The US taking a different stance with Israel

[Warped]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfumokTOtDs

This is actually a nice sight to see, and Israel really ****ed up the last 40 years or so. I think they have grabbed enough land as it is from the smaller states within Israel and the latest occupation of Palestine was in the media far too much for people to turn their face away from. It seems Obama wants to take a different direction with Israel, and it seems like a proper choice for the time being.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

About ****ing time.

 

[Raziaar]

OMG Al-Jazeera!

TERRORISTS!

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Good.

 

[xdrive]

lol israel land grabbing? have you ever thought israel is just taking back what is theres, im pretty sure where israel is now and where palastine is now, that land thousands of years ago was called the land of israel and the people who lived there were called Israelites.

 

[Eejit]

lol israel land grabbing? have you ever thought israel is just taking back what is theres, im pretty sure where israel is now and where palastine is now, that land thousands of years ago was called the land of israel and the people who lived there were called Israelites.

Yeah, so distant ancestors of one people have a better claim than people still living who owned the land before it was stolen?

Hey Brits, Frenchies, give England and France back to the Celts!

Oh what's that, you're in Australia? Hey sorry Melbourne belongs to the Abos gtfo and live in a camp somewhere.

 

[Kadayi]

Oh what's that, you're in Australia? Hey sorry Sydney belongs to the Abos gtfo and live in a camp somewhere.

This a 1000 times over. :dozey:

 

[VirusType2]

So you think the Native Indians should get USA back as well?

Americans will just have to move back to England!

 

[Eejit]

Damnit I just said England is for the Celts! They'll have to move back to Scandinavia I think.

 

[G(ordon)-man]

Estonia is for the catalans that lived here 4000 years ago!!

 

[VirusType2]

Look, I know there are a ton of reasons to support either side. In fact, I haven't even chosen a stance, because I don't know enough to make that decision.

But, if Israelis currently have the land, then it's theirs, and is their right. They obtained it as spoils of war, it is their home now.

The Israelis will stand and fight, and if anyone tries to take the homeland from our friends and allies, then we should stand beside them, as they would do for us. That is what makes us allies, and that is what makes us strong.

They will stay in Israel. If not, there is nowhere else for them to go except on to Valhalla!

 

[MiccyNarc]

lol israel land grabbing? have you ever thought israel is just taking back what is theres, im pretty sure where israel is now and where palastine is now, that land thousands of years ago was called the land of israel and the people who lived there were called Israelites.

I'm revoking your right to speak. About anything.

 

[Kadayi]

But, if Israelis currently have the land, then it's theirs, and is their right. They obtained it as spoils of war, it is their home now.

Their right? Spoils of war? What next? Should they castrate the Arab Males and rape their women? **** off back to the stone age already and leave the 21st Century to people who aren't bound by ethnic hangups :dozey:

Lets not forget that, that 'war' was actually a pre-emptive war instigated by Israel as well. :dozey:

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Damnit I just said England is for the Celts! They'll have to move back to Scandinavia I think.

We'll all have to move back to Africa in the end. Then we can do some kind of lottery maybe?

 

[Eejit]

We'll all have to move back to Africa in the end. Then we can do some kind of lottery maybe?

Don't be silly, that means they'd have to leave Israel. No, just resetting things back to pre-diaspora is the only solution that makes sense.

 

[VirusType2]

leave the 21st Century to people who aren't bound by ethnic hangups

Yes, I'm with you on that, but what does this have to do with anything that was said, or on topic?

Lets not forget that, that 'war' was actually a pre-emptive war instigated by Israel as well.

So was the colonization of America. You know? It's over. It's theirs now, so deal with it, or let the Palestinians try to take it back. They aren't going to give up their home. Period

 

[Eejit]

So was the colonization of America. You know? It's over.

So you're saying that the colonisation and confiscation of lands based on 'might makes right' is morally acceptable today because that's what happened in the past?

 

[VirusType2]

So you're saying that the colonisation and confiscation of lands based on 'might makes right' is morally acceptable today because that's what happened in the past?

Of course not, and, it is in the past. (Meaning with the foundation of the state of Israel)

What do you guys suggest for Israel?

 

[nurizeko]

Hey Brits, Frenchies, give England and France back to the Celts! .

Wo0t!. \o/

Damnit I just said England is for the Celts! They'll have to move back to Scandinavia I think.

Denmark, Germany, that sorta area.

Lets not forget that, that 'war' was actually a pre-emptive war instigated by Israel as well.

Kadayi has a point, the 'raeli's started it with terror attacks on the Palastinians.

Granted the Arabs have long since made up for that but yeah, its clear Israel needs to lay off the whole fascist thing.

 

[Dan]

We should all return to the oceans from which life evolved and leave the land surface in its natural barren state.

 

[Some_God]

Good thing that you guys are just a minority of the human population. I couldn't imagine living in a spineless, politically correct, holier than thou world you guys reside in.

"We are all African, tee hee!"

 

[Kadayi]

Yes, I'm with you on that, but what does this have to do with anything that was said, or on topic?

I don't think your with me on anything tbh, not even this planet. For a man claiming to 'not to have taken a stance', you sure seem definitive about Israels right to ethnically cleanse the occupied territories. :dozey:

So was the colonization of America. You know? It's over. It's theirs now, so deal with it, or let the Palestinians try to take it back. They aren't going to give up their home. Period

So your saying the colonisation of America was a pre-emptive strike? Seriously get an education and then come back and discuss politics :dozey:

Kadayi has a point, the 'raeli's started it with terror attacks on the Palastinians.

Granted the Arabs have long since made up for that but yeah, its clear Israel needs to lay off the whole fascist thing.

Personally I'd like to see a proper 2 state solution in my lifetime (Palestine given autonomy, the settlements disbanded and the IDF withdrawn), unfortunately I think genuine progress in that regard is always going to run up against the religious view of 'entitlement' to those lands that the hardcore Israelis hold regarding Gods covenant with Moses. Until such time as the influence of religion in the area wanes its always going to be a cluster**** of common sense butting its head against ideological and politically dominant dogma.

The covenant that God made with Moses was one where in he wanted the Israelites to set an example of piety for the rest of mankind to follow (as his priests), not one wherein the 'chosen' are better than the rest. Somehow though this notion got lost along the way and the lack of that understanding and the subsequent inhumanity and contempt that has risen up in its place ("One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." etc, etc) is something that's increasingly lead to Israel's isolation and ostracization in the eyes of the wider world.

 

[Warped]

Of course not, and, it is in the past. (Meaning with the foundation of the state of Israel)

What do you guys suggest for Israel?

I would say for Israel to stop enclosing off Palestine and tear down the walls they put up. Stop the checkpoints and let more peacekeepers in the area. Then start paying back and fixing all the damage they have done to Palestine. If a small city state is firing homemade rockets and they don't have an airforce or airstrikes at their disposal it pretty much means they are beaten enough. What they did recently was an outrage and shouldn't be tolerated.

 

[Maturin]

What do we suggest for Israel? Two states, with the 1967 borders, an arrangement supported by the United States, the European Union, the Arab League, the African League, HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH and just about the entire planet. Not so much Israel and the bullshit terrorists.

The U.N. has repeatedly stressed that territory conquered in wartime is not the legal property of Israel. For the sake of peace though, Israel will keep the land it violently seized between the Arab-Israeli War in the 40s and the 6 Day War. They just have to stop building settlements and seizing Palestinian territory.

And yes, Hamas supports a two-state solution. They're just crazies who need their heads on straight, so they support the destruction of Israel at the same time. But if there's progress, they're out of a job.

VirusType: Unlike the colonization of America, the conquest of Palestine is not "over." The most densely populated place on earth is a Palestinian refugee camp. There are thousands upon thousands of them who have refused to leave or assimilate into their guest countries, and many are old enough to remember the war. And remember, people in the Middle East hold onto history far tighter than Americans do. The next generation will not be less determined because of the lack of firsthand memory.

 

[Warped]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&ei=GZgRSsXIHJH6rALz7dX0Bw&q=israel+propaganda&hl=en&emb=1&client=firefox-a

One of the best documentaries on the whole issue, definitely a good watch

 

[VirusType2]

I don't think your with me on anything tbh, not even this planet. For a man claiming to 'not to have taken a stance', you sure seem definitive about Israels right to ethnically cleanse the occupied territories. :dozey:

OK, first of all, I have to admit, I don't have television service, I don't get good radio reception, and I don't have much bandwidth, so I can rarely stream any audio or video on the internet.

Therefore, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say 'ethnically cleanse occupied territories'. So to be fair, you are quite right when you suggest I'm not from this planet, because it certainly seems I am out of touch.

So your saying the colonisation of America was a pre-emptive strike?

No, I didn't say it was a pre-emptive strike...

So you are saying it was Defensive?


You see, I just did what you did.

Look, all I was saying is that right now, Israel belongs to Israelis. At the very least they PHYSICALLY occupy it. Maybe you've never said it, but I have heard a lot of people propose that Israelis "just die", and that was their suggestion. So mine was, "die in battle, if necessary", and wasn't to be taken seriously. Though I guess I am guilty of taking "just die" too seriously now that I think about it.

Obviously, war should be a last resort.

What they did recently was an outrage and shouldn't be tolerated.

I'd like to know, where do you get news from Warped?

As a matter of fact, I'll just make a thread asking people where they get their news from, and I'll investigate them to find something suitable for me.

Then I will educate myself.

 

[Warped]

OK, first of all, I have to admit, I don't have television service, I don't get good radio reception, and I don't have much bandwidth, so I can rarely stream any audio or video on the internet.

Therefore, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say 'ethnically cleanse occupied territories'. So to be fair, you are quite right when you suggest I'm not from this planet, because it certainly seems I am out of touch.



No, I didn't say it was a pre-emptive strike...

So you are saying it was Defensive?


You see, I just did what you did.

Look, all I was saying is that right now, Israel belongs to Israelis. At the very least they PHYSICALLY occupy it. Maybe you've never said it, but I have heard a lot of people propose that Israelis "just die", and that was their suggestion. So mine was, "die in battle, if necessary", and wasn't to be taken seriously. Though I guess I am guilty of taking "just die" too seriously now that I think about it.

Obviously, war should be a last resort.



Can you recommend a good text based news source so I can educate myself proper?



I'd like to know, where do you get news from Warped?

As a matter of fact, I'll just make a thread asking people where they get their news from, and I'll investigate them to find something suitable for me.

Then I will educate myself.

I get my news from a wide variety. I hate singling out one type but I'll read my local newspaper from time to time, but CNN, BBC, ABC, Aljizeera and many others. If you don't get the whole pie your only tasting a small fraction

 

[Bob_Marley]

The pre-1967 "borders" were never agreed by the Palestinians, they were ceasefire lines between Israel, Jordan, Eygpt & Syria. The west bank was captured from the Jordanian occupation (as the west bank was covered by the British Mandate in Palestine and the internationally recognised state that is the sucessor to this terretory is Israel) after Jordan attacked Israel in 1967. Both the West Bank and Gaza strip were behind cease fire lines rather than internationally recognised borders in 1967 (at the insistence of Jordan & Eygpt respectivly). As such, as far as international law goes Israel is in the right (as Palestine isn't a state as it has no terretory, no monopoly on legitimate violence within thier terretory or international recognition. They are at best autonomus regions within Isreal, similar to the status of Kosovo or Transnistria).

And lets be honest, Israel is never going to go for a 2 state solution as it would comprimsie thier soverginty and so is a very good argument for other states not push too hard about it. The palestinians would probably be much more sucessful by forgetting all that and all asking to be made citizens of Israel and that all persons who have historic links to Israel/Palestine gets the right of return to the state of Israel (which if they refused the Israelis couldn't continue thier policy of letting anyone who is jewish become an Israeli citizen). Because there are far more Palestinians than Israelis they would be able to take over the government. That way they get the whole bloody lot rather just the West Bank and Gaza Strip. And they can rename it to whatever the hell they like!

 

[Maturin]

So because the Palestinians did not have a state originally (after being pushed around by a succession of empires, eastern and western), the Israelis (who did not have a state either when they took most of their current land) had a right to take whatever they wanted and kill or expel anyone they wanted? How enlightened, Genghis Khan.

The UN sets international law and the position of the UN is that the occupation is illegal.

And one more thing- Israel will never accept the Palestinians as part of a Jewish state for the simple fact that Palestinians would soon outnumber Israelis. Such a joined state could not be both Jewish and a democracy. Israeli already aggressively markets itself to the international Jewish community, encouraging immigration so that they maintain a Jewish majority. It's a battle of demographics, and now we have right-wingers like Avigdor Lieberman (who the editor of the National Review called a fascist- wow) that rant about the traitorous Arabs (who face casual discrimination) living inside Israel. He even proposes effectively expelling them by declaring certain villages suddenly part of the West Bank.

In the meantime, Israel keeps the Palestinians poor, fearful, and radical. Don't listen to anyone who calls it genocide, but a good word is 'politicide.' Making it impossible for them to form a functional government or economy. The illegal settlements keep going up because Israel aspires to control all the water resources and valuable land, and the refugees won't have the possibility of anything to go back to.

 

[Bob_Marley]

The UN has nothing to do with it. International Law is decided by agreements between states. The UN only has as much power as its member states decide to give it.

Its not like the Palestinians didn't fight in the civil war now is it? They just lost. And then all thier Arab mates lost too. A power vaccum in a failing state let one group come to power by force of arms. It happens that way sometimes. After all, the Americans didn't have a state originally, was it right for them to take control of the 13 colonies by force of arms? For the parlimintarians to take over England? The KLA in Kosovo?

Additionally, I am quite aware of what the israelis stance on this matter would be, but you seemed to have missed my main point. The international community is wary about supporting a two state solution because it sets a precident that every tin pot seperatist region like Kosovo, Scotland, Quebec or Transnistria has to be given up by its current owner. One of the main things that states arn't keen on its giving up terretory. If the Palestinians changed tack it robs the Israelis of one of thier most powerful tools to persuade everyone else not to put a great deal of pressure on them which means the international community may become rather more willing to get on thier side. Of course Israel can't exist as a Jewish state and democracy if this happened. Thats why they (allegedly) went to so much trouble with thier campagin of ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians back in '48.

 

[VirusType2]

Good thing that you guys are just a minority of the human population. I couldn't imagine living in a spineless, politically correct, holier than thou world you guys reside in.

"We are all African, tee hee!"

lol.

what's it like where you live, Crash?

 

[Maturin]

The UN has nothing to do with it. International Law is decided by agreements between states. The UN only has as much power as its member states decide to give it.

Its not like the Palestinians didn't fight in the civil war now is it? They just lost. And then all thier Arab mates lost too. A power vaccum in a failing state let one group come to power by force of arms. It happens that way sometimes. After all, the Americans didn't have a state originally, was it right for them to take control of the 13 colonies by force of arms? For the parlimintarians to take over England? The KLA in Kosovo?

Additionally, I am quite aware of what the israelis stance on this matter would be, but you seemed to have missed my main point. The international community is wary about supporting a two state solution because it sets a precident that every tin pot seperatist region like Kosovo, Scotland, Quebec or Transnistria has to be given up by its current owner. One of the main things that states arn't keen on its giving up terretory. If the Palestinians changed tack it robs the Israelis of one of thier most powerful tools to persuade everyone else not to put a great deal of pressure on them which means the international community may become rather more willing to get on thier side. Of course Israel can't exist as a Jewish state and democracy if this happened. Thats why they (allegedly) went to so much trouble with thier campagin of ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians back in '48.

Um, right. Agreements between countries. Of which the UN is the most codified and universally recognized. The UN is international law, because it is passes multilateral treaties. Sure, NATO is stronger, but that's not the issue here.

Losing a civil war doesn't mean that the other side is entitled to ethnic cleansing, it just means that you don't get the government you want.

You'd have to be a fool to compare Israel and Palestine to Trans-Dniester. There are Israelis and Palestinians living who are older than the Israeli state, even those who remember the Ottoman Empire. Moldova separated from the USSR and then fractured further. Trans-Dniester was always regarded by the government as part of Moldova, same with Kosovo, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Nagorno Karabakh.

Israel doesn't claim the occupied land as the historical property of the state, it just squats on it. The U.S. has already recognized Kosovo. Russia has recognized SO and Abkhazia. The issues are so different it is bizarre to think of one setting off the other, especially when the separatist struggles are already igniting wars and armed stalemates in Georiga and Sri Lanka, complete with hypocritical double standards between NATO and Russia. The Palestinians aren't separatists, and they aren't in an armed standoff against Israel.

Palestine is the pan-Arab cause that focuses radicalism and anti-Western sentiment throughout the Middle East. It is complicated and dramatic enough to be a separate issue, not a piece of a larger context. It is in the interest of every country involved to defuse the issue, and until there is a Palestinian state the region will be in a state of limbo which makes genuine interaction impossible. The world doesn't fear the creation of a Palestinian state, it's just reluctant to wade into the shitstorm that is the peace process, especially since relations with Israel are so important, and it is impossible to deal with militant groups. No one really cares about Israel's settlers besides Israel because they are illegal and counterproductive. Remember the withdrawal from the Gaza strip?

 

[Kadayi]

BM doesn't quite get that universal approval doesn't matter, the majority position is what counts. Israel can plead 'not guilty' all they want, but their protestations alone don't make them innocent. If it wasn't for the USAs blanket vetoing of any resolutions the UN makes regarding Israel, the Peacekeepers would have been in there a long time ago.

Recently a couple of 'Irish terrorists' shot and killed some British soldiers in Northern Ireland, bizarrely the British response wasn't to immediately carpet bomb Cork out of existence. Why? Because perhaps they have some sense of the consequences of ones actions no? :dozey: