Opinions needed

[WhiteBoxEternity]

I am currently looking into mod creation, in the field of the RPG.

Instead of relying solely on my own opinions and ideas, I would like to ask you, the community, what you would like to see in a half life rpg. What ticks you off about rpg's you have played, and what did you most like about them?

 

[Gusdor]

Not enough dragons! And when there are dragons, they are really hard to kill!
Not enough passive questing for shear exploration value. Sod XP and monsters. I want to be taken to a rich environment with interesting things to find

 

[Darkling]

something thats always ticked me off is that most rpgs focus too much on leveling and not enough about strategy or story

 

[Pesmerga]

Mmm.... I dunno,

1) Study Diablo
2) ????
3) Profit

 

[Cole]

Study the oringal Diablo game, capture it's atmosphere(NOT D2 ATMOSPHERE!) and write a background story thats equally as good as Diablo's. Then write a story that is equally as good that you can build off of.

Then....

Diablo has one of the most oringal and amazing background stories I have ever read...... This isn't just a "Conquer the world" or anything like that. It is really a heaven vs hell battle but yet...there is soo much more to it that brings the mortal world in the middle and why everything how it is.
it isn't "Evil invaded the lands".
It's about Betrayal, diversion, banishment, civil war....and how heaven got so lucky to be spared.

 

[WhiteBoxEternity]

Well, I can say right now, there isnt going to be a heaven and hell. There will be something like it. Right now, I'm not too big on putting a ton of thought into the story. Its just not something I'm that interested in atm. If I find a good writer, or become a good writer =D, and if this story issue really becomes that big of a deal, you can bet I'll do the best I can.

 

[OCybrManO]

Right now, I'm not too big on putting a ton of thought into the story. Its just not something I'm that interested in atm. If I find a good writer, or become a good writer =D, and if this story issue really becomes that big of a deal, you can bet I'll do the best I can.

Let me get this straight... you want to make an RPG but skip the story? What kind of game are you trying to make? Is this a trimmed down version of a MMORPG (already notorious for just grinding for experience and loot)? Does RPG stand for Repeatedly Probing for Gold or Repetitious Pugilistic Growth? No, it's Role-Playing Game. You play a role. You take on a character. I'll just put it this way: The draw of D&D isn't the kick-ass dice combat, the awesome graphics, or some number on a piece of paper. Without an in-depth story invloving some sort of quests an RPG is just a beat-em-up game in which you get better equipment and/or more powerful attacks/skills as you go. By that classification you could include HL2... since you start with no weapons and gradually work your way up to more powerful ones... then you even get an upgrade to your armor and gravity gun near the end.

Why, exactly, were you drawn to making an RPG mod... if not for the story? Perhaps you should make a game of some other genre, since you don't seem to be very interested in the RP part of RPGs.

... or I could be mistaken.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

I am currently looking into mod creation, in the field of the RPG.

Instead of relying solely on my own opinions and ideas, I would like to ask you, the community, what you would like to see in a half life rpg. What ticks you off about rpg's you have played, and what did you most like about them?

The way the majority of RPGs like to force you into categories. You have to be a "Warrior", or a "Mage", you can't invent your own thing. The only RPGs I've really seen that have broken this mould are Morrowind (which only partly allowed it) and Ultima Online (which had a brilliant way of handling skills, in my opinion).

-Angry Lawyer

 

[WhiteBoxEternity]

Let me get this straight... you want to make an RPG but skip the story? What kind of game are you trying to make? Is this a trimmed down version of a MMORPG (already notorious for just grinding for experience and loot)? Does RPG stand for Repeatedly Probing for Gold or Repetitious Pugilistic Growth? No, it's Role-Playing Game. You play a role. You take on a character. I'll just put it this way: The draw of D&D isn't the kick-ass dice combat, the awesome graphics, or some number on a piece of paper. Without an in-depth story invloving some sort of quests an RPG is just a beat-em-up game in which you get better equipment and/or more powerful attacks/skills as you go. By that classification you could include HL2... since you start with no weapons and gradually work your way up to more powerful ones... then you even get an upgrade to your armor and gravity gun near the end.

Why, exactly, were you drawn to making an RPG mod... if not for the story? Perhaps you should make a game of some other genre, since you don't seem to be very interested in the RP part of RPGs.

... or I could be mistaken.

To be honest, I was never drawn to an rpg for the storyline. I was drawn by the gaining of levels and getting cool equipment and new skills and attacks and all that jazz. I guess I'm just not as sophisticated as most rpg players. Now, lets get one thing straigt, I wasn't planning on skipping the storyline altogether, as you seem to think. That would be retarded. I just didn't plan on making it the highlight of the game. But from what I gather, unless I do, it'll be a flop, as you have so kindly pointed out. Right now, I have an outline for my story, so I at least have something to work from. I guess I really need to start hammering out the details. If you have any suggestions as to, in general, how to make a storyline not suck, they would be much appreciated.

The way the majority of RPGs like to force you into categories. You have to be a "Warrior", or a "Mage", you can't invent your own thing. The only RPGs I've really seen that have broken this mould are Morrowind (which only partly allowed it) and Ultima Online (which had a brilliant way of handling skills, in my opinion).

-Angry Lawyer

Well, atm, the plan is to have four classes:
Warrior, Elementalist, Summoner, and Bloodmage. Warrior and Elementalist(or mage) are, like you said, in just about every fantasy rpg, but you just gotta have em. Summoner is almost as common. He creates magical beings to aid him in battle and that sort of thing. This might sound really weird, but I'm going to have him use bows. The Bloodmage is my "invent your own thing." Instead of useing mana, he'll use life to cast spells. To compensate for using up life, I'll have him have twice as much life as the others, and his spells will be the most powerful of any class.

 

[Pesmerga]

Story / Atmosphere is quite vital to an RPG.

And the idea of a Bloodmage class has been "done".

I think FFX-2 has the best class / role system in the industry, it is very original and inventive. Too bad it had a shitty story.

You will fail if you fail to add a good story.

 

[WhiteBoxEternity]

Fair enough.
I didn't mean to say bloodmage hasnt been done before at all, I just meant it isnt as common as other, and thus provides entertaining variety.
And lets keep in mind this is a hl2 mod, there is no possible way to compete with the other rpgs out there. Don't ask me to.

And how is thier story shitty? Trying to learn here

 

[Pesmerga]

Fair enough.
I didn't mean to say bloodmage hasnt been done before at all, I just meant it isnt as common as other, and thus provides entertaining variety.
And lets keep in mind this is a hl2 mod, there is no possible way to compete with the other rpgs out there. Don't ask me to.

And how is thier story shitty? Trying to learn here

Well first off, yeah you're right, the Bloodmage isn't as common.

FFX-2 had a really horrendous story and execution in my opinion because well, it had been done before, literally. I really liked the artistic approach to the game, but I think the cheery happy theme would have done a lot better had the story not evolved around a huge killing machine called Vegnagun that wanted to obliterate the world. Two very contrasting motifs, two very conflicting ones.

As for being a HL2 RPG well, honestly I think you picked the wrong engine to work off of. But in any case, you need to keep your mod very story driven. As Gabe had said before, Source was developed for making very beautiful characters and environments. I've learned not to doubt the capabilities of Source, it has surpassed my beliefs of what it could do many, many times. But indeed, if you've ever played Diablo, you already know that atmosphere is key.

If I were you, I'd develop a system wherein you develop the "class" over a brief introduction into the game, where the player can choose his playing style without actually literally knowing what class he chose. Something along the lines of asking the player (in a scene, not literally) if he'd rather have a sword, shield, or scepter (a la' Kingdom Hearts) and build from there, allowing the player to create his own character without being told what path he's following.

As for story writing, give the player a sense of where/when/why they are at the very beginning of the story without actually telling them. Never, ever use words or dialogue that "give away" key facts about the story, simply give him a reason to be in a specific place and where his goal is, let atmosphere and events fill in from there.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Well, atm, the plan is to have four classes:
Warrior, Elementalist, Summoner, and Bloodmage. Warrior and Elementalist(or mage) are, like you said, in just about every fantasy rpg, but you just gotta have em. Summoner is almost as common. He creates magical beings to aid him in battle and that sort of thing. This might sound really weird, but I'm going to have him use bows. The Bloodmage is my "invent your own thing." Instead of useing mana, he'll use life to cast spells. To compensate for using up life, I'll have him have twice as much life as the others, and his spells will be the most powerful of any class.

To be honest, it'd be a lot more creative if instead of four predefined classes, you instead broke it down into skills. Swordsmanship, Staff Use, Axes, Elemental Magic, Summoning Magic, Blood Magic, Druidic Magic, Healing. Excetera. Mix and max the skills, your title gets decided based on what skill you have levelled the highest. Customisability is what draws me into an RPG.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[WhiteBoxEternity]

Alright sweet, thanx for the input.

One thing I'm a little worried about, in view of the customizable thing, is that haveing such freedom will mean you can shape you guy and have him do anything you want. While this would be a good thing, it also takes away from things im trying to create. I want to create a mod that is both single player and multi player. In single player, you go on quests, level up, get items, that kind of thing. Then in multiplayer, go join your friends in big coop battles agianst huge, insanley strong monsters, or just hordes of little guys you can wade through, because hell, thats just way too much fun not to have. In mulyiplayer, i want to encourage helping eachother, which means that there will be certain monsters that are very strong agianst a certain class, and weak agianst another. Thus, if you can make your guy anything and everything you want, itll destroy that feel.

 

[Pesmerga]

The counter-class technique in gameplay is a bad one, imo.

Set rules for the world, fire hurts water, axes do extra damage to unarmored foes while swords to extra damage to armored ones, ect. A lot of young developers (including me) like to view a possibility of a romanticized battle. Try very hard to avoid looking at the game in your mind. Look at the game as peices, fundamental peices, that build to the game.

Don't try and look at the game as "Hey wouldn't it be cool if a Warrior and an Elementalist worked together against a bunch of Orc goblins??? The Warrior could tank the goblins and lure them away from the Elementalist, as to give him a chance to cast (AoE spell here)" and then work off that. Look at it this way... "Hey, I want to make a game that encourages imaginative use of spells and weaponry to overcome certain situationed enemies while displaying a broad potrait of dramatified medieval fantasy battle"

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Alright sweet, thanx for the input.

One thing I'm a little worried about, in view of the customizable thing, is that haveing such freedom will mean you can shape you guy and have him do anything you want. While this would be a good thing, it also takes away from things im trying to create. I want to create a mod that is both single player and multi player. In single player, you go on quests, level up, get items, that kind of thing. Then in multiplayer, go join your friends in big coop battles agianst huge, insanley strong monsters, or just hordes of little guys you can wade through, because hell, thats just way too much fun not to have. In mulyiplayer, i want to encourage helping eachother, which means that there will be certain monsters that are very strong agianst a certain class, and weak agianst another. Thus, if you can make your guy anything and everything you want, itll destroy that feel.

Not if you make learning one skill detrimental to the learning of another skill, or make them slightly less miscible. In Ultima Online, if you were going to be a warrior, you pretty much had to wear armour. However, the more metal you wore, the slower your mana would regenerate. In addition, you couldn't cast while holding weapons. Therefore, people wanting to be warrior/mages had a pretty much tougher time. In addition, there were some 30 odd skills, each which had a maximum of 100% - but you couldn't gain more than 700%. Which means, you could only have 7 skills at maximum levels. Branching out further would make you less proficient at the skills, because you couldn't raise them any higher.

Choice is what keeps people playing Ultima Online, even though its now seven years old. People don't like being shoved into categories. How unique is your online persona if one in four people has exactly the same attributes?

-Angry Lawyer

 

[WhiteBoxEternity]

Aaah, I see what you mean now. A very good point indeed. I'll look into it. Thanx.

 

[Pesmerga]

I think a more modern example is Diablo II. Skills were branched over three "trees" for each class, each tree had a completely different play style, each skill had a maximum of 20 natural levels, with 99 natural available points to spend them in over the course of your character (1 point per level, 99 levels).

 

[Angry Lawyer]

I think a more modern example is Diablo II. Skills were branched over three "trees" for each class, each tree had a completely different play style, each skill had a maximum of 20 natural levels, with 99 natural available points to spend them in over the course of your character (1 point per level, 99 levels).

That's half-way between class-based and skill-based. Diablo 2 required you to pick a tree to start with, and it didn't allow you to venture into other trees.

One interesting possibility would be, every time you gain sizable amounts of experience on a skill (such as swordsmanship), it pumps some sort of invisible "warrior flag" inside the character. Thereafter, melee skills are slightly easier to gain, and magic is rather much harder to gain in.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[WhiteBoxEternity]

You sure? I remeber being able to put skills into all the trees.

I like the flag idea

 

[OCybrManO]

That's half-way between class-based and skill-based. Diablo 2 required you to pick a tree to start with, and it didn't allow you to venture into other trees.

So, like Dungeon Siege? If you want, you can be a jack of all trades... but each skill will be significantly weaker than if you had focused on one. Also, your title is generated from your skill-set and level.

 

[Cole]

That's half-way between class-based and skill-based. Diablo 2 required you to pick a tree to start with, and it didn't allow you to venture into other trees.

Each character has 3 trees he can put spells into at any time(considering you have a spell point and all pre.). Trust me, I played Diablo 2 for YEARS.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Each character has 3 trees he can put spells into at any time(considering you have a spell point and all pre.). Trust me, I played Diablo 2 for YEARS.

But a Barbarian could never learn "Raise Dead", and a Paladin could never learn "Fireball". It DOES shove you into a box.

Dungeon siege is a very good example of what I'm on about, but I found the fact that there were only four skills rather limiting. Ultima Online had about 30.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Puzzlemaker]

I agree with angry lawyer; thats precisly what I would look for. Nice, customizable charectors, so I can change charectors to the way I like it.

 

[Crispy]

Play Fallout.
Learn about how to customise your chars without being specifically told what you're customising them into. Learn about how to have an array of skills that will truly customise your char. Learn about the benefits (and drawbacks) of an open gameplay style.
The End.

 

[Mutley]

something thats always ticked me off is that most rpgs focus too much on leveling and not enough about strategy or story

Couldn't agree more.

Morrowind is the best singleplayer RPG. Play it, you will see how an RPG is ment to be.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Ultima Online, in my opinion, is the only RPG to ever hit perfect skills customizability.

-Angry Lawyer