Good Job halflife2.net

[kirovman]

But Judaism does not have a huge amount of followers compared to the other damning religions.

In fact it's tiny

So that kind of reinforces my point.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I think there must be something beyond, since otherwise it would be a total waste of energy, for all living beings on the face of the Earth.

That doesn't make any sense. If there is an infinite heaven, why should we bother with this?
An omnipotent, omniscient god could effortlessly transport good people to heaven and bad people elsewheres, thus saving us the last couple million years.
God, being omniscient, knows exactly how you will turn out. So why the song and dance?

Meanwhile, those of us in reality know that the point of life is to improve the lives of our families and of the world at large. Even if we die, that legacy does go on.
Life is only worthless if you don't care about contributing to society in any tangible way.
(Christianity's dubious contributions are typically intangible.)

Christianity is the belief that everything we do on Earth is worthless - everything except for paying Christianity.

And can I ask for the citations where Jesus says to kill your neighbour of a different religion? I don't have a Bible handy right now.

Jesus says:

'In truth I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest stroke of a letter will pass away from The Law. So anyone who breaks the least of these commandments or teaches others to do so will be called "least" in the kingdom of heaven. But whoevever practices these commandments and teaches them will be called "great" in the kingdom of heaven. I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses the experts in The Law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.'
(Matthew 5:18-20)

God says:

'The Law is permanent for all future generations. You must add nothing to what I command you, nor subtract anything from it, but keep the commandments of Yahweh your God just as I lay them down for you.'
(Numbers 15:15, Deuteronomy 4:2)

"The Law" and "The Commandments" refer to the laws of Moses and/or the ten commandments, respectively.
In this passage, Jesus is telling the people that it does not suffice to simply follow the laws of Moses.
You must follow the moses and have faith in Jesus to reach heaven.

The laws of moses feature death penalties on the following:

-Killing someone while angry at them.
-Killing someone while not angry at them (unless you stay in a City of Refuge (a safe zone built by the government).
-Killing someone with a weapon.
-Leaving a City of Refuge.
-Bestiality.
-Attempted Bestiality.^
-Homosexuality.
-Having sex with your mother, daughter or sister (actual genetic relation not required).
-Having sex with your father, son or brother (actual genetic relation not required).^
-Being married to both a mother and her daughter.
-Adultery.
---Looking at a woman with lust.
---Remarrying after a divorce.
---Marrying a divorced woman.
-Raping a married woman.
-Being raped (while married in an urban area).^
-Being accused of having premarital sex by your husband (and not being able to prove otherwise).^
-Beating your slave until he dies.
-Disobeying your parents.
-False prophecy (asking people to worship anything other than Jehovah. This does not(?) include jesus and the holy spirit).
-Living in a town where a false prophet is.
-Performing magic tricks, or any illusion.
-Ingesting blood.

^ = Female-specific crimes.
Bold text = details added by the New Testament.

Most of the Ten Commandments are punishable by death as well.

One:
-Do not believe in any other god.*
-Do not say the name of any other god.*
-Do not make sacrifices to any other god. (DEATH PENALTY)

Two:
-Do not make a carved image of anything.*

Three:
-Do not misuse Jehovah's name.*

Four:
-Do not do any work on a sunday. (DEATH PENALTY)

Five:
-Honour your father and/or mother.*
-Do not hit your father and/or mother. (DEATH PENALTY)
-Do not curse your father and/or mother. (DEATH PENALTY)

Six:
-Do not strike a man and kill him. (DEATH PENALTY)

Seven:
-Do not sleep with another man's wife. (DEATH PENALTY for both people)

Eight:
-Do not steal from another man. (DEATH PENALTY)

Nine:
-Do not give false testimony about your neighbor.*

Ten:
-Do not covet your neighbor's house.*
-Do not set your heart on your neighbor's wife.*
-Do not set your heart on any of your neighbor's posessions.*

* = Human punishment is not required. breaking these commandments brings about the wrath of god and he will automatically torture and kill the people for you.

 

[kirovman]

Christianity is the belief that everything we do on Earth is worthless - everything except for paying Christianity.

And fiddling choirboys.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Exactly. There is, to my knowledge, absolutely no rule against pedophilia in the bible.

So an old priest, knowing he'll end up in Heaven since he's christian, molests hundreds of little boys.
Even if he does get caught, jail time on Earth is only a blink of the eye compared to eternity in heaven.

Meanwhile, he also doesn't really care about the long-term psychological problems inflicted on the poor kids, because their mortal lives are pretty much worthless too.

That's my favorite part of the bible. The part where you can molest children without consequence.

 

[Tagaziel]

Thanks. Though none of those actually come from the gospels.

A good representation of how quite possibly misinterpreted Jesus' words ae is contained in Mikhail Bulhakov's Master and Margarita, when Woland describes Jeszua's visit to Pontius Pilate to Berlioz and Ivan Bezdomny.
The biggest fault of modern day christianity is that we fail to take the circumstances in which the books were written - 2000 years ago, in completely different political, historical, social etc. conditions, and all the laws written down were based on those, that were enforced xxxx years ago.
I won't defend the institution of Church - it is flawed, and will propably continue to be AND was solely responsible for such disasters as medieval Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition or crimes against humanity commited on the native american population.

May I ask for the reasons of why you are actually so fiercely trying to convert me to atheism? Because, face it, this IS conversion, trading one set of beliefs for another.

 

[kirovman]

Thanks. Though none of those actually come from the gospels.

The gospels = Matthew, Mark, Luke, John?

In those books, Jesus says that the words of the Old Testament are still equally valid for all of time, as when they were written. Regardless of the modern circumstances. As Mecha points out.

 

[Qonfused]

* = Human punishment is not required. breaking these commandments brings about the wrath of god and he will automatically torture and kill the people for you.

That made me laugh for some reason.

 

[Tagaziel]

kirovman, would you really expect Jesus to go around saying that the tradition Jews lived by for the past hundreds of years was crap and they should throw it out the window? I wouldn't.

He'd wake up one day with a dozen knifes in his chest - one for each apostle

 

[Angry Lawyer]

The reason I'm so accepting of the religious is because the average religious person, as much as their religion tells them they are wrong, is quite happy to use the good parts of the religion as a guide, while ignoring the bad parts. maybe not a "true believer", but a good person, none-the-less.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Tagaziel]

Angry Lawyer FTW.

 

[Slacker]

May I ask for the reasons of why you are actually so fiercely trying to convert me to atheism? Because, face it, this IS conversion, trading one set of beliefs for another.

We aren't. You're presenting points and we're arguing with them. Big difference.

 

[Tagaziel]

I can't argue, mainly for the fact that I've never been a 100% supporter of Christianity, especially as an organisation. I'm just a nice peson who happens to like Christian values and considers himself one.

Besides, against powers of reason, any faith diminishes.

 

[delusional]

Run Grizzly Run Before Its Too Late, Get Out Of The Politics Forum Before You Succumb To Mechas Lies!!!! Ruuunnn!!!

 

[Ome_Vince]

heh, i love how religion threads turn always turn out into soo many pages.

Its where Atheist warriors meet deacon warriors, and the rest kinda spam in between lol.

 

[PvtRyan]

The reason I'm so accepting of the religious is because the average religious person, as much as their religion tells them they are wrong, is quite happy to use the good parts of the religion as a guide, while ignoring the bad parts. maybe not a "true believer", but a good person, none-the-less.

-Angry Lawyer

But that doesn't take religion. They could be exactly the same good person without it. It essentially serves no purpose when you ignore the bad parts and embrace the good parts which can be found outside religion.

Religion doesn't have a monopoly on morality. In fact, religion is the result of morality, not the cause, as the attempt to define morality in absolute unshakable values and thus gain control over it.

May I ask for the reasons of why you are actually so fiercely trying to convert me to atheism? Because, face it, this IS conversion, trading one set of beliefs for another.

It's not really a conversion, "we're" just presenting you our (the rational) point of view. Conversions are made with the promise of improvement, like a blissful eternal life with God, "we" just provide reasoning, no matter how ugly it is. What you do with that reasoning, is up to you. I honestly don't care as long as you don't let faith cloud your reasonable mind.

 

[Tagaziel]

Thanks Ryan, the last part of the post was what I needed to hear.

It's just that Mechagodzilla's post seems openly antagonistic, and feels like a conversion offer - pointing out all negatives, while providing no positives is a common figure of speech.

But still, I love you guys. Very, very much.

 

[delusional]

the last religion thread i was arguing against mecha but i dont think im a deocon warrior. i just oppose anything and everything.

 

[bbson john]

Sometimes, Mecha is right. It is just that he is being too arbitrary so people may not like you. You cannot ensure that you are senseless when you are dead, since you have never died before. You have never experienced that and no one tells you there is nothing after dying. But I agree with your overall argument.

Christian has committed the worst moral problem. The bible says that it is useless to be a good people in real life. That is you are not going into heaven if you help a lot people, being a philanthropist. You can only step into heaven but doing the only thing in your life: mission. Missionize people and you can go to heaven, without judging whether you are a good or bad person. That hurt the moral value of the society a lot. I just don't like it. :/

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Thanks. Though none of those actually come from the gospels.

It's called "The Gospel of Matthew".

A good representation of how quite possibly misinterpreted Jesus' words ae is contained in Mikhail Bulhakov's Master and Margarita, when Woland describes Jeszua's visit to Pontius Pilate to Berlioz and Ivan Bezdomny.

If the bible isn't an accurate account of the laws, and christians need the laws to go to heaven, then everyone's pretty much screwed, aren't they?
If religion is obsolete, then you needn't bother following it.
If you do believe it, then your only hope is to do everything the bible says.

Religion is invalid unless the bible is read as literally as possible. Remember, it's a holy text of divine providence.

The biggest fault of modern day christianity is that we fail to take the circumstances in which the books were written - 2000 years ago, in completely different political, historical, social etc. conditions, and all the laws written down were based on those, that were enforced xxxx years ago.

God and Jesus say that's a lie.

"The Law is permanent for all future generations."

"Until heaven and earth pass away, not even the smallest stroke of a letter will pass away from The Law."

I won't defend the institution of Church - it is flawed, and will propably continue to be AND was solely responsible for such disasters as medieval Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition or crimes against humanity commited on the native american population.

According to God and Jesus, those should be considered Christianity's Greatest Hits.

Remember: people who preach other religions and use magic are to be killed on sight.

May I ask for the reasons of why you are actually so fiercely trying to convert me to atheism? Because, face it, this IS conversion, trading one set of beliefs for another.

I'm not trying to convert you to atheism.

I'm trying to convert you to christianity.

If you want to be a christian, you have to do what Jesus says. That's the definition of "christian".
Jesus is the son of almighty god. You must do as he commands, unerringly. I'm trying to save your soul here, because - unless you kill half the population of Earth - you will go to hell.

I didn't invent this. This is what the bible says to do.
If you are a christian, you must follow the bible. :angel:

It's just that Mechagodzilla's post seems openly antagonistic, [...] pointing out all negatives, while providing no positives is a common figure of speech.

This isn't antagonistic, and this isn't negative.
This is the glory of god, and god is love.

Now, do as jesus said and slaughter religious minorities.
The positive part is that, if you do this, god will not let flesh be torn from your crying skeleton again and again in the eternally scarring fires of hell.

What could be more positive than that?

You've read the bible, right?
Look, I'm trying to be positive here, really I am.
But you've said: you want to be a christian, you don't want to go to hell, and you don't want to waste your time on Earth chasing false idols.
So if you're going to be christian, you have to take it EXTREMELY SERIOUSLY.
You don't choose your god the way you choose shoes at Wal-Mart.
You can't just half-ass your way to heaven. You have to follow the rules of the game.

 

[CptStern]

ok from what I remember of your reasoning non-religious people (persons who have no religious affiliation whatsoever) are exempt from this genocide due to that fact that the bible specifically instructs christians to kill all those who subscribe to all other religions but makes no mention of the non religious

if true: whew! ..commence holy war ...now!

 

[bbson john]

ok from what I remember of your reasoning non-religious people (persons who have no religious affiliation whatsoever) are exempt from this genocide due to that fact that the bible specifically instructs christians to kill all those who subscribe to all other religions but makes no mention of the non religious

if true: whew! ..commence holy war ...now!

W. Bush has started it. And he admitted that it is crusade.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

ok from what I remember of your reasoning non-religious people (persons who have no religious affiliation whatsoever) are exempt from this genocide due to that fact that the bible specifically instructs christians to kill all those who subscribe to all other religions but makes no mention of the non religious

Yep, that's the fact. Atheists are exempt from jesus's holy christian genocide.
We also aren't allowed to participate.

All we can do is teach people like Grizz here the truth: that he can't be a christian unless he kills everyone.

 

[delusional]

actually in deuteronomy 10:18 it says to love aliens and give them food and clothing. and the alien is most certainly not a follower of god. and in deuteronomy 13:12-18 it says to kill people who reject god from within themselves, and only if they follow all the laws. and in romans 3:9-31 we learn that no one is rightious and have fallen short of the glory of god. so no one is in due right to purge the world of evil since everyone is inheritably evil.

 

[CptStern]

Yep, that's the fact. Atheists are exempt from jesus's holy christian genocide.
We also aren't allowed to participate.

rats, not even a teeny bit? ... /me puts away chainsaw

 

[Mechagodzilla]

actually in deuteronomy 10:18 it says to love aliens and give them food and clothing. and the alien is most certainly not a follower of god. and in deuteronomy 13:12-18 it says to kill people who reject god from within themselves, and only if they follow all the laws. and in romans 3:9-31 we learn that no one is rightious and have fallen short of the glory of god. so no one is in due right to purge the world of evil since everyone is inheritably evil.

1) "Aliens" means "people from other countries".
It makes absolutely no reference to religion, so don't try to invent one.

2) You completely ignored the second half of Deut. 13:13 (in bold):

13:12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
13:13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
13:17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
13:18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

The death sentence only happens to those who promote other gods.

3) The Epistle to the Romans was written by Paul of Tarsus, who I have repeatedly proven is a false prophet who wrote a bunch of contradictions to jesus' teachings long after jesus died. Including, for example, the passage above.
Paul invented most of the peaceful crap in the new testament because he wasn't cool with Jesus's teachings.
Jesus said to kill lots of people. Paul didn't want to. So paul wrote various letters to his flock, filled with lies.

We are talking about jesus here. Paul is not jesus.

 

[delusional]

yet the alien is most definitely not a follower of god since the only people that do are the jews. in matthew 18:15-17 jesus says if you cant teach others their sins then you treat them as pagans and tax collectors not to kill them. and since alien is the closest thing to pagan in the laws of moses it is the best icould come up with. and you ommited the verse 12 where it says cities that god gave to the jews not the whole world. you only kill people from within israel. and you have used romans in the past

 

[Tagaziel]

Jesus Christ (pun intended), Mecha, you *really* should run for president in Europe. You'd kill off anyone in debates.

Thank God we progressed past literal interpretation, and new schools of thought within the Church emerged, otherwise, we'd be worse than Osama Bin Laden (and were in the past).

Besides, as I said earlier, can you possibly imagine Jesus going around saying the Jews' tradition is obsolete and they don't have to care about it? His views were revolutionary for the time - would they be any more groundbreaking, he'd get knifed.

 

[kirovman]

Besides, as I said earlier, can you possibly imagine Jesus going around saying the Jews' tradition is obsolete and they don't have to care about it? His views were revolutionary for the time - would they be any more groundbreaking, he'd get knifed.

Well, they did crucify him (using the Romans as a proxy).

But you're suggesting that he couldn't be any more radical, or he'd be knifed?

So he'd be pandering to the masses, rather than following the word of God? Not a good messiah. It implies that Christianity was shaped by the people he was preaching to, rather than shaped by God.

 

[Tagaziel]

It was, zeppelin man, it was. All the words, all the actions are always perverted when transferred to paper and affected by the circumstances. The Bible is no exception, more, it IS one of the most biased books in existence.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

yet the alien is most definitely not a follower of god since the only people that do are the jews.

Back then.
But you forget that the laws are permanent for all future generations.
How many places are inhabited by jews and christians today?
And how much of Earth was given to us by god so that they might be fruitful and multiply?

All of it.

in matthew 18:15-17 jesus says if you cant teach others their sins then you treat them as pagans and tax collectors not to kill them.

First off, you missed Matt. 18:4-7, where Jesus gives some pretty explicit instructions to people of other faiths:

18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Normally, people would call that a metaphor, but in light of the other things he's said I'm not so sure.

Not to mention 18:8-9, where Jesus commands you to mutilate yourself if you sin by cutting off the sinful body part in question.
Since sin is caused by the brain, he is apparently advocating suicide for sinners.

Now, on to your issue, which is 18:15-17

18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Matt. 18:15-17 is the procedure for determining who can be killed.
Remember, the bible is a legal document, and those laws which god reserves for earthly punishment are judged by human judges and human police.
So, in order to kill someone, you need witnesses to their crime and the consent of the church.
Check the passage before that:

18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
God doesn't want people to die, so you must try to convert them before you kill them.

Remember, Jesus says they're better off dead anyways.

If all killing were outlawed, Jesus would be contradicting God, and that would mark him as a false prophet.

It was, zeppelin man, it was. All the words, all the actions are always perverted when transferred to paper and affected by the circumstances. The Bible is no exception, more, it IS one of the most biased books in existence.

So if the bible is as "based on a true story" as the texas chainsaw massacre, why do you follow it and believe in it?

You CAN'T go to heaven unless you follow the laws of god.
If you don't know what those laws are, you are doomed.
The bible is not a metaphor. It is a law-book.
Jesus makes a strong distinction between the Gospels and the Parables.
Metaphors cloud the minds of the faithless, he says.

Mark 4:33-34
Using many similar parables, he [jesus] spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He would only speak to them using parables.
Mark 4:10
When he was alone, those around him and the Twelve [apostles] asked him about the parables.
Luke 8:10
He said, 'The secret of the kingdom of God is granted to you.'
Mark 4:11-12
'But to those on the outside, everything comes in parables so that they may look and look but never perceive, listen and listen but never understand.'
Mark 4:12
'Otherwise they might change their ways and be forgiven.'

Your only hope is to treat the bible as literally as possible.
That means to kill as many people as you can.

Otherwise, hell is inevitable.

 

[Tagaziel]

You sure you're an atheist, not a rabid American protestant?

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I'm a Christian Atheist.

In other words, I have proven that the bible is literal - but I don't believe in God, Heaven, Hell, or any of that supernatural bullshit.

All I can do, as a Christian Atheist, is tell you the truth about the bible.
According to Jesus' teachings, the faithful are required to judge, maim and kill.

So are you faithful or not?

 

[Ome_Vince]

Just out of curiousity, where does it say that?
The Bible has many revisions, and variations, so i'm wondering which most likely Fuedal version you guys (and uber-religious fanatics for that matter) are refering to

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Pretty much every bible contains all these passages. Pick one at random, and these will be in there.

These are key parts of the biblical canon.

As described a few pages back, jesus demands that you exactly follow the laws of moses, which involve killing a whole lot of people.

The part that I referenced above is when Jesus says "judge not lest ye be judged", which in context means that the law applies to everyone equally, thus judges/executioners must be those who follow the laws and have faith.

That's why atheists aren't allowed to kill, and part of why christians are required to.
People who don't accept and participate in the laws of christ go to hell, according to jesus's teachings in the Gospel of Matthew.
That's why you must follow the laws and kill people.
If you don't, you go to hell.

Matthew 10:34-35
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword.
I have come to set son against father, daughter against mother and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Luke 12:49-52
"I have come to bring fire to the earth. And how I wish it were blazing already!
Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but hostility!
From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three."

Luke 14:26
"If anyone does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

 

[kirovman]

Also, where Jesus says "Do unto others as you would expect them to do to yourself"

That includes burn them for being heathens, because you'd expect them to burn you if you were a heathen.

And you'd expect them to kill you for breaking the 10 commandments.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Exactly. "Judge not lest ye be judged."
You can only call yourself a christian if you submit yourself to the laws and accept that, if you break them, you deserve to be killed.

Also, Jesus says that "getting angry" and "insulting people" are punishable by eternity in hell.

He equates getting angry with commiting murder, so there is a good chance that you can be sentenced to death for experiencing that emotion.

 

[delusional]

god even gives instruction on how life is outside israel. deuteronomy 4:26-31 says you will turn back to god, but the laws of moses never say to turn the sword against the heathens in which they live with but its the other way around in leviticus 26:38. you also didnt read matthew 18:21-22,35 where it says to forgive those who sin like god forgives you. we also learn that in matthew 6:14-15

 

[Tagaziel]

Faithful? Naaah.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

god even gives instruction on how life is outside israel. deuteronomy 4:26-31 says you will turn back to god, but the laws of moses never say to turn the sword against the heathens in which they live with but its the other way around in leviticus 26:38. you also didnt read matthew 18:21-22,35 where it says to forgive those who sin like god forgives you. we also learn that in matthew 6:14-15

I don't know exactly what you mean in those first points (could you word your points more clearly?), but you are to forgive those who sin - IF they repent and covert to christianity.

Matthew 18:15
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother."

In Matt. 18:21-22, Jesus actually sets the number of times you can be forgiven at 490 times. If you sin 491 times, you are disqualified as a christian, I guess.

 

[delusional]

in the first part i was saying that god doesnt say to kill sinners when they are sent abroad and that they will be persecuted not them persecuting the heathens. and with the second part jesus says to keep bringing evidence against your brother and if he doesnt learn then you forgive him and treat him as a publican and a heathen. but guess how jesus acted towards them, he lived among them and didnt punish them, he attended to the lost sheeps.