The annoyance of Hand-Waving

[HunterSeeker]

Warning, this is kinda rantish. I have over the last year or so developed a great annoyance with handwaving (not refering to actual waving of hands), ignoring logic. Note that this is not a thread about religion.

This is something that runs rampant in primarly science-fiction and fantasy and needs to die. An example of handwaving in fantasy that is extremly common is to make it easy to master magic and create magical items and permanent magical effects and not have society change in the way it logically should. Lets say that magic is so easy to learn that anyone can learn it, even if not mastering it. Why dosent peasants use it to increase their crop yeild dramatically? Of cource this does not apply to any fantasy world, but hand-waving particullary in regards to magic is painfully common.

The worst part is that you rarely need to handwave to get the effects you want but do it anyway.

 

[Krynn72]

WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!!?


srsly

 

[theotherguy]

I agree, but the point of it in fiction is to explain away things that are impossible in the first place

Fiction writers have a very specific story they have to tell, and if their setting is illogical then they must simply hand-wave it all away to make the story work, or else they have a completley different story.Magic is impossible. If it were possible it would change everything, yes, but an author who wants to tell the story of a daring mideval hero does not want to waste time on exposition explaining the effects of magic.

Would this make the story more interesting? Possibly. But it would not advance the means of the author to tell his story, and would probably come off as needless exposition, and from that point, a boring story.

I know exactley what you mean, and it ticks me off too, but unfortunatley hand-waving is an integral part of sci-fi and fantasy and is one of the many reasons neither of those genres are considered real literature.

 

[HunterSeeker]

WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?!?!!?


srsly

Sorry I might have been a bit unclear, likely becouse their might be some blood in my caffeincirculation.

Hand-waving is ignoring logical consequences, not taking into account how a society might change if a specific technological gadget is introduced into it. Completly ignoring the logical consequences if an event, if you write about a story where television suddenly ceases to work and completly ignoring how society might change becouse of it is an example of handwaving. Am I still unclear?

 

[bam23]

lolwut

 

[HunterSeeker]

I agree, but the point of it in fiction is to explain away things that are impossible in the first place

Fiction writers have a very specific story they have to tell, and if their setting is illogical then they must simply hand-wave it all away to make the story work, or else they have a completley different story.Magic is impossible. If it were possible it would change everything, yes, but an author who wants to tell the story of a daring mideval hero does not want to waste time on exposition explaining the effects of magic.

Would this make the story more interesting? Possibly. But it would not advance the means of the author to tell his story, and would probably come off as needless exposition, and from that point, a boring story.

I know exactley what you mean, and it ticks me off too, but unfortunatley hand-waving is an integral part of sci-fi and fantasy and is one of the many reasons neither of those genres are considered real literature.

Actually, the most annying thing about it is that handwaving is rarely needed to get what you want. I have yet seen a single example of a handwave that is nessacery. Magic? Its just that this world has differnet laws of physics. Society not changed by magic? Its becouse there are too few individuals that can master it to make a fundamental inpact and even those that have mastered it have great problems making permanent effects or the effects they can create are extremly limited in varity. A single paragraph that explains it in broad terms is usually enough, sometimes just a line or two. This is the main source of my annoyance, handwaving is extremly rarly nessacery.

 

[Krynn72]

What the hell you are you two on about?

Hand waving as in waving "hi" to someone? Or casting spells by moving your hands?

Because "casting magic" is retarded no matter what way you look at it, because its all fcuking make believe.

 

[Smoke]

I agree, but the point of it in fiction is to explain away things that are impossible in the first place

Fiction writers have a very specific story they have to tell, and if their setting is illogical then they must simply hand-wave it all away to make the story work, or else they have a completley different story.Magic is impossible. If it were possible it would change everything, yes, but an author who wants to tell the story of a daring mideval hero does not want to waste time on exposition explaining the effects of magic.

Would this make the story more interesting? Possibly. But it would not advance the means of the author to tell his story, and would probably come off as needless exposition, and from that point, a boring story.

I know exactley what you mean, and it ticks me off too, but unfortunatley hand-waving is an integral part of sci-fi and fantasy and is one of the many reasons neither of those genres are considered real literature.

Depends on how you tell the story, read Discworld.

 

[StardogChampion]

Technically they shouldn't have to explain anything to you. They've created this world in their head, and that's just the way it is.

You just have to suspend your disbelief and accept it. It would also be annoying if they kept explaining every little thing after they introduce it.

 

[Rapstah]

The annoyance of Hand-W******

Fixed.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Technically they shouldn't have to explain anything to you. They've created this world in their head, and that's just the way it is.

You just have to suspend your disbelief and accept it. It would also be annoying if they kept explaining every little thing after they introduce it.

True, and its not every little thing I am bothered about. Instead its the giant gaping logical holes that I hate to see.

 

[Baal]

What the hell you are you two on about?

Hand waving as in waving "hi" to someone? Or casting spells by moving your hands?

Because "casting magic" is retarded no matter what way you look at it, because its all fcuking make believe.

I think this "hand-waving" they're refering to is the act of ignoring facts.

At least...I think it is... :|

For example, lets say you're writing a story about a boy who turns radioactive and aquires super-powers. These super-powers are aquired through the drinking of Nuclear Waste.

The fact that it would kill him has been "hand-waved"

Is this it guys? I'm really not sure anymore

edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_waving#Literary_criticism

uhhh...yea, I still don't know if I'm right or wrong :O

 

[Sulkdodds]

I thought fantasy was very often about the effect of magic on society in that it creates a new, thaumocratic power elite. It distorts the power structure.

 

[HunterSeeker]

I think this "hand-waving" they're refering to is the act of ignoring facts.

At least...I think it is... :|

For example, lets say you're writing a story about a boy who turns radioactive and aquires super-powers. These super-powers are aquired through the drinking of Nuclear Waste.

The fact that it would kill him has been "hand-waved"

Is this it guys? I'm really not sure anymore

Partly correct, this thing can be explained easily though. This is just how the laws of physics work in this world. Its as easy as that.

A better (IMO) example of handwaving is the sciencefiction story that has true working and advanced A.I. yet they only put it in humanoid bodies. Where are the intelligent cars and houses that service the people? Its completly ok to not have those things but one should still try to explain why those things are not there.

 

[ríomhaire]

You might like the Age of The Five series. It's set in a world where everything can use magic (Though most people aren't very "Gifted", maybe just enough to heat water). At one points a character remarks on unusual a certain animal species is because they display no obvious signs of using magic. Even the plants use magic.

 

[Que-Ever]

What, do you think you're some kind of a jedi, waving your hand around like that?

 

[The Brick]

You will excuse me, this is not the thread I was looking for. *waves hand*

 

[Tyguy]

WHAT THE F*#^ are you talking about!?!?

 

[Beerdude26]

Luminous condoms for sale \/, includes "woosh" sound

 

[Que-Ever]

Luminous condoms for sale \/, includes "woosh" sound

You'll finally be able to see it.

 

[Dan]

wow, you are a loser

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

I thought fantasy was very often about the effect of magic on society in that it creates a new, thaumocratic power elite. It distorts the power structure.

I think this is the most interesting way to discuss 'magic'. I was always fascinated by stories involving an elite few with powers beyond the rest, i.e. Mutants in X-men or magic users in Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings. When you read or involve yourself in the narrative of these stories you (almost always) connect with the magic user. It's fun to feel special.. when I was younger I used to wave my hand around hoping that I could shoot fire or draw something to me, like using the force or something.

I don't know where this is going.

wow, you are a loser

YOU need to get the **** off my forum

 

[Dan]

YOU need to get the **** off my forum

It was my forum first, you leave, wave your hands while you go

 

[Marinmald]

Partly correct, this thing can be explained easily though. This is just how the laws of physics work in this world. Its as easy as that.

A better (IMO) example of handwaving is the sciencefiction story that has true working and advanced A.I. yet they only put it in humanoid bodies. Where are the intelligent cars and houses that service the people? Its completly ok to not have those things but one should still try to explain why those things are not there.

not a big enough demand? or lack of fundage by the common folk to have such luxuries? there were a couple horible accidents involving children and automated houses so they were outlawed/banned? menus are overly complicated? not enough cowbell?

 

[Operational]

Don't like handwaving or technobabble, its one of the reasons my two favourite sci-fi series are Farscape and Battlestar Galactica both of which keep handwaving and technobabble to a minimum. However it can be used well, in Stargate SG-1 for example it is mostly used to setup a story, the plot of which doesn't rely on handwaving or technobabble.
But it can be poorly used too, the overuse of handwaving and technobabble is one of my biggest criticisms of Star Trek but what do you expect with a guy in charge who says this

I've always tried to approach the show is by coming up with a wacky idea. Let's just say, for instance, that the ship gets caught in a repeating loop of time. It's preposterous, it could never happen in the world that we know. But if you make it sound good, using the term 'causality loop,' and throw some interesting terms in that seem to reinforce the idea and support it, suddenly it becomes a little more scientific.

If we couldn't figure out how is the crew going to get out of this particular situation, sometimes we would just use technobabble to get them out and, still do, to some degree

Contrasted with Ron Moore

A deeper truth is, I was never interested in coming up with an explanation for Why? Never. I mean, I suppose I could've come up with a sufficiently important-sounding bit of technobabble that would've made sense (you see, the Cylon double-talk sensors tracking the Olympic Carrier's nonsense drive signature needed 15 minutes to relay the made-up data wave through the pretend continuum, then the Cylon navigational hyper silly system needed another 10 minutes to recalculate the flux capacitor, etc.) but what would that have really added to the drama? How does explaining that 33 minute interval help our understanding of Laura's terrible moment of decision, or bring us to any greater knowledge of Dualla's search for her missing family and friends, or yield insight into Baltar's morally shattered psyche?

I know which philosophy I prefer.

 

[Sidewinder]

lolwut

.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

wow, you are a loser

Hahaha


Yeah honestly if you can't enjoy stories and get annoyed because everything fictitious wasn't THOROUGHLY EXPLAINED then you're probably a pain in the ass and no fun to be around.

 

[Uriel]

whoooooooooooooooooooooo Cares?!

 

[Jintor]

Shhh or I'll relate technobabble to religion via some sort of insane causality spike!

 

[Baal]

whoooooooooooooooooooooo Cares?!

Exactly

At first this thread was fun because I enjoyed trying to figure out exactly what the hell it was that you were talking about.

Now it's just... :dozey:

 

[Xendance]

Locked.

Oh wait, I can't do that. =[

 

[ríomhaire]

This is a perfectly reasonable thread about literary devices. I bet if someone made a thread on Deus Ex Machina people won't bitch about it and spam it as much.

 

[Jintor]

Yeah, you morons. Shut up and let the lit. dudes talk.

So, as far as I can tell, it's jumping ahead to the end without doing the neccessary steps in-between and working out their consequences?

 

[Smoke]

wow, you are a loser

Most losers can use ****ing grammar.

 

[15357]

I agree with the OP.



That reminds me though. I wanna read a fantasy in which magic is illegal (for the obvious reasons of social consequences) and violators are executed by firing squad. Or a tank.

 

[Operational]

I wanna read a fantasy in which magic is illegal (for the obvious reasons of social consequences) and violators are executed by firing squad. Or a tank.

lol, that would be different.

 

[HunterSeeker]

I agree with the OP.



That reminds me though. I wanna read a fantasy in which magic is illegal (for the obvious reasons of social consequences) and violators are executed by firing squad. Or a tank.

I read something like that, the executaion method was different though. It was not fantasy, lets see I think it was called History.

Seriusly, I have read a book where magic was illegal in part of the world. Cant for the life of me remember what it was called though.'

So, as far as I can tell, it's jumping ahead to the end without doing the neccessary steps in-between and working out their consequences?

Thats pretty much handwaving in a nutshell.

 

[Capt Midnight]

I like to go to crowded malls with friends and pretend to wave at people and when they wave back, walk over to my friend standing right behind them. I've never actually done that but it would be tight.

 

[CyberPitz]

This thread couldn't confuse me more, even if it had a picture of BINGO hanging upside down on an asteroid flying through a sea of trees with the snakes doing jumpingjacks like their teeth are made from silver!

 

[DreamThrall]

From the wikipedia article linked earlier in this thread, for those of you too lazy to click and/or too dense to pick up on the fact that the OP is not talking about literally waving your hands around:

The term handwaving is used in mathematics and physics to describe arguments that are not mathematically rigorous.
...
By extension, handwaving is used in speculative fiction criticism to refer to a plot device (e.g. a scientific discovery, a political development, or rules governing the behavior of a fictional creature) that is left unexplained or sloppily explained because it is convenient to the story, with the implication that the writer is aware of the logical weakness but hopes the reader will not notice or will suspend disbelief.

Though, the OP COULD HAVE provided a little more explanation since we're aren't all bloody literature or english majors.