh0st]

So, assuming you're not a Native American, are you advocating the emmigration from the USA of all ethnic groups who came to the Americas since the 1400s?
Not taking the mickey, I think you could be right.

No, why the hell would you even think that? I'm advocating the fact that multiculturalism sucks and fails by over compensating for assumed racism.

 

[pomegranate]

Yeah sorry that was a bit daft.

 

[Calanen]

An absence of multi-culturalism leads to a lack of understanding and thus a prevalence of racism.

No1 ever explains multi-culturalism properly or the reasons for it. When you try to pin them down on it, they go on about we need Chinese restaurants and Thai restaurants and other things equally puzzling.

My view of it is this. There is one culture. The Australian culture in Australia. You can wear a turban on your head. You can dance in the streets in national costume from wherever you are from. But do not try and tear down my culture and replace it with your symbols.

There are Australian beliefs and Australian values. Australian symbols, flags, regimental colours. Australian national days. All of these things, multi-culturalists have tried to tear down and destroy. I will not have it.

If you come to this country, respect its culture. And keep your own if you want. But don't dare try and disrespect mine.

 

[Calanen]

Sorry - as to splitting people off into different classes. I am for whatever works. And it should be voluntary though. If they want to stay in the regular classes even though you have told them it might be better if they did not fine. They have found that splitting off girls at high school from boys leads to better grades. But I don't want anyone feeling that they have to be split off and marginalised. Just an option for them to go to another class - which may work better.

 

[Pericolos0]

If you come to this country, respect its culture. And keep your own if you want. But don't dare try and disrespect mine.

well yes thats the whole point of multiculturalism :s. you respect each other's cultures, there's no more to it than that.

 

[Calanen]

well yes thats the whole point of multiculturalism :s. you respect each other's cultures, there's no more to it than that.

No thats wrong. What people try and do, is tear down our national culture and replace it with one from overseas. And thats wrong. The national identity will not be subsumed into 'All things to all people'

 

[el Chi]

Multi-culturalism is more likely to lead to racism, so I fail to see your point.

No it isn't. As I said, inexperience breeds bigotry. The more you interact with someone from a different racial/cultural background, the more you come to realise that we're not all that different, and that the ways in which we are can be truly fascinating.
I see what you're saying in that if society x was a complete monoculture, then x would not have to worry about racial discrimination, etc. However what about when people from x go to a completely different area with lots of different racees? Prejudices will seep in because they don't understand them.

The area where I live is deeply diverse and, as a result, we have few racial problems, because most of the kids grew up side-by-side kids from other backgrounds.
My road and the two or three on either side are, for the most part, a mixture of Muslims and Hassidic Jews. Now traditionally, these two groups have something of a history of disagreement. However they seem to live perfectly happily next to one another. I don't think they drop by each other's houses for a cuppa and a natter (although the Hassidic community is often rather insular), exactly, but there are no heavy undertones of animosity and the local synagogue and mosque are pretty much side-by-side.
There was one instance when a Jewish guy got stabbed, however I don't think it was ever proven that that was a racial thing.


Just out of interest however, what do people think of the main question of the thread?

 

[Septih]

I don't think racial segregation is the way to go. Why not keep with the system at the moment. most schools have special classes for the differences in intelligence, the classes try to help them get up to scratch. if it is mainly certain ethnic groups that are in the lower classes then i don't think thats racist, thats just the way it worked out.

If we say segragate the black boys and white boys with the assumption that the majority or black boys are further behind in school then the white boys, then we'll end up with the smarter black boys out of place and the stupider white boys also out of place.

If we're talking about differences in intelligence then 'segregation' should be on intellectual basis rather then race, even if race happens to correlate to it.

 

[kirovman]

I was quite suprised to see this article.

But then I thought: Does it really matter, as long as they get the opportunity to perform their best, by whatever means?

 

[el Chi]

If we're talking about differences in intelligence then 'segregation' should be on intellectual basis rather then race, even if race happens to correlate to it.

Pretty much my sentiments exactly. I was under the impression that were separated in classes like maths, science and English by ability which I suppose works to an extent, although I'm not so sure how helpful it is for the morale of the students in the lower sets who probably aren't too keen on such subjects anyway.
Tough situation and no mistake.

 

[kirovman]

Pretty much my sentiments exactly. I was under the impression that were separated in classes like maths, science and English by ability which I suppose works to an extent, although I'm not so sure how helpful it is for the morale of the students in the lower sets who probably aren't too keen on such subjects anyway.
Tough situation and no mistake.

Yeah, in school I was in the top classes/sets, my brother was in the bottom classes/sets.

The raucous behaviour in my brother's class's made it difficult for him to concentrate and learn.
My classes were pretty much harmonious, and I was never denied the opportunity to work hard.
In the bottom classes, they bully you if you work hard.

 

[short recoil]

If they dont want to be racist at all they should treat people exactly the same.

I've seen enough of this bullshit where "they give a black person a better chance because he is black"....i would find that ****ing offensive....ive seen things at colleges and stuff where they aim to get a "certain percentage" of another race.
If they are intelligent they go in faster classes, if they are dumb they go in the slower classes........nothing should be decided on their race.

Seperating them is a stupid idea.

 

[kirovman]

I saw some guy on the BBC news before saying that groups in class band together, and that in the long term it would be better if black role models were set in great scientists and doctors rather than on the DJs and that. They also spotted intelligent black kids at age 11 to try and direct them into becoming Doctors on special schemes.

The guy basically said: The white kids have got problems, but the black kids have got bigger problems. If we fix the problems with the black kids, we will make a start on fixing everyone's problems.
In these days the role models are not good, like the DJs, make it cool to be stupid rather than clever. Doctors and scientists should be seen to be cool for them.

Oh this guy on the news was black, before you start thinking "How racist of him!"


I'm up for letting people perform to their full potential, but I don't think racial catagorising is they way.
As I said before, the judgement should be on a case by case basis.

 

[GhostFox]

The more you interact with someone from a different racial/cultural background, the more you come to realise that we're not all that different, and that the ways in which we are can be truly fascinating.

I agree. However multicultural societies do not do this. In a melting pot all the people of that nation have a common thread to bind them together, and therefore are more accepting of cultural heratige. Multicultural societies cause deep divisions because they consider themselves their heritige first and nationality second. I.E. A canadain born and raised whose parents were chinese. Instead of being a Canadian with Chinese heritige, they are more likely to consider themselves Chinese happening to live in Canada, in a multicultural society. Thus they tend to associate only with other chinese people, and have less expirance with other races/nationalities.

 

[kmack]

An absence of multi-culturalism leads to a lack of understanding and thus a prevalence of racism.

Very well put.

 

[pomegranate]

I agree. However multicultural societies do not do this. In a melting pot all the people of that nation have a common thread to bind them together, and therefore are more accepting of cultural heratige. Multicultural societies cause deep divisions because they consider themselves their heritige first and nationality second. I.E. A canadain born and raised whose parents were chinese. Instead of being a Canadian with Chinese heritige, they are more likely to consider themselves Chinese happening to live in Canada, in a multicultural society. Thus they tend to associate only with other chinese people, and have less expirance with other races/nationalities.

I dunno if I agree with you or not (it's too late at night to think clearly) but FYI I houseshare with a Chinese Canadian lady, and we get on fantastically (and I'm quite English).

 

[Calanen]

Well, just look at that Islamic girl whose brother (who has some links to a slightly beardy Muslim organisation) campaigned so long to allow her to wear full Muslim dress. That wasn't a question of embracing the religious beliefs of other cultures, it was an idiot doing their best to enforce existing racial barriers.

I have never had a problem with people wearing whatever they want for whatever reason, unless of course its clearly the badge of some sort of hate organisation (like the Nazi Party, or the hoods from the Ku Klux Klan). And also it should not be obscene. But whether 'beardy' - (your word I'm repeating) organisations want girls to wear Hajabs or full berkas, good luck to them. What does it matter? Lets fight the battles that count, not waste public time and money on who gets to wear whatever length of cloth at school.

 

[Edcrab]

What does it matter? Lets fight the battles that count, not waste public time and money on who gets to wear whatever length of cloth at school.

Agreed- and that's why I'm not too happy about that one example.

You see, not only is the girl in question considering suing the school (which happens to be predominantly Muslim anyway) the "beardy" organisation that her brother is a member of- the man represented her case- happens to be a fundamentallist group who believes in Islamic dominance (picture one of those insanely puritan Chrisitian extremist groups, except Muslim).

And as stated I really resented the remarks of some of her defenders- to the effect that she shouldn't be excluded from education because she was a better Muslim than her classmates.

I can't help but think that this lawsuit was an attention-seeking ploy first and foremost and an equality case second. Although it would more accurately be a superiority case if they genuinely believe themselves to be better people because of a slight variation in clothing...