The end of human civilization

[jverne]

Why don't you describe your Utopia using discrete statements so we can just rip it up the one time instead of ripping up what you say and then you changing it to something else.

WHAT THE **** DUDE?!?

That was a response to sulk who asked me

What do you mean by 'destruction'?

How did you understand that as being my wish, is beyond me.

 

[Dan]

yeah, and you said that would be what you prefer

 

[jverne]

yeah, and you said that would be what you prefer

To be honest i'd much rather live in this world than a technological dystopia like brave new world, Blade runner, equilibrium,...

have you seen equilibrium, brave new world,...


I said i'd rather lived in the postapocalyptic one than the dystopia like the ones mentioned.

You guys don't read posts, do you?

 

[jverne]

I've put up a disclaimer for people to read before making false claims.

Seriously guys that's not cool.


If you wish to continue the debate please do, but i don't want defending myself for something i never said.
I think the issue that no limit mentioned is quite interesting, can we have a smaller impact and still preserve positive progress. Or willing to sacrifice some luxuries for preserving nature,..

 

[Eejit]

Yes if you're dumb and not really read what i write and just throw out preconceived ideas you think i made.

**** that pisses me off. Some of you guys here are like this:

Person A: Hey, i wonder how would living in space feel like?
You: WHAT, YOU WANT TO LIVE ON THE SURFACE OF THE SUN!!!!???? YOU STUPID IDIOT, DON'T YOU KNOW ITS EXTREMELY HOT THERE, AND IT'S VERY FAR!!!!!

The thread topic itself is dumb. "Hey you guuuuuyyyyysss would you like civilization to end resulting in the death of billions, probably including you or your loved ones, untold suffering for the survivors and the end to all your comforts? If not, WHY NOT?!"

[disclaimer - exaggerated for effect]

 

[jverne]

The thread topic itself is dumb. "Hey you guuuuuyyyyysss would you like civilization to end resulting in the death of billions, probably including you or your loved ones, untold suffering for the survivors and the end to all your comforts? If not, WHY NOT?!"

[disclaimer - exaggerated for effect]

Hey it's just a theoretical debate, it's not like anybody want's to go out and cause the nuclear holocaust, not anyone that i know of that is. Ok maybe, numbers is flirting with it j/k



I admit, i'd like to see it, but only maybe for a few days. Just to feel the massive emptiness once 70% of the population is gone. But after that, get me the **** out. I really have no intention to run from assless leather pants cannibals

 

[Eejit]

... I understand that, I'm saying it's a silly theoretical debate. Anyone halfway sane is going to give the same answer.

 

[jverne]

... I understand that, I'm saying it's a silly theoretical debate. Anyone halfway sane is going to give the same answer.

I just edited my post read if you haven't.

Just like alot of people would like to see the zombie apocalypse take place, they probably wouldn't like to live in it.

 

[Eejit]

Yeah and those people are frakkin retarded too.

 

[No Limit]

I don't agree with you completely.

I think we can live more modestly and still have a decent progress rate. Sure some sacrifices i'm willing to make. I can live with less luxury than i have and even now i don't have too much of it.
I won't go into details but i guess you know where we can conserve.
You don't have to drain all the water, have massive stores that probably never even sell all their stuff on their shelves, destroy farmland, burn that much fossil fuel and exploit that much people to have the internet.

Can we have less of an impact? Sure, it won't require the destruction of society to do that.

But if you want the things you have now we will have to continue to burn fossil fuels in one way or another, we will continue to destroy our land, and we will continue to have to exploit people if you want you technology. Do you have any idea how much the computer you are working on would cost if it wasn't made in some shitty part of the world? The majority of people wouldn't be able to afford a personal computer.

 

[jverne]

Can we have less of an impact? Sure, it won't require the destruction of society to do that.

But if you want the things you have now we will have to continue to burn fossil fuels in one way or another, we will continue to destroy our land, and we will continue to have to exploit people if you want you technology. Do you have any idea how much the computer you are working on would cost if it wasn't made in some shitty part of the world? The majority of people wouldn't be able to afford a personal computer.

Yes if your computer is meant for gaming and you have to buy every 6 months a new CPU, graphics card,... and do that extremely cheaply. Then you're almost right, we have to **** everything up.
Why did i said almost? The factory cost of any product in normally lower than the actual cost you buy it at stores where each dealer adds some percentage.
If i'm not mistaken...a regular small car like a Volkswagen polo costs to produce "only" 4000 thousand euros. So i've heard, don't quote me on it because i don't have actual data. It sells for about 10000 EU if i'm not mistaken.

Maybe if people would switch to less wasteful means of entertainment, transportation, food,... then we could reduce our footprint.

 

[L3N!N]

Nope.

 

[Absinthe]

Which nine of you voted yes.

 

[No Limit]

Yes if your computer is meant for gaming and you have to buy every 6 months a new CPU, graphics card,... and do that extremely cheaply. Then you're almost right, we have to **** everything up.
Why did i said almost? The factory cost of any product in normally lower than the actual cost you buy it at stores where each dealer adds some percentage.

Well I'm glad I'm almost right.

 

[jverne]

Which nine of you voted yes.

I voted yes. But i wouldn't like to live in it permanently, just a quick tour would be enough.


However it's really interesting how today people can live unconnected willingly. I saw a movie once called "the last trapper" it was an actual hunter/park ranger that lived mostly out of main society.
Not saying it is great, but certainly fascinating.

I think it would be actually great if we had modern cities interconnected with the local flora and fauna.

Impossible? I think the technology is here, the will is not.

 

[jverne]

Well I'm glad I'm almost right.

I don't think the issue is whether your right or not, but if you like it or not?

 

[Dan]

I think that is the dumbest city idea ever. Planned shit never works as planned. You know what happens when you put trees on top of a skyscraper? The wind blows the trees over and they fall and kill people on the sidewalks. The extra weight of soil means that you need to reinforce all of your roofs with huge I-beams. The roots get into your concrete and crack it up. The dirt holds water long after it rains and lets it seep through those cracks. Everything has to be hauled up there. It is a huge mess all so that some rich boy can look at green stuff instead of grey shit like everyone else. If you want trees move to the country.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

...sooo, you want modern day cities to have more hedges and bigger parks? And also to witness the end of the world, for some ****ed-up reason?

 

[The Monkey]

Half the ****ing population would have to be employed as gardeners.

 

[PvtRyan]

I think that is the dumbest city idea ever. Planned shit never works as planned. You know what happens when you put trees on top of a skyscraper? The wind blows the trees over and they fall and kill people on the sidewalks. The extra weight of soil means that you need to reinforce all of your roofs with huge I-beams. The roots get into your concrete and crack it up. The dirt holds water long after it rains and lets it seep through those cracks. Everything has to be hauled up there. It is a huge mess all so that some rich boy can look at green stuff instead of grey shit like everyone else. If you want trees move to the country.

All of those concerns are trivially solved. I'm not sure if you're being facetious but there's a lot to say for living in a greener city.

 

[jverne]

I think that is the dumbest city idea ever. Planned shit never works as planned. You know what happens when you put trees on top of a skyscraper? The wind blows the trees over and they fall and kill people on the sidewalks. The extra weight of soil means that you need to reinforce all of your roofs with huge I-beams. The roots get into your concrete and crack it up. The dirt holds water long after it rains and lets it seep through those cracks. Everything has to be hauled up there. It is a huge mess all so that some rich boy can look at green stuff instead of grey shit like everyone else. If you want trees move to the country.

Ok i agree, the green part on city buildings are overkill. I just googled and took the first pictures.
But more passive houses should be built, more greenery outdoor, specialized public transport, bike paths,...
Stuff that matter. Having a tree on top of while the whole building leaks heat is not really efficient.
As for aesthetics, a more organic architecture.

this sucks

this is better (disregard the plants on top)

Sure it might not be as cost effective, but that's what the whole problem is about. People are not prepared to pay more, the technology is already here.

 

[Shakermaker]

One word: Milliways.

 

[Maestro]

Yes.

Though I doubt we'd see such widespread destruction that there's a reversion back to the pre-industrial. Unless somehow every engineer, scientist, doctor, car, factory, and modern electronics somehow was destroyed.

Given some catastrophic event, say a massive plague: there would be a Mad Max period of about 6 months, followed by a full and complete die-off within 6 to 18 months as food supplies gave out, followed thereafter by a period of brisk advancement as factories and houses are reoccupied.

Seriously, barring a nuclear war (not going to happen), asteroid strike (give it 20 years and that will be a nonthreat), or titanic plague that eliminates a majority of the human population (3-4 billion people dead? not going to happen), or a total and complete worldwide revolution (not going to happen), there isn't a prayer for modern society to collapse. Unless there's an alien or zombie invasion.

Then we're ****ed.

 

[jverne]

Yes.

Though I doubt we'd see such widespread destruction that there's a reversion back to the pre-industrial. Unless somehow every engineer, scientist, doctor, car, factory, and modern electronics somehow was destroyed.

Given some catastrophic event, say a massive plague: there would be a Mad Max period of about 6 months, followed by a full and complete die-off within 6 to 18 months as food supplies gave out, followed thereafter by a period of brisk advancement as factories and houses are reoccupied.

Seriously, barring a nuclear war (not going to happen), asteroid strike (give it 20 years and that will be a nonthreat), or titanic plague that eliminates a majority of the human population (3-4 billion people dead? not going to happen), or a total and complete worldwide revolution (not going to happen), there isn't a prayer for modern society to collapse. Unless there's an alien or zombie invasion.

Then we're ****ed.

What about people who only care for their short term personal enjoyment without any regard to the consequences of their actions?

 

[Eejit]

Seriously, barring a nuclear war (not going to happen), asteroid strike (give it 20 years and that will be a nonthreat), or titanic plague that eliminates a majority of the human population (3-4 billion people dead? not going to happen), or a total and complete worldwide revolution (not going to happen), there isn't a prayer for modern society to collapse. Unless there's an alien or zombie invasion.

Then we're ****ed.

Malthusian pressures while oil production starts to plummet. Real threat there.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Jvern, Singapore is billed as the city in a garden. You should move there. They have tried to turn the city green in the way most cities are gentrificated.
Just say goodbye to having any sort of freedom like chewing gum.

 

[jverne]

Jvern, Singapore is billed as the city in a garden. You should move there. They have tried to turn the city green in the way most cities are gentrificated.
Just say goodbye to having any sort of freedom like chewing gum.

Why do you presume i want to live there?

To be honest i hate chewing gum...well not exactly the product itself, but people who throw it away without any regard that someone might step on it or mess up his clothing,...

 

[Dan]

Why do you presume i want to live there?

To be honest i hate chewing gum...well not exactly the product itself, but people who throw it away without any regard that someone might step on it or mess up his clothing,...

I don't think I want you in my utopia.

In my utopia people do what they want and direct their own lives. Government doesn't enforce nanny policies from above, but shapes societal values that build citizen's with character and intelligence.

Education is at the top of the budget. And instead of putting kids into stupid factories with incompetent educators, education is actually the number one priority and geared towards building well rounded individuals. Knowledge is not crammed down their throats. Instead, practical skills like problem solving, creativity are developed with real experience. Physical activity and actually challenging situations are part of this education.

Developing community is the second priority. Outside of the family unit, every city is divided into neighbourhood units which act as a lower level of government within government. They handle day to day stuff, and organize shared transportation, and help with tasks that are beyond the scope of a single individual or family.

The city is the limit of this structure. Beyond a certain density, people can organize themselves out in the country however they like without stepping on toes.

The individual builds the society, and the society builds the individual. Free market capitalism is allowed to flourish.

 

[No Limit]

jverne I think the problem is you need to stop posting the instant something pops in to your head. Give it a few minutes to marinate and then see how you feel about it.

 

[Ennui]

Oh... wow. This thread made me retch a little bit every 5-6 posts.

I pretty much agree with Dan. In terms of reforming modern civilization/society/culture, which will be an excruciatingly long and in all probability an ultimately futile endeavor, education is really all that matters. If you want to live in some kind of semi-utopian balanced, communal society that lives in harmony with the Earth and whatnot, you're going to need everyone to agree on doing so first - which requires that everyone has the sufficient knowledge and understanding capability to be able to see why this is both desirable and possible. You have to educate pretty much everybody first, and well - not like modern schools or standardized education.

After that, yes, community is a good focus, but ultimately all that matters is people's collective willingness to sacrifice a certain amount of pleasures/amenities/indulgences in order to further a just, healthy society (the opposite of ours today) and in pursuit of a fulfilling life, that being one which doesn't intrinsically cause massive conflict with nature/each other/ourselves etc.

 

[Dr.Demento]

Maybe so. That's probably not a good reason to want the collapse of civilization though overall.

...but listening to thousands of voices screaming in unison upon their imminent demise, just as that meteor plummets to the Earth, and just for that short time while they realize their own mortality and shortcomings would be worth it, right?

EDIT> Hooray, my first post.

 

[Seppo]

relax people, no need to be so aggressive.

 

[jverne]

I don't think I want you in my utopia.

In my utopia people do what they want and direct their own lives. Government doesn't enforce nanny policies from above, but shapes societal values that build citizen's with character and intelligence.

Education is at the top of the budget. And instead of putting kids into stupid factories with incompetent educators, education is actually the number one priority and geared towards building well rounded individuals. Knowledge is not crammed down their throats. Instead, practical skills like problem solving, creativity are developed with real experience. Physical activity and actually challenging situations are part of this education.

Developing community is the second priority. Outside of the family unit, every city is divided into neighbourhood units which act as a lower level of government within government. They handle day to day stuff, and organize shared transportation, and help with tasks that are beyond the scope of a single individual or family.

The city is the limit of this structure. Beyond a certain density, people can organize themselves out in the country however they like without stepping on toes.

The individual builds the society, and the society builds the individual. Free market capitalism is allowed to flourish.

Why do i get the feeling you're way much hostile than i am. I might hate somebody for doing something but that doesn't mean i'll kill him or harm him in anyway. I keep things civil, maybe on the internet doesn't sound like that, but you have to trust me on that.

Well what do you know, i have pretty much the same views as you do.

But i hope you realize the gaping holes in your utopia. For one, free market capitalism...how great that turned out to be once a greedy man comes into power.
Ok i get it it's presumably an utopia.

 

[flamingdts]

I don't think reforming a civilization is even partially a good idea.

If it's one thing humanity learnt from history, it's that we NEVER learn from history. Past mistakes will arise again and again and again and again simply because we are a human being.

 

[Dan]

I just got back from seeing Avatar and now I see the source of all these "humans suck, nature is good" threads.

 

[jverne]

I haven't seen that movie yet, i'm planning to go see it the last day. It's been airing for almost a month now.

 

[Dan]

Whoever said that it is 3d space Pocahontas pretty much summed it up. The plot and the details don't really make a whole lot of sense if you stop and think about it, but the world is immersive enough that you kind of forget about that. The visuals are pretty sweet though.

 

[jverne]

Yeah i'm pretty much going to see it for the visuals. Since i never seen a movie in 3D.

 

[Azner]

(edited at...the hour that says bellow 9pm or something)

You do know everyone gets their post under different times do you?

 

[jverne]

You do know everyone gets their post under different times do you?

:|

Of all the things


Yeah i admit, it didn't cross my mind. But it can be calculated to accommodate different time zones.