HDR... in or not?

[CR0M]

I was going to write a long thing on how the lights and shadows in Doom 3 are far from realistic

are we looking at the same game here? and on the same detail levels? D3 is set in poorly lit corridors, the flashlight shadowing created for this environment is spot on. It even has attenuation ffs.

How can you compare this sort of lighting/shadowing with hi-res static renders of totally different environments? that kind of photoreality won't exist in games for a long LONG time, head-in-the-clouds boy

 

[lans]

You can enable HDR now in CS:S by editing 1 config file and adding a line but the dll is not there.

Post this in the cs:s board, with the direct instructions, Tork!

I want to see this feature in real-time. Then I'll judge is it worth the frames or not.

 

[Tork]

In theory it should work but id be breaking the rules its the same way you would do it on another version that i cant mention.

editing C:\Valve\Steam\SteamApps\youraccountname\counter-strike source beta\bin\dxsupport.cfg

and going down to your type of videocard, and adding the lines

"DXLevel" 90
"ShaderDLL" "xxxxxxxx_hdr_dx9.dll"

but again the dll is not there.

 

[Hyperion2010]

*bangs head repeatidly*

You know that "cartoonish" look in some of the CSS screenshots? Thats HDR. Source doesnt exagerate the effects like some other engines tho, which might be why it is harder to notice. Its also responsible for the glow around the lights in aztec...

 

[tranCendenZ]

Real question is will Valve support OpenEXR HDR (real HDR)... Since only NV has it this gen I doubt it, but ATI said they are adding it next gen, so possibly. Apparently CryEngine is gonna support it in next patch.

 

[ValveBULGE]

finally, keep in mind. You add one, it will look out of place with the rest. Part of the suspencion of disbelief is keeping things looking right with EACHOTHER. If you suddenly had photorealistic charechters, then the walls and shadows look out of place...

the only exception to the above rule is lighting. And sources lighting looks ace. and HDR is, well, part of lighting.

NO I AM SORRY BUT I WILL NOT BE PLAYING HL2 50 TIME EVERYTIME THEY WANT TO ADD SOMETHING. ADD IT KNOW IF YOU WANT AS AN OPTION PEOPLE WITH CRAPPY VIDEO CARDS AND TURN THIS FEATURE OFF OR GO AND BUY NEW CARD.

 

[ValveBULGE]

I have to agree with him.

ACUALLY BOTH OF YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT!!!

 

[Daiceman9]

ValveBULGE:

Seven sixteenths of one inch:

That's the distance you'd have to move your pinky in order to not sound like an idiot.

If you watch the Trainstation Bink from Yahoo, it looks like HDR on the floor when the guy is walking around, when the guy says dont drink the water.

 

[SkilledNewbie]

When my friend and I went to Valve about 2 weeks ago, Gabe showed us the HDR demo on the big conference room monitor running in real-time using the HL2 enigne. So if it's not going to be in the game at launch, it's definently going to be something they add later on.

~SkilledNewbie

 

[lans]

ValveBULGE:


If you watch the Trainstation Bink from Yahoo, it looks like HDR on the floor when the guy is walking around, when the guy says dont drink the water.

That's not HDR. That's specularity.

 

[CyFactor]

I was going to write a long thing on how the lights and shadows in Doom 3 are far from realistic, but it's 10:30AM (about time for me to go to sleep)... so I'll just link to some renders that I want games to look like:

http://graphics.ucsd.edu/~henrik/images/imgs/mie3pm.jpg
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/spluttergallery/pics/646.jpg
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/spluttergallery/pics/103.jpg
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/spluttergallery/pics/154.jpg
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/spluttergallery/pics/653.jpg
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/spluttergallery/pics/352.jpg
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/spluttergallery/pics/260.jpg
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/spluttergallery/pics/480.jpg
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/spluttergallery/pics/24.jpg
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/spluttergallery/pics/56.jpg

We are still quite a ways off from this in real time. Most (if not all) of these images are using radiosity calculations.

 

[omni]

Firingsquad says HDR is in:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/counter_strike_source/page2.asp

 

[felipaopl]

WTF? Those Firing Squad shots don't have HDR enabled, that's specularity.

 

[felipaopl]

LOL, that's not specularity, I meant just a glow effect.
Must be the beer...

 

[Crusader]

I already told you it was in... why does nobody listen...

 

[KagePrototype]

NO I AM SORRY BUT I WILL NOT BE PLAYING HL2 50 TIME EVERYTIME THEY WANT TO ADD SOMETHING. ADD IT KNOW IF YOU WANT AS AN OPTION PEOPLE WITH CRAPPY VIDEO CARDS AND TURN THIS FEATURE OFF OR GO AND BUY NEW CARD.

Congratulations, you have a Caps lock key. You must be proud.

Now please turn it off.

 

[BlumenKohl]

BLOOM IS NOT HDR. What FiringSquad is showing is bloom, you can see the glows are FADED.

HDR renders have a high dynamic range of colors, virtually endless, this higher range of colors allows you to simulate the human eye's sensitivity to light. Sit in a dark room, and go outside in to bright, you'll be blinded with bright white light for a few seconds. Stand there for a few minutes, and go back into an unlit room, you'll be blinded by total blackness for a few moments. HDR can enhance the bloom effect, which can be done without HDR.

If this was HDR, unlike what the klutzes at Firing Squad say

First of all, the sun would not have a faded color. It would bright, hot white, bleeding around. Secondly, the area inside, around the player would be VERY dark. Such is not the case.

 

[brisck1]

Here is how HL2 would look under HDR (these images are simulated>see originals HERE )

 

[tEd]

Here is how HL2 would look under HDR (these images are simulated>see originals HERE )

eh no sorry. HDR doesn't mean every kind light is magnified 10times

 

[MrD]

There are AT LEAST some basic HDR effects in CS:S. One example is lighting bloom, as you can see here (on the windows) ...

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/counter_strike_source/images/20.png

and in HL2 too (on the tree) ...

http://www.halflife2.net/news//1092567513_phl_season_1.jpg

I haven't seen any of the more advanced features in CS:S, such as retina simulation. That would involve walking into a tunnel that looked black from the outside and having it turning "normal" brightness while you are inside (simulating your eyes adjusting). While in the tunnel the outside would look pure bright white, until you walk out again.

And for those of you that clearly have no idea what HDR is, please don't talk about it like you do.

 

[SubKamran]

There are AT LEAST some basic HDR effects in CS:S. One example is lighting bloom, as you can see here (on the windows) ...

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/counter_strike_source/images/20.png

and in HL2 too (on the tree) ...

http://www.halflife2.net/news//1092567513_phl_season_1.jpg

I haven't seen any of the more advanced features in CS:S, such as retina simulation. That would involve walking into a tunnel that looked black from the outside and having it turning "normal" brightness while you are inside (simulating your eyes adjusting). While in the tunnel the outside would look pure bright white, until you walk out again.

And for those of you that clearly have no idea what HDR is, please don't talk about it like you do.

The retina simulation would be bad...people would complain :sniper:

 

[BlumenKohl]

Bloom is bloom. It has no relation to HDR. Far Cry uses it, Prince of Persia used it, Deus Ex II used it, etc.

What HDR does, is enhance bloom, so that color bleeding looks more realistic, and with a larger range of colors (at least, as far as your monitor can go).

Also, aside from the eye, what it can do is bring the higher range of colors to reflections (not specularity, actual reflections), meaning if you're standing outside, in a gray cloudy sky (such as in the Source HDR video), instead of getting a gray cloudy sky on the rooftop reflections, you get bright white reflections from the sky.

There's also a thing called HDRI, an HDR image, but I don't think Half-Life 2 uses that, since it's useless without radiosity.

The retina simulation would be bad...people would complain

The effect is so cool in motion, and would add so much to gameplay. Imagine, there's a room full of Combine, you're outside on a bright day, and it's dark in there with no windows. Do you blast your way in and fire blindly while your eyes adjust to the lack of lighting? Though for multiplayer, it'd be a disadvantage against people who don't use it, or who can't use it.

 

[MrD]

BLOOM IS NOT HDR.

HDR can enhance the bloom effect, which can be done without HDR.

If this was HDR, unlike what the klutzes at Firing Squad say

First of all, the sun would not have a faded color. It would bright, hot white, bleeding around. Secondly, the area inside, around the player would be VERY dark. Such is not the case.

Bloom cannot be done very well without HDR.

Your last paragraph is untrue. You assume that retina simulation is required (ie. the area inside being black part) in order to use bloom. This is not the case. It is quite possible to light an entire level at a single level and stick a very bright sun graphic in the sky. Thus causing the effect you see here.

 

[BlumenKohl]

Bloom is not HDR, they're two seperate post-processes. And I was saying it's not possible for that shot to have HDR because of the reason I gave.

 

[dis]

That bloom in the cs pics doesn't look as intense as the bloom you see in the source_HDR bink video. They look different to me.

 

[BlumenKohl]

Because that's "fake" bloom, or bloom without HDR. Even so, while they help each other, they can work independently. Play Far Cry for bloom without HDR.

 

[MrD]

I could have sworn the first time I read up on this I had it nailed. Clearly not. Anyway, I am now going to take my own advice and not talk about it anymore.

Bloom is not HDR.
Bloom is not HDR.
Bloom is not HDR.
Bloom is not HDR...

:frown:

 

[brisck1]

Ted you seem to be confused,Im not great at explaining these things but I have made another image to show how HDR works. Basically there are more colours past the range of 255,255,255 (LDR white)

HDR stores the amount of light every pixel represents instead of on-screen colors that normal bitmaps do. The advantage is greater dynamic range of light and color. Photorealistic lighting at its best.

 

[Triggerhappy41]

wrong

Shadows cast by bright, single point light sources such as a flashlight or direct sunlight have sharp edges, you only get fuzzy edges from indistinct diffused light like sun through cloud or pearl lightbulbs for example.
Fully black shadows exist only if there is one light source, ie. your torch - any other light such as ambient or reflected will reduce the blackness, and the shadows still remain sharp. Shine your flashlight on a lit surface, obviously the shadow won't be black.

D3 is as realistic as shadows get, I suggest you get some new glasses or a better graphics card

D3 is not even close to as realistic as shadows get. as that guy showed you, global illumination is how its supposed to be. I agree with you as far as one light source goes, yes, thats how shadows would look, but there are plenty of parts in the game with more than one light in the room or corridor. Shadows are still pitch black there. Light isnt this totally linear nonrelfecting thing that doom 3 shows. Its far from it. How doom three did the shadows made for a good horror game, but thats about it.

 

[BlumenKohl]

Radiosity and global illumination are far away, not even Unreal 3.0 engine has em.

 

[chriso20]

The retina simulation would be bad...people would complain :sniper:

I agree, there's 2 options as to realism in games;

1) SIMULATE IT.
2) ALLOW THE USER TO DO IT THEIRSELVES REALISTICALLY.

The "retina simulation" i'd imagine is something that the retina (real lol) does anyways, as the rest is light and the tunnel is dark its hard to see. (I found that in HL a bit too).
Simulating things apply to limitations with hardware and technology.eg. looking up at a 'blazing' sun will not flare the light and make it hard to see (also do u ever get a green tint when being in the sun for a long time then going back in doors?) and because of this we need to simulate it with technology.

[another quick interesting thing: the centre of your eye is more colour sensitive than the periphery (at the side of the eye, not in focus) and the periphery of the eye is more black&white sensitive. So if you need to see at night, don't look directly at it (this is pretty hard tho lol) ]

 

[Triggerhappy41]

Radiosity and global illumination are far away, not even Unreal 3.0 engine has em.

of course, it can take hours to render a single scene with global illumination. Someday it will be the standard in light, someday far into the future.

 

[poseyjmac]

bah, can't find out whether 3dc is going to be implemented by the release of hl2, or if its going to be added later, so i bumped this thread for info. anyone know?

 

[Thadius Dean]

Radiosity and global illumination are far away, not even Unreal 3.0 engine has em.

what are those things?

 

[PvtRyan]

Ah.... the old HDR discussion

Basically, what HDR does in games, is allow a pixel to have more than a 255,255,255 value. That's it. Source uses a 32-bit floating point precision for this, so there are 2^32 lightvalues that a pixel can have.
HDR doesn't produce anything visual for you, but it allows the programmers to create effects that use that higher precision. What you see (bloom, glare) are all post-processing effects and not direct results of HDR.
A short explanation of the HDR you see on your screen would be that a frame is checked for the avarage pixel brightness, then the pixels that exceed that value get a bloom or glare effect applied to them. A bloom effect is a post processing effect that is basically just a (gaussian) blur, and a glare effect is a motion blur in 4 directions. Those two effects are the visuals you see, but they are not a direct result of it. So HDR just allows higher precision that allows cool effects to be applied, like DoF (depth of field).

 

[poseyjmac]

ah

is bump mapping coming hl2 anyone?

 

[Ady]

You can get HDR working in the stress test.

 

[Sickmind]

I thought I knew what you were talking about...but I don't. Please tell me what HDR stands for.

 

[BlumenKohl]

HDR doesn't produce anything visual for you

Well, it does, it can render an image with a color channel of 800... or -900.

what are those things?

Global Illumination pretty much is the general category radiosity is in. It's the different algorithms used to simulate how light bounces off a surface, illuminates another, etc.

HDR stands for

High Dynamic Range. The forum you're reading now, this post, is low-dynamic range. Meaning there's 256 shades of colors. With high dynamic range you get a higher number of shades, which can simulate how your eye sees.

 

[SunshineRecorder]

Sorry to add to the discussion but I think my opinion can be helpful to some.

I agree with BlumenKohl and some of the others.

I am a photographer. The term high dynamic range is widelyyy used in photography when describing just what BlumenKohl described. Current "analog" photographic technology is very limited in terms of dynamic range (compared to the eye!) and some claim digital phtoography is even worse in these terms. If in the graphic world it means something different that in photography, then that's another matter altoghether.

In the HDR bink demo, what youll notice is the amount of detail in both highlights and shadows. It includes a HIGH dynamic range because the range includes a vast and subtle gradation between shadows and highlights. Detail is retained almost completely in the shadows, and even when there is detail in the shadows, some buildings outside are clearly visible (like the human eye can perceive) and not white and blown out (like film or video). Yes there are SOME blown out highlights, but that is also part of a high dynamic range. The problem is when the gradient involves NO highlight detail at all.

Try shooting suuuchh a complexxx scene as the HDR source demo with a camera and youll end up crying with the results. To get even something remoteeely close to the detail seen in the shadows (inside the room, where the demo starts) you'd completeeeeeely blow out anything outdoors and heck, even some of the lighter areas inside would be unnaceptably light.

Hope it helps.