Lawsuit against Rumsfeld for torture

[CptStern]

funny how so many of you try to down play the torture:

"oh it was just a little intimidation" or "it wasnt all that bad"

as if you were the ones experiencing it, but the evidence paints a very different picture ..in at least one case a prisoner died as a direct result of torture


no one addresses the tactics used, no one addressess that the evidence points to government sanctioned torture ...no one addressess that the CIA has long had a history of using specific torture methods that are consistent with the torture that is going on in iraq ..it's not isolated incidents, it's deliberate

here's a list of fbi records on torture, the majority of the files are heavily censored which is extremely damning considering it was requested through the FOIA (freedom of information act) ...if they had nothing to hide they would have released the uncensored documents to prosecutors

 

[Calanen]

here's a list of fbi records on torture, the majority of the files are heavily censored which is extremely damning considering it was requested through the FOIA (freedom of information act) ...if they had nothing to hide they would have released the uncensored documents to prosecutors

Well that may be so - but they are only *supposed* to keep the stuff out that is classified, ie would damage national security by being released. Im not naive enough to believe that they don't cover stuff up on the basis of national security. But, there is certainly the possibility that this is not

And btw, when u do see classified documents, which have been censored, you often go huh? why did they censor that....normally loads of boring stuff gets censored, and the really good stuff goes in the shredder.

But does that mean these people were tortured and that these documents contained evidence of torture that was so damning it was covered up? Perhaps. But we dont know either way.

 

[CptStern]

Well that may be so - but they are only *supposed* to keep the stuff out that is classified, ie would damage national security by being released. Im not naive enough to believe that they don't cover stuff up on the basis of national security. But, there is certainly the possibility that this is not

And btw, when u do see classified documents, which have been censored, you often go huh? why did they censor that....normally loads of boring stuff gets censored, and the really good stuff goes in the shredder.

But does that mean these people were tortured and that these documents contained evidence of torture that was so damning it was covered up? Perhaps. But we dont know either way.

you're supporting my assertation that the torture was ordered from above ..I mean, if it was individuals acts then why would the material need to be censored? ...not to mention that an FBI agent testified that 2 of the generals in iraq confirmed the orders had come from Rumsfeld


"One FBI agent, reporting on May 10 to superiors about an earlier conversation with Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller and Maj. Gen. Michael B. Dunleavey at Guantanamo Bay, said the two men cited Rumsfeld as the source of their authority to use techniques that the FBI regarded as potentially illegal and "not effective or producing intel that was reliable." The author of that report, whose name is redacted, said "both agreed the Bureau has their way of dong[sic] business and DoD has their marching orders from the Sec Def."

 

[GhostFox]

funny how so many of you try to down play the torture

I think any of the people involved in actual torture should be strung up by their guts.

That being said, I think it is important to make sure that the true accusations of torture are seperated from the victims who found things "uncomfortable".

 

[CptStern]

so you agree that rumsfeld should be strung up by his guts?

 

[No Limit]

so you agree that rumsfeld should be strung up by his guts?

And I think that someone who said these policies were legal shouldn't be our attorney general; oh shit, too late.

 

[GhostFox]

so you agree that rumsfeld should be strung up by his guts?

If he was directly involved a chain of command ordering torture, then yes.

However that doesn't mean he was. We have nothing but speculation.

 

[CptStern]

If he was directly involved a chain of command ordering torture, then yes.

However that doesn't mean he was. We have nothing but speculation.

nope, testimony not speculation:



"One FBI agent, reporting on May 10 to superiors about an earlier conversation with Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller and Maj. Gen. Michael B. Dunleavey at Guantanamo Bay, said the two men cited Rumsfeld as the source of their authority to use techniques that the FBI regarded as potentially illegal and "not effective or producing intel that was reliable." The author of that report, whose name is redacted, said "both agreed the Bureau has their way of dong[sic] business and DoD has their marching orders from the Sec Def."



I'll take the major-general's word over yours

 

[GhostFox]

It's not a condemnation of torture, it is one guy saying that Rummy may have approved something that could have been illegal, but not might be.

That is not proof. If they get proof of specific orders, they should nail the guy. But put aside everything else and look at this like a regular criminal trial. If that was the testimony given the judge would laugh and the defendant would walk.

 

[CptStern]

It's not a condemnation of torture, it is one guy saying that Rummy may have approved something that could have been illegal, but not might be.

point out where it says "may have"

"One FBI agent, reporting on May 10 to superiors about an earlier conversation with Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller and Maj. Gen. Michael B. Dunleavey at Guantanamo Bay, said the two men cited Rumsfeld as the source of their authority to use techniques that the FBI regarded as potentially illegal and "not effective or producing intel that was reliable." The author of that report, whose name is redacted, said "both agreed the Bureau has their way of dong[sic] business and DoD has their marching orders from the Sec Def."

 

[Razor]

Rumsfeld should be sacked and prosecuted for war crimes.

 

[No Limit]

Apperantly the ACLU is a terrorist group for this law suit. This is coming from the 'independent' O'Reilly:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503030007

 

[Absinthe]

Wow, O'Reilly compares Hitler to the ACLU... even though their policies are widely different.

That's just good ol' Bill for ya.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Wow, Michael Moore compares Bush to Hitler... even though their policies are widley different.

That's just good ol' Moore for ya. :rolling:

IKIDIKID DONT ****ING KILL ME

 

[burner69]

Wow, Michael Moore compares Bush to Hitler... even though their policies are widley different.

That's just good ol' Moore for ya. :rolling:

IKIDIKID DONT ****ING KILL ME

Well actually the ACLU are attempting to take a man to court for ordering, or at least allowing people under his command to break international law - and being called terrorists, and/or Hitler.

Bush's government has killed hundreds of thosuands of innocent people.... one's closer to the other...


Although I admit Bush ain't as bad as Hitler, Hitler was f**ked up, Bush is just misguided.

 

[Absinthe]

Wow, Michael Moore compares Bush to Hitler... even though their policies are widley different.

That's just good ol' Moore for ya. :rolling:

IKIDIKID DONT ****ING KILL ME

Actually, I've never seen, heard, or read Michael Moore directly compare Bush to Hitler.

Even if he did, it makes more sense than comparing an uber right-wing fascist to a civil liberties group.

But now I'm venturing into off-topic territory, so I'll just stop right here. :|

 

[OCybrManO]

George W Bush's official web site featured an animated ad during the last campaign that showed images of several prominent figures of the Democratic party mixed in with pictures of Hitler and other genocidal ****heads of similar magnitude. On the flip side, one of the MoveOn.org ads also compared GWB to Hitler. Apparently, in politics, anyone that disagrees with you must be a Nazi... regardless of whether or not there is any logical link whatsoever.

... so let's not get into a who-called-who-Hitler-fight. It's as pointless as a ring-tailed lemur playing hopscotch with the Pope being used to endorse an industrial strength paper shredder... oh and throw in some rap music playing in the background.

EDIT: Added images to help you make the visual.

 

[Calanen]

Actually, I've never seen, heard, or read Michael Moore directly compare Bush to Hitler.

Good ol Michael would never say anything like that - how dare you besmirch this man's name!

Filmmaker Michael Moore, one of the celebrities chosen by MoveOn to judge contest entrants, has suggested that the Bush administration is taking the first steps to Nazi-style authoritarianism. In his new book, Dude, Where’s My Country?, Moore writes that “The Patriot Act is as un-American as Mein Kampf.” Last October on CNN, Crossfire host Robert Novak said to Moore, “That’s obscene, to compare the Patriot Act with Mein Kampf.” “No,” Moore answered, “The Patriot Act is the first step.Mein Kampf was written long before Hitler came to power. And if the people of Germany had done something early on to stop these early signs...if people don’t speak up against this, you end up with something like they had in Germany.”

 

[burner69]

Good ol Michael would never say anything like that - how dare you besmirch this man's name!

Filmmaker Michael Moore, one of the celebrities chosen by MoveOn to judge contest entrants, has suggested that the Bush administration is taking the first steps to Nazi-style authoritarianism. In his new book, Dude, Where’s My Country?, Moore writes that “The Patriot Act is as un-American as Mein Kampf.” Last October on CNN, Crossfire host Robert Novak said to Moore, “That’s obscene, to compare the Patriot Act with Mein Kampf.” “No,” Moore answered, “The Patriot Act is the first step.Mein Kampf was written long before Hitler came to power. And if the people of Germany had done something early on to stop these early signs...if people don’t speak up against this, you end up with something like they had in Germany.”

Many people fear that right now.
Innocents being detained and tortured, even killed.
Slow removal of people's rights (debateable, but certainly an issue at the moment)
Emphasis on a perceived threat (search politics forum for "the power of nightmares")
Strengthening army
etc etc.

I'm not saying it IS happening, I'm saying I can understand people raising the issue.

 

[Absinthe]

Good ol Michael would never say anything like that - how dare you besmirch this man's name!

Filmmaker Michael Moore, one of the celebrities chosen by MoveOn to judge contest entrants, has suggested that the Bush administration is taking the first steps to Nazi-style authoritarianism. In his new book, Dude, Where’s My Country?, Moore writes that “The Patriot Act is as un-American as Mein Kampf.” Last October on CNN, Crossfire host Robert Novak said to Moore, “That’s obscene, to compare the Patriot Act with Mein Kampf.” “No,” Moore answered, “The Patriot Act is the first step.Mein Kampf was written long before Hitler came to power. And if the people of Germany had done something early on to stop these early signs...if people don’t speak up against this, you end up with something like they had in Germany.”

Where did you miss the part where I said I haven't seen these things?

And even if extreme, Moore's comparison makes more sense than comparing Nazism to the ACLU, something you conveniently ignored.

 

[seinfeldrules]

And even if extreme, Moore's comparison makes more sense than comparing Nazism to the ACLU, something you conveniently ignored.

You are basically saying it is OK because you agree with the comparison. It is sheer stupidity to compare either side to Nazis.

 

[CptStern]

I think the term "nazi" has come to mean 2 different things nowadays:

white-supremacy

facism


when I call someone a nazi bastard, I'm actually calling them a "facist", unless that is they exhibit racist attitudes

 

[No Limit]

Good ol Michael would never say anything like that - how dare you besmirch this man's name!

Filmmaker Michael Moore, one of the celebrities chosen by MoveOn to judge contest entrants, has suggested that the Bush administration is taking the first steps to Nazi-style authoritarianism. In his new book, Dude, Where’s My Country?, Moore writes that “The Patriot Act is as un-American as Mein Kampf.” Last October on CNN, Crossfire host Robert Novak said to Moore, “That’s obscene, to compare the Patriot Act with Mein Kampf.” “No,” Moore answered, “The Patriot Act is the first step.Mein Kampf was written long before Hitler came to power. And if the people of Germany had done something early on to stop these early signs...if people don’t speak up against this, you end up with something like they had in Germany.”

So he is comparing a policy to nazi policies. How is this comparing Bush directly to a nazi again?

 

[SupremePain]

I think the term "nazi" has come to mean 2 different things nowadays:

white-supremacy

facism


when I call someone a nazi bastard, I'm actually calling them a "facist", unless that is they exhibit racist attitudes

national socialisme (nazi)..... looking down/miss-using other nationalities to somehow raise the standards of your country.

don't you just love it? i know a woman who basicly is a nazi, though she denies it. She says that immegrants should work on contracts and be deported when their contract expires. What a psycho.

 

[CptStern]

ann colture?

 

[Absinthe]

You are basically saying it is OK because you agree with the comparison. It is sheer stupidity to compare either side to Nazis.

When did I say it was OK?

I said it made more sense. I could list comparisons between Hitler and Bush. Does that make them the same? No, don't be ridiculous. But there are noticable similarities.

The comparison of Nazism to the ACLU is the comparison of polar opposites, and O'Reilly's comment about Hitler being a "card-carrying member of the ACLU" is meant only to provoke an emotional response in those that don't know any better.

 

[Absinthe]

So he is comparing a policy to nazi policies. How is this comparing Bush directly to a nazi again?

That's another good question.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

A question that came out of left field -- thats like, someone from the crowd at a baseball game pitching for batter ...

 

[No Limit]

A question that came out of left field -- thats like, someone from the crowd at a baseball game pitching for batter ...

Good one :thumbs:

I dont think I need sarcasm tags for this post.