Roger Ebert talks about reaction to his Transformers 2 review + anti-intellectualism

[CptStern]

Roger Ebert is a moron! Transformers 2 is the best action movie ever. Don't listem to that moron! He is only into slow boring romantic movies. That is his type of movies. Michael Bay did a great good. Roger... your an old fart! John C

Having now absorbed all or parts of 750 responses to my complaints about "Transformers," I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that most of those writing agree with me that it is a horrible movie. After all, look where they've chosen to comment. There have, however been some disagreements that I thought were reasonable. These writers mostly said they had a thing about the Transformers toys of their childhoods, or liked the animation on TV, or like to see stuff blowed up real good. In that case. Michael Bay is your man. If you enjoyed the movie, there is no way I can say you're wrong. About yourself, anyway.

Another common line of attack was disturbing. It came from people who said I was out of touch with the tastes of the audience. That the movie's detractors (lumped together as "the critics") like only obscure movies that nobody else does--art films, documentaries, foreign films, indies, movies made 50 years ago--even, God forbid, "classics." One poster argued that "Transformers" was better than that boring old movie "Casablanca."

I was informed I didn't "get" Michael Bay. I was too old, "of the wrong generation," or an elitist or a liberal

sounds familiar

"Brainiac:" Must be a critic. Thinks he knows it all, and never likes anything.

But am I out of touch? It's not a critic's job to reflect box office taste. The job is to describe my reaction to a film, to account for it, and evoke it for others. The job of the reader is not to find his opinion applauded or seconded, but to evaluate another opinion against his own


It's true that many Americans have an active suspicion and dislike of the "educated." They ask, "what makes you an expert?" when they're really asking, "what gives you the right to disagree with me?" The term "college graduate" has become in some circles a negative. Hostility is especially focused on the "Eastern Elite," to the chagrin of we Midwestern Elitists. To describe someone as a "Harvard student" is to dismiss them as beneath consideration. You can often hear the words "so-called" in front of words like scientist, educator, philosopher. I don't believe this is intended to imply that the person involved is not a scientist, etc., but to suggest that no one calling himself such a thing is to be trusted--because he is no doubt many other undesirable things.

So let's focus on those who seriously believe "Transformers" is one of the year's best films. Are these people wrong? Yes. They are wrong. I am fond of the story I tell about Gene Siskel. When a so-called film critic defended a questionable review by saying, "after all, it's opinion," Gene told him: "There is a point when a personal opinion shades off into an error of fact. When you say 'The Valachi Papers' is a better film than 'The Godfather,' you are wrong." Quite true. We should respect differing opinions up to certain point, and then it's time for the wise to blow the whistle.


What I believe is that all clear-minded people should remain two things throughout their lifetimes: Curious and teachable. If someone I respect tells me I must take a closer look at the films of Abbas Kiarostami, I will take that seriously. If someone says the kung-fu movies of the 1970s, which I used for our old Dog of the Week segments, deserve serious consideration, I will listen. I will try to do what Pauline Kael said she did: Take everything you are, and all the films you've seen, into the theater. See the film, and decide if anything has changed. The older you are and the more films you've seen, the more you take into the theater. When I had been a film critic for ten minutes, I treated Doris Day as a target for cheap shots. I have learned enough to say today that the woman was remarkably gifted.

Those who think "Transformers" is a great or even a good film are, may I tactfully suggest, not sufficiently evolved. Film by film, I hope they climb a personal ladder into the realm of better films, until their standards improve. Those people contain multitudes. They deserve films that refresh the parts others do not reach. They don't need to spend a lifetime with the water only up to their toes.

good article and should go a long way in explaining why people are critical of T2 despite it being a "popcorn flick"

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/07/i_am_a_brainiac.html

 

[Asknoone]

Yes, excellent article - certainly Ebert quality, and it hits very close to the mark of those malignant seeds of anti-intellectualism. Truly, Transformers 2 is a testament to something odious. Shame on all involved.

When a reader wrote to inform me that Michel Bay paid $8 million to the writers of the screenplay, I very much doubted it. Turns out that figure is correct.

Dear lord.

 

[Warped]

every movie is different for every person. perspective can be a bit different depending on your age, sex, upbringing, etc. for my sake though i had transformers toys, games, movies, and some of the tv shows on tape. its going to effect me much differently than a man who gets paid to do reviews all day and watch movies. also i believe hes long been burned out.

 

[CptStern]

you really should read the article. it brings up the specific points you brought up

 

[Warped]

you really should read the article. it brings up the specific points you brought up

i read what was copied in this thread, thats good enough from me. i just still think going to a critic for every one of your movies is stupid, especially for someone who has been watching movies longer than I've been alive.

 

[<RJMC>]

every movie is different for every person. perspective can be a bit different depending on your age, sex, upbringing, etc. for my sake though i had transformers toys, games, movies, and some of the tv shows on tape. its going to effect me much differently than a man who gets paid to do reviews all day and watch movies. also i believe hes long been burned out.

them that means that people grew up whit batman must LOVE batman and robin

 

[Asknoone]

i read what was copied in this thread, thats good enough from me.

Then your prior statement has no ground; you chose to comment on elements that you had not read - you cannot expect to be able to refute what he is saying without first reading what he has to say. Ding-a-ling-a-ling, that's a dumb thing to do! Oh, you tragic case in point.

 

[Eejit]

every movie is different for every person. perspective can be a bit different depending on your age, sex, upbringing, etc. for my sake though i had transformers toys, games, movies, and some of the tv shows on tape. its going to effect me much differently than a man who gets paid to do reviews all day and watch movies. also i believe hes long been burned out.

Last time you said this I corrected you. Why do you repeat it?

Film critics don't spend all day watching movies for their job. There are usually 2-5 new releases to review per week. Most don't do the full amount, either they pick from that number or their publication reviews the full amount but split between different staff.

 

[Absinthe]

every movie is different for every person. perspective can be a bit different depending on your age, sex, upbringing, etc. for my sake though i had transformers toys, games, movies, and some of the tv shows on tape. its going to effect me much differently than a man who gets paid to do reviews all day and watch movies. also i believe hes long been burned out.

You are exactly what he's talking about.

"Ebert didn't like Bayformers? MAN HE MUST JUST BE EXHAUSTED FROM WATCHING MOVIES. HE JUST KNOWS TOO MUCH."

I know this is going to come off as hypocritical, but as much as I'm willing to indulge contrary opinions for the sake of personal preferences, there are films that are just unabashedly shit, and I don't think a one-trick pony (Michael Bay's ridiculous and explosive action sequences in this case) makes up for the total crap the rest of a film is mired in. I don't want to apply this directly to Transformers 2 since I haven't actually seen it yet (with no intention to), but Ebert's point still stands.

I watched the Punisher sequel not too long ago. I'll admit that there are some kicks to be had with its gore and violence, but does that make up for its boring dialogue, poor character development, and total lack of dramatic buildup? I really don't think so. It's a shit film, regardless of wether or not you walked into the theater just to watch heads get chopped off or blown up. On that same note, you are within every right to be entertained by confusing images of metal behemoths wrestling around onscreen, but that doesn't excuse every other facet of the film for being sloppy.

There's nothing to "get" in Bay's work. I shouldn't require a childhood immersed in a toy franchise to appreciate Transformers. I'm not misunderstanding the films' intentions or who it's trying to appeal to.
I'm just not going to settle down for excuses for crappy work when it's entirely feasible for a film to be made which hits all the right notes instead of just one.

Also, I thought this forum hated Ebert because of his opinions on video games.\

EDIT:

them that means that people grew up whit batman must LOVE batman and robin

RJMC has delivered the most potent ****ing post in this topic.

 

[Yorick]

I'm just not going to settle down for excuses for crappy work when it's entirely feasible for a film to be made which hits all the right notes instead of just one.

Exactly.

 

[Sheepo]

RJMC has delivered the most potent ****ing post in this topic.

I enjoy the hell out of Batman and Robin, but it's probably not the enjoyment that it was intended to give.

 

[Darkside55]

Michael Bay did a great good

Heh heh.

 

[Krynn72]

Heh heh.

Hah, that was a great good Darkside.



Its pointless to argue with people who liked Transformers 2 because our experiences with it were different. People who liked it generally liked transformers in their childhood, or perhaps they just really like the (supurb) CGI more than most people.

It is quite obvious to anyone who doesnt have such a preexisting condition that this movie is a piece of shit. But to those who do, its not a bad film at all, because they brought something of their own to the experience.

Its like if you went to a friends place because he was having a smores and alcohol party, but he wasnt providing any marshmallows or alcohol. Its obvious that its a shit smores and alcohol party because it doesnt have anything required to be such. And you, having neither smores or alcohol, will see that it sucks, while the guys who just so happened to bring marshmallows and booze will think it was a alright, if not good party.

 

[Darkside55]

People who liked it generally liked transformers in their childhood

It is quite obvious to anyone who doesnt have such a preexisting condition that this movie is a piece of shit

But I love Transformers with all my heart and I thought the movie was shit...

 

[Krynn72]

Then you are lying about one of those things.

 

[Darkside55]

No way, man. Generally Transformers fans are haters anyway. I just happened to love the first movie a lot, although most Geewunners would try and have my head for that.

 

[Krynn72]

I am assuming Geewunners is a term I would be familiar with if I liked transformers?

 

[Darkside55]

It's a slightly derogatory term for fans of Generation 1, the original transformers cartoon series. They like to hate on everything that isn't G1 (geewun), even though outside of the 1986 movie that show wasn't even that good.

Anyway, Bayformers 2 was shitty outside of the forest fight and the little bits of dialogue between Megatron and Starscream. And Simmons.

I blame there being a pretender in the movie. It was the curse of the pretender which killed Transformers in the 80s, and having a pretender in this movie made the whole thing suck. THEY ARE CURSED.

 

[Yorick]

I loved the cartoon and movie when I was a kid and thought these movies were total rubbish. The thing is, the show in the 80's made them to be more than just robots. They had personalities and depth. I mean, you know, as much as you can have in an 80's cartoon.

Transformers 1 had them stumbling around the backyard like morons, trampling the fountain and getting pissed on by a dog. They made a complete joke out of what could have very easily been an incredible movie. Megatron had like 3 lines in the movie, two of which were his goddamn name for Chrissakes. It was rubbish.

Its pointless to argue with people who liked Transformers 2 because our experiences with it were different. People who liked it generally liked transformers in their childhood, or perhaps they just really like the (supurb) CGI more than most people.

People who liked either of the Bay Transformers movies are either morons, or fanboys (who are just a different type of moron).

 

[Darkside55]

They had personalities and depth.

Noooooo they didn't. They were all one-dimensional characters. Even Frank Welker outright says that everyone in Transformers was completely one-dimensional. Megatron was evil. Starscream was a coward. Ultra Magnus was a loser. These were their personalities.

Occasionally you'd get those focus episodes trying to add depth to characters, but all of that would be erased by the next episode and you'd return to the status quo.

Megatron had like 3 lines in the movie, two of which were his goddamn name for Chrissakes. It was rubbish.

Dude. DUDE. Megatron had awesome lines in that movie.

"You still fight for the weak, that is why you lose!"

And at the LA premiere I cheered hella loud when he smashed free of the ice and declared, "I am Megatron!" I was like, "ALL HAIL MIGHTY MEGATRON!"

 

[Yorick]

Noooooo they didn't. They were all one-dimensional characters. Even Frank Welker outright says that everyone in Transformers was completely one-dimensional. Megatron was evil. Starscream was a coward. Ultra Magnus was a loser. These were their personalities.

Occasionally you'd get those focus episodes trying to add depth to characters, but all of that would be erased by the next episode and you'd return to the status quo.

Fair enough, but that's still a lot more than was put into the movie incarnations of them.

And at the LA premiere I cheered hella loud when he smashed free of the ice and declared, "I am Megatron!" I was like, "ALL HAIL MIGHTY MEGATRON!"

You should probably be locked in a basement somewhere.

 

[Sheepo]

But those are awesome lines.

 

[Darkside55]

Actually...if you think about it, the movie versions of them either have just as much or more depth than their cartoon versions. I mean there's not much difference from "BURHT PRAHME, let's bust some Decepticreeps!" 1980s Ironhide to "Lemme show them my cannons!" Michael Bay Ironhide.

I did kind of miss the fact Starscream in RotF was just an outright coward rather than a conniving one (especially since he had been in the first movie, being the first jet to fire on Megatron), and that Megatron also cowed to the Fallen. I guess that's kind of stripping down their characters.

But hey, Bumblebee has a whole lot more character in the Bay movies than he did in the cartoon. Remember Bee from the cartoon? Bumblebee SUCKED. At least now he's kinda got a bit of Hot Rod's personality.

The only time the Transformers ever had actual character depth and development was in the comics, Beast Wars, and Armada.





Also you know you loved it when Megatron broke free, don't lie. That was amazing.

 

[Eejit]

But those are awesome lines.

They really aren't. They're lines some sugar-overdosed 12 year old fanboy would come up with as being cool.

 

[Darkside55]

They're lines some sugar-overdosed 12 year old fanboy would come up with as being cool.

Imagine you were a great leader of a technologically superior race. You crashland on some backwoods planet and they freeze you, dissect you, reverse engineer all the technology you brought, and they keep you in cryostasis continually calling you the wrong name. Repeatedly. For one hundred or so years. Day in, day out. All these creatures walking around, poking at you, examining you with probes and charts and diagnostic tools, calling you the wrong thing over and over for one hundred years and all you can do is listen.

Tell me the first words that YOU say when you finally break free wouldn't be, "MY NAME IS _____!"

 

[Eejit]

Does it being mandatory and inevitable help make it an "awesome line"?

Also if I were in such a situation I'd try to think of something more original to say.

 

[Asknoone]

Dude. DUDE. Megatron had awesome lines in that movie.

"You still fight for the weak, that is why you lose!"

Do we actually need to think about this one.

 

[Raziaar]

I've always liked ebert. I used to go to his site to read reviews, and then went to chicagosuntimes to read his reviews.

 

[Darkside55]

Does it being mandatory and inevitable help make it an "awesome line"?

It is if your name is MEGATRON.

Don't tell me if your name was Megatron you wouldn't go around introducing yourself to everyone on the street, or just throwing your name out there in conversations.


"So the other day I was hanging out with Steve, and we went to--"
"Megatron."
"What?"
"It's my name. MEGATRON."

 

[CptStern]

It is quite obvious to anyone who doesnt have such a preexisting condition that this movie is a piece of shit.

lol at suggestion that T2 fans hae an affliction and or mental disease (even though it's overt) :thumbs:

I've always liked ebert. I used to go to his site to read reviews, and then went to chicagosuntimes to read his reviews.

me too. I didnt jump on the hate ebert bandwagon back when he said games are not art ...because I agree with him

 

[Sheepo]

They really aren't. They're lines some sugar-overdosed 12 year old fanboy would come up with as being cool.

I am not sugar-overdosed, thank you very much.

 

[CptStern]

....but you're a 12 year old fanboy nonetheless? I would have thought the sugar overdosed part was the least offensive thing in that statement

 

[Sheepo]

I would have thought the fact that it was a joke was obvious.

 

[CptStern]

I havent had my sugar overdose for the day so I'm lethargic. that joke went right over my head

 

[Sheepo]

Well I'm glad to see your ability to put things in italics has returned.

 

[CptStern]

ah, I see you've discovered sarcasm

 

[Sheepo]

Not really, what is that?

 

[Kamikazie]

Glad to see you're both 12.

 

[CptStern]

can I just kill you both and be done with it?

 

[Sheepo]

You have to level up first.