Liberals

[ShadowFox]

Does anybody else find it funny how conservatives in the US use "liberal" as a derogatory name for moderates, while true classical liberalism is/was the economic mantra of the Republican party?

The Democrats haven't ever been liberals. (economically)

 

[Absinthe]

It does seem to have a stigma to it, but I have no problem with being one. If people really think it's such a horrible thing to be, then fine. I'll kindly escort them to the nearest short bus.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Huh? Liberal and conservative. I find nothing derogatory about being called a conservative, what makes you think that being called a liberal is an insult?

 

[Scoobnfl]

Since ya'll seem like a couple of lowbrowed demorons, tell me this...........


Why after Johnson's Great Society, which translates into 40 years and 8 trillion dollars, has there been no measurable decrease in poverty, a decrease in minority 2 parent households, decreases in the graduation rates of minorities, an absolutely appauling small percentage of minorities that are ready for college after graduating high school, an increase in % on welfare, an increase in teen pregnancy, an increase in incarceration rates, increase in death rates of young black and hispanic men.................... it goes on and on and on and on.

Why won't the left empower minorities as opposed to enabling their poverty, disease, addicition, why do you continue to oppress them with your "handouts" and "solutions"?

 

[ShadowFox]

Huh? Liberal and conservative. I find nothing derogatory about being called a conservative, what makes you think that being called a liberal is an insult?

I don't think being called liberal is an insult. But you gotta admit many republicans use it as a derogatory term. Just as Democrats have their little pet names for republicans.

I was just bringing up the irony that at least economically, the Republican party was based on classical liberalism.

 

[Absinthe]

Huh? Liberal and conservative. I find nothing derogatory about being called a conservative, what makes you think that being called a liberal is an insult?

Of course there's nothing inherently wrong with those labels. But it would seem that both "conservative" and "liberal" are used more as insults in the political arena.

 

[Absinthe]

Since ya'll seem like a couple of lowbrowed demorons, tell me this...........


Why after Johnson's Great Society, which translates into 40 years and 8 trillion dollars, has there been no measurable decrease in poverty, a decrease in minority 2 parent households, decreases in the graduation rates of minorities, an absolutely appauling small percentage of minorities that are ready for college after graduating high school, an increase in % on welfare, an increase in teen pregnancy, an increase in incarceration rates, increase in death rates of young black and hispanic men.................... it goes on and on and on and on.

Why won't the left empower minorities as opposed to enabling their poverty, disease, addicition, why do you continue to oppress them with your "handouts" and "solutions"?

WTF does this have to do with the topic?

 

[Scoobnfl]

WTF does this have to do with the topic?

can't or won't answer? which is it?

 

[Ennui]

Huh? Liberal and conservative. I find nothing derogatory about being called a conservative, what makes you think that being called a liberal is an insult?

I do not consider being called "liberal" an insult; though it is an intentionally derogatory term for many conservatives. Listen to political debates; highly conservative people generally use liberal as an insult, and a rather grave one too.

 

[Absinthe]

To be honest, I can't answer that because I'm not qualified to. But I also have no idea as to where your sources are. You could be pulling that info out of your ass for all I know.

I also don't see why I should even bother with answering if it's only going to result in a massive de-railing of the topic. So I repeat: WTF does this have to do with the topic?

 

[Bodacious]

Conservatives don't use "liberal" as an insult, liberals take their label as an insult.

Read this

As long as my intentions are good I can call you anything I want.

 

[Absinthe]

Conservatives don't use "liberal" as an insult, liberals take their label as an insult.

Read this

As long as my intentions are good I can call you anything I want.

Good for you and your intentions. But it's quite obvious that people in the political arena have very different ones to yours. When Bush can bash Kerry for being liberal, or when people can publish books about "The Liberal Agenda", then I think it's safe for me to believe that these people think rather lowly of my political stance.

And I didn't read your link since it was taking too long to load.

 

[Bodacious]

And? That doesn't mean liberls aren't taking their label too seriously.

"The liberal agenda" doesn't sound deragatory to me. Nerither would a book called "The Conservative Agenda" offend me.

The only reason liberal is negative label is becase liberals take it to serious.

Read the link.

 

[Absinthe]

And? That doesn't mean liberls aren't taking their label too seriously.

"The liberal agenda" doesn't sound deragatory to me. Nerither would a book called "The Conservative Agenda" offend me.

The only reason liberal is negative label is becase liberals take it to serious.

But you haven't been having shit thrown at you for the past couple of years. Now, I will admit that there are some libs that will fly off the handle if addressed with such a label, but I do have the ability to read between the lines.

Read the link.

It doesn't load.

 

[Scoobnfl]

It doesn't load.

the text if you're interested.



EVIL KNIEVEL FORBIDDEN FROM SUING WEBSITE



Aging daredevil EVEL KNIEVEL has been prevented from suing a website that ran a photo of him with a caption reading "you're never too old to be a pimp".

The motorcycle maniac was furious when he saw the photo on extreme sports internet site EXPN.COM, which showed him with his arms around his wife and a second young woman.

But Montana appeals court ruled yesterday the term "pimp" could be taken as a compliment.

JUDGE WALLACE TASHIMA says, "Although the word 'pimp' may be reasonably capable of defamatory meaning when read in isolation, we agree with the district court's assessment that 'the term loses its meaning when considered in the context presented here'.

"The term 'pimp' as used on the EXPN.com Web site was not intended as a criminal accusation, nor was it reasonably susceptible to such a literal interpretation. Ironically, it was most likely intended as a compliment."

05/01/2005 17:32








CONTACTMUSIC.COM Limited is not responsible for the content, reliability or authenticity of the foregoing news feed and does not necessarily endorse the views expressed within. Without exception, listings shall not be taken as an endorsement of any kind whatsoever.

 

[Ennui]

That is barely related, it doesn't correlate at all and it's a horrible example. Pimp can go either way, it's not always a compliment (in fact, it generally isn't except among high schoolers).

If you're trying to say that many top conservative debators do NOT use "liberal" as a deriding insult, you're completely wrong.

 

[Bodacious]

You have to look at the context of the term.

I disagree and think that a lot of the instances where concervatives are labeling someone liberal to be condecending are you just getting your panties in a bunch and taking the term out of context.

Look at what Bush said during the debates. He called Kerry liberal so people could identify him with being a tax and spend liberal and other liberal ideals.

Now then, since liberal ideals being right or wrong is a matter of opinion and liberals are going to think they are right, then what are they worried about when they are being called liberals?

No conservative gets mad because they are being called conservative.

This is like someone being called skinny or short or black. So what. That is who you are, be proud.

 

[ShadowFox]

It is used as a derogatory term by some conservatives. You can tell simply by the inflection. But that is not the point.

In fact, you outlined my very point. I don't see how the term liberal was modified in the US to mean "tax and spend". Liberal ideology by definition is in fact closer to Libertarian ideals. The idea of liberalism is to be advantageous to business and free market policies. So how did it become intertwined with a more socialist new deal era Democratic party?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

The current liberals in the US aren't completely the same as in the rest of the world, either- same for conservatives.

Like Shadowfox said- it's weird how current liberals have the term when it is strikingly opposing to their views. I'm thinking they adopted it because the democratic party has historically tried to paint itself as the party of social issues, and those on the left started referring to themselves as that.

The political compass helps clarify this. Bliink posted a link a while back. If we are thinking liberal in terms of economics, we are thinking right wing- a right to trade as you wish, free people. Generally (not always. We see a difference with libertarians and with a good half of the Republican party in the US) this type tends to be more strict on social issues though.

If we are looking at liberal in terms of social issues, we are thinking left wing- a view opposing current social laws (such as many states banning gay marriage, etc) However, (not always, once again, a good portion of the US Democratic party are capitalist) this group tends to have socialism and other economic restraints/limited economic freedom.

It's just that in modern times, liberal is almost 100% used to mean the second definition.


Now in other areas of the world the definitions are different- particularly the middle east, liberals are a united front of left wingers and right wingers, with conservatives generally being those who wish to uphold theocracy and other institutions over there.

 

[seinfeldrules]

But you haven't been having shit thrown at you for the past couple of years. Now, I will admit that there are some libs that will fly off the handle if addressed with such a label, but I do have the ability to read between the lines.

Kind of like the 'vast Right Wing conspiracy'...

 

[ShadowFox]

Kind of like the 'vast Right Wing conspiracy'...

Yeah.. that is a good example of it going the other way, although at least that is a little less misleading than liberal.

 

[Absinthe]

Kind of like the 'vast Right Wing conspiracy'...

Exactly.

This crap exists on both sides of the fence.

 

[The Monkey]

In Swedish point of view, the democrats are conservatives. The Swedish Liberate party, the People’s Party (Folkpartiet) is communists compared to the democrats. Well, almost.

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

Of course there's nothing inherently wrong with those labels. But it would seem that both "conservative" and "liberal" are used more as insults in the political arena.

You're stating the obvious on this. Politicians do label the other side either liberal or conservative in deragotry tones. Why? Because their constituants have a bent the opposite way so it keeps the votes at home. It's not the politicians but the people who make the distinction of what's right and what's idiotic.

In the old days the really good politicians didn't expose enough about themselves to be labeled one way or the other. Since Reagan however the parties have come out of the closet on their agendas so labeling has become alot easier.

Liberalism and conservative isn't attached to a party. (At least over time). In the 60's and before that the staunchest conservatives were the Southern Democrats.

That is the reason we saw so many Dems switch sides in the last two elections the party has been swinging for the past 20 years.

It'll be interesting to see what the Dems do for the next go around. Will they again put up a candidate like Kerry who was so far left he almost fell off the map or will they go back to the gray area between lieralism and conservatism like they did with Clinton?

 

[seinfeldrules]

This crap exists on both sides of the fence.

The sad thing is the person who coined that phrase could easily be president 4 years from now.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

You're stating the obvious on this. Politicians do label the other side either liberal or conservative in deragotry tones. Why? Because their constituants have a bent the opposite way so it keeps the votes at home. It's not the politicians but the people who make the distinction of what's right and what's idiotic.

In the old days the really good politicians didn't expose enough about themselves to be labeled one way or the other. Since Reagan however the parties have come out of the closet on their agendas so labeling has become alot easier.

Liberalism and conservative isn't attached to a party. (At least over time). In the 60's and before that the staunchest conservatives were the Southern Democrats.

That is the reason we saw so many Dems switch sides in the last two elections the party has been swinging for the past 20 years.

It'll be interesting to see what the Dems do for the next go around. Will they again put up a candidate like Kerry who was so far left he almost fell off the map or will they go back to the gray area between lieralism and conservatism like they did with Clinton?

If Dean wins the DNC Chairman position you can expect to see the Democratic party swing even farther to the left than it has for even the past two elections.

 

[ShadowFox]

If Dean wins the DNC Chairman position you can expect to see the Democratic party swing even farther to the left than it has for even the past two elections.

Perhaps. It is interesting to note that most of the newer members of the party are much more moderate than the old guard who are eventually on their way out.

 

[^Ben]

Hillary Clinton Baybeeee.

Lets see her get caught up in some sordid sex scandal

 

[No Limit]

Since ya'll seem like a couple of lowbrowed demorons, tell me this...........


Why after Johnson's Great Society, which translates into 40 years and 8 trillion dollars, has there been no measurable decrease in poverty, a decrease in minority 2 parent households, decreases in the graduation rates of minorities, an absolutely appauling small percentage of minorities that are ready for college after graduating high school, an increase in % on welfare, an increase in teen pregnancy, an increase in incarceration rates, increase in death rates of young black and hispanic men.................... it goes on and on and on and on.

Why won't the left empower minorities as opposed to enabling their poverty, disease, addicition, why do you continue to oppress them with your "handouts" and "solutions"?

Please, enlighten me as how you conservatives would fix these problems; by getting rid of all the social programs such as welfare?

As for poverty increasing; have you ever heard of the crack epidemic? Crack has destroyed many house holds and families in poor areas. I can go in to that a lot deeper but I really want your reply on the above question.

 

[No Limit]

Does anybody else find it funny how conservatives in the US use "liberal" as a derogatory name for moderates

This is due to the wonderful GOP spin machine. Remember in the campaigns where they used "Kerry, the most liberal senator"? The fact is that most 'liberal' senators fell in to pretty much the same 95 rating he got. That's the best example of this great spin machine we call the GOP.

 

[Sgt_Shellback]

This is due to the wonderful GOP spin machine. Remember in the campaigns where they used "Kerry, the most liberal senator"? The fact is that most 'liberal' senators fell in to pretty much the same 95 rating he got. That's the best example of this great spin machine we call the GOP.

But wait a minute. How do you call it spin when it was the truth? He had the second most liberal voting record in congress. That's not spin.

The GOP used his voting record against him for sure. They were betting that the US as a whole was conservative and the Dems were betting that the US as a whole was liberal. The Dems were as far wrong as they are far left.

The Dems are probably letting it sink in that the people are not behind them when they pitch a lefty but they're going to have a tough time letting go because the person that many consider to be their next shining star (Hillary) has the 1st highest liberal voting record.

But I'll admit the talk about Hillary being up next is mainly coming from the GOP right now. Why? Spin baby.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Hillary Clinton Baybeeee.

Lets see her get caught up in some sordid sex scandal

You just made my stomach turn :[ :bonce:

 

[No Limit]

But wait a minute. How do you call it spin when it was the truth? He had the second most liberal voting record in congress. That's not spin.

http://www.factcheck.org/article284.html

 

[yadalogo]

Y'all stop makin up fancy words like consider and freedom!

 

[falconwind]

In Canada, our ruling politcal party right now is the Liberal Party. And they are pretty much in line with classic liberalism, that is a balance between socialism and conservatism. As far as I can tell, they are socially progressive, and economically conservative, which i'm generally okay with.

But Shadow is correct, when people use the term 'liberal' in the US, it's a jeer, a mockery. Calling someone a liberal these days is the equivalent of calling a person a pinko in the 1970s. That is how far left the term implies, despite the fact that historically, it's not accurate.

Conservatives don't mind the being known as such, because that is what they are.
Many so-called "liberals", on the otherhand, are MISLABELED. Most "Liberals" in the US are not true liberals, but more accurately moderates (ie. moderate conservatives). It's a misnomer.

I think what people resent is that moderates, true liberals, and socialists get generalized and grouped under a single umbrella, without disctinction. So when a conservative calls a person a 'liberal', they are basically ignoring what that person really represents. By calling a person a liberal in that way, they show that the don't acknowledge the differences between the groups.

It's the generalization that I think gets people riled.

 

[falconwind]

But wait a minute. How do you call it spin when it was the truth? He had the second most liberal voting record in congress. That's not spin.

The GOP used his voting record against him for sure. They were betting that the US as a whole was conservative and the Dems were betting that the US as a whole was liberal. The Dems were as far wrong as they are far left.

The Dems are probably letting it sink in that the people are not behind them when they pitch a lefty but they're going to have a tough time letting go because the person that many consider to be their next shining star (Hillary) has the 1st highest liberal voting record.

But I'll admit the talk about Hillary being up next is mainly coming from the GOP right now. Why? Spin baby.

What I didn't like about the GOP spinning Kerry was that they kept hitting him with his voting for the Patriot Act, but not supporting it publically.

After 9/11, everyone was expected to vote for the Patriot Act. Doing so was basically an example of solidarity between the two parties. If he had voted against the PA, he's have caught major shit from all sides. It was a political choice to go with the flow, and the last time I checked, Kerry was a politician.
And I don't care how many trees Bush cuts down with a chainsaw, or how long he spends at his ranch, he's a politician too.

It's important to remember that Bush isn't any more of a working-class stiff or a man of integrity than Kerry or Clinton.

Honestly, I wouldn't put it past him to fake being a devout Christian... I mean, think about it. Maybe he really is born-again. But nevertheless, it is a brilliant political move, with awesome political benefits. I mean, honestly, the only people who know for sure is God and Dubya.

 

[Mattigus]

Liberal, in it's 18th century usage, actually is a word describing something with liberty. America, along with the UK, are considered liberal democracies. Russia would be considered an illiberal democracy, because it is a democracy, but the President can excercise dictator-like power, such as censoring the media, which is obviously an infraction against liberty.

Modern usage of liberals, such as describing people who are extremely far left, began with the Reagan administration. Afterwards, it's been used as a derogatory term against democrats by people like George Bush, Bill O'Reilly, and that hateful bitch, Anne Coultier.