To Anyone who lives in Britain.

Cooper

Cooper

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I was curious if anyone in Britian could comment on this article? Is it as big of a thing as CNN makes it out to be? In other words, are public speakings from Muslims of this stance common? Or have you personally never heard of it before?

I'm writing a paper on free speech and compairing the different western contries.
 
First off, I'm not an Englishman, but I know this much about Britain: It's the country where freedom of speech has gone wrong. Britain is the heart of Islamist sentiments in Europe, and if, God forbid, it ever goes as far as a civil war between radical Muslims and Europeans, Britain will be the first to fall because of its almost laughable level of tolerance of intolerance. Here's a very recent documentary on how mainstream these views are becoming even in "mainstream" mosques - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2668560761490749816&q=Dispatches+undercover

All the good stuff - "If she doesn't wear Hijab we hit her.", "Oh Muslim, behind me is a Jew, come and kill him!", "We have to live like a state within a state untill we take over.", "We hate the Kuffar!", and who can forget "Take that homosexual man... and throw him off the mountain!" There's just so much. Watch the documentary, it will supplement anything you write about Britain in a lot of ways.
 
We have similar problems in Holland. Though I hope and prey moderate Muslims are the ones that kick the crap out of these extremists. Its not something Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu's etc can "fix". According to these extremists, we're all liars, including the moderate Muslims who oppose them.
However, what we can do, is allow and push the moderate Muslim community to react to this, so Muslim anger and polarization decreases => its not "us" and "them" anymore.
Then imo, what governments should do, just like when Hooligans incite riots, is pick out the trouble makers, and throw them in jail and/or out of the country (if they are not a citizen).
It works pretty good with Hooligans, why do we shield these extremist retards behind "freedom of speech".
Btw, this also goes for any religious extremist inciting intolerance and hatred. Imo a countries tolerance towards anything should end, where intolerance begins.
 
Speech is a previlieage, not a right, people.
 
You sound like a commie, numbers.

We've had some troubles here in Sweden too. Some muslims suggesting that Sharia law should be in place for all Swedish muslims. Those comments were pretty much rejected by the whole muslim community, though.
 
Taxman said:
You sound like a commie, numbers.

We've had some troubles here in Sweden too. Some muslims suggesting that Sharia law should be in place for all Swedish muslims. Those comments were pretty much rejected by the whole muslim community, though.
Click to expand...

How do I sound like a commie? Why do you insult me this badly?
 
GiaOmerta mentioned the Dispatches programme that recently aired on UK Channel 4, that's got a few people heated up.

The current attidude? There are quite a few Imams in the country who are always whining on about how their always hard done to. You can almost set your watch by it. Their viewed as an annoyance mainly, no-one ever really takes them ultra-seriously.

Saying that though, that's how Hitler got the opportunity to piss half the world off over 6 years.

Personally, I haven't got a problem with threats to deport them if they are non-UK nationals/arrest them under public order offences for using threatening words causing harrassment, alarm or distress.
 
Taxman said:
Freedom of speech is a born right, not a privilege given by you by the state or someone else.
Click to expand...

Let's say that only you existed, or you didn't have any contact with anybody else. Where is the born right of speech, when you can't actually speak?


I'd rather be called a f*cking retarded fascist maniac than a commie, btw.
 
That story is from Dublin which is in Ireland (Eire) not Britain. Or at least that's what it says. I think any Irish people on the board would be a tad pissed off about that piece of decidely poor journalism.
But I'm nit-picking.

The interesting thing about extremism and what people perceive to be its diffusion into "mainstream" Islam (as if it were a logical progression or a natural occurrance like some kind of socio-religious osmosis) is that it is a nasty self-perpetuating circle.

1. Muslims come to Britain and, as human beings initially stick with what they know, they go and live near other Muslims.
2. This in turn seems very exclusionist which makes non-Muslims unfamiliar with and wary of the Muslim community.
3. The Muslim community feels this and sticks together more, essentially galvanising itself at what it perceives to be a threat. They may find it harder to adjust.
4. The community becoming more tightly knit makes Islam seem increasingly alien to non-Muslims who become increasingly wary.
5. Rinse and repeat.

Throw the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq into the mix and modern British Muslims will feel more and more maligned in society and will be quicker to perceive certain things as Islamophobic or whatever.
I'm not saying one side is right over the other, I am simply showing how things have escalated to where we are now and how extremism grows and ends with vicious individuals praying on people's fears and calling for extreme cruelty.

Extremism in non-Muslims has also grown, in the form of Islamophobic violence with racist thugs intimidating and beating up anyone they think might be Muslim, encouraged by vicious individuals praying on people's fears and sewing the seeds for extreme cruelty.

I live in a very Muslim area - one of the recently -jailed attempted bombers was from near my area, and I'm a short bus ride away from the infamous Finsbury Park mosque.
Incidentally, this area also has a large Hasidic Jewish population (I'd say they're in the majority, but only slightly) and the two communities don't exactly pop 'round to one another's houses to borrow some sugar, but they co-exist well enough.
If Islam in the UK was so extreme, don't you think there would be regular religious and politically-motivated beatings of Hasidic Jews? There's lots of them - it wouldn't be too difficult to find and beat one of them up if you had enough hate in you fostered by clerics using centuries of religious conflict as a catalyst. It wouldn't be difficult as a cleric to drum up feelings of extremism if you wanted to.

But maybe I'm missing the point? Maybe random thuggery is low down on their agenda and the everyday Muslim has bigger fish to fry, so to speak.
If so, why not more terrorist attacks in the name of Allah. I have no desire to sound like I feel there should be, I merely observe that, if hatred was so commonplace, why isn't there more violence?
The bombings of the 7th of July were atrocious - I'm an atheist and so whilst I don't believe in Hell, a sadistic irrational part of me wishes there was such a plain of existence for horrific individuals such as them.
The following failed bombings a fortnight later were frightening, no doubt, but we were lucky enough that these individuals were incompetent bastards.
Before that extremely frightening month, there had been no terrorist attacks in the UK since the IRA ceasefire. It was just under four years since 9/11 and the invasion of Afghanistan; just over two years since the invasion of Iraq, which is a lot of time for more attacks or plots to transpire. Thankfully, they did not.
Since then, there have been none and God forbid (metaphorically speaking) there won't be more. But of course we cannot be sure of this. My point is that, if Islamic hatred within the UK was at such fever pitch, why is it that all we hear about are words. Once again I'll stress that I sincerely hope that nothing more is able to happen.

Before anyone accuses me of wearing rose-tinted glasses, as I'm sure they will, I will not deny that extremist Islam is on the rise. What with the current world situation, this is hardly surprising - we see the circle I mentioned before coming into effect.
However it is not on the rise as much as the media focusses on. As ever, we see the "If it bleeds, it leads" mentality of the news (papers, TV, etc.) inflating issues out of proportion?
Remember the BSE scare? People threw away loads of their food when they first heard about that and wouldn't eat beef for years afterwards but those affected were few, albeit with lamentable results.
The same applies here. There is a problem with certain Muslims who are hate-filled and vicious and try and infect the minds of others, but these are the ones we hear about in the news. "Muslim boy goes to mosque and later talks to white friends" doesn't sell papers. "Muslim boy turned from cricket fan to suicide bomber by extremist clerics" on the other hand, does sell papers.
In exactly the same way, "US army medic helps treat injured Iraqi civilians" doesn't capture people's attention as much as "US army medic shoots unarmed Iraqi civilians".
You, as an individual of intelligence and logical judgement, must work out for yourself which is the more commonplace occurrance, or which is more significant in the grand scheme of things.

Nemesis6 said:
First off, I'm not an Englishman, but I know this much about Britain: It's the country where freedom of speech has gone wrong. Britain is the heart of Islamist sentiments in Europe, and if, God forbid, it ever goes as far as a civil war between radical Muslims and Europeans, Britain will be the first to fall because of its almost laughable level of tolerance of intolerance. Here's a very recent documentary on how mainstream these views are becoming even in "mainstream" mosques - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2668560761490749816&q=Dispatches+undercover

All the good stuff - "If she doesn't wear Hijab we hit her.", "Oh Muslim, behind me is a Jew, come and kill him!", "We have to live like a state within a state untill we take over.", "We hate the Kuffar!", and who can forget "Take that homosexual man... and throw him off the mountain!" There's just so much. Watch the documentary, it will supplement anything you write about Britain in a lot of ways.
Click to expand...
Nemesis, as someone not on the ground, as it were, here in Britain I wonder where your claim as to our (by which I mean we Brits) free speech being impeded comes from?

I think when you focus on Muslims, you also forget to focus on non-Muslims.
The British National Party who are at paints to try and lay a veneer of credibility over their inherently and inescapably racist views (not to mention their Hitlerian canvassing tactics) are afforded just as much right to preach their intolerance of anyone not originally from the UK (and even citizens who were born in the UK whose parents immigrated) as the "radical" (I use inverted commas to avoid the obvious argument people will raise by trying to tell me that their views aren't radical but mainstream) Muslim clerics.
The leader, Nick Griffith, was fairly recently acquitted of incitement to racial hatred after undercover footage showed him being viciously and puganciously bigotted.

On the flip side, that infamous preacher of religious hatred and figure of much public mocking, Abu Hamza is currently imprisoned for 11 charges of incitement to racial hatred, murder, and various similar crimes and will serve just under nine years. He was in direct contradiction of free speech laws (amongst others) and as such did not get away with it - I hardly think that says Muslims are afforded more leeway.
As an aside, the verdict came soon after the aforementioned Griffith's acquittal. I only mention this to draw a contrast - if our current legal climate is so intent on appeasement for Islam, why was Hamza jailed where Griffith was set free?
Hamza has recently been told that he himself must foot the bill for the legal proceedings leading to his imprisonment which is estimated to be over ?1 million. I hardly see this as evidence that Islamic extremeists are getting away with it.

15357 said:
Let's say that only you existed, or you didn't have any contact with anybody else. Where is the born right of speech, when you can't actually speak?
Click to expand...
Just to double check: You're aware that that sentence makes no sense, right?
 
Well, one thing I generally disagree with is people who claim Islamic extremism is on the rise "because" of the Iraq war, 9/11, Guantanamo Bay and Afghanistan.
These things are definately large amounts of fuel but added to an already existing fire.
We also can't solely blame social group forming for the current problems, since I hardly hear from non-Islamic immigrants. In fact one of my friends is an African and surely he must have had the same social problems Arab immigrants had, yet he, and millions with him, chose to integrate with Dutch society (the guy's more Dutch than I am lol).

The problems are much bigger and global. Simply take a look at the trial-playground North Africa, thats the future. Christianity, Atheism, and Islam have been clashing their for ages, and even today, oppressive intolerant laws in those countries produce intolerant people, its no surprise.
When these people immigrate to Europe, how ignorant are we to expect them to "respect the infidels laws" while all their life and culture they've learned disbelievers lie, are inferior and Allah's laws go above all others. Lets not forget most Arab immigrants to Europe are 1st or second generation immigrants, they or their parents have literally just come from countries where all other beliefs are inferior by law and oppressed. Then we allow Imams to come directly from these intolerant countries to preach how interior the rest of us are.

This however, leads to one of the big problems we also have, which is self-Islamification.
I remember on Television only 2 months ago a documentary on a Dutch town where Islamic people were becoming the majority in population; One of the things that I was pissed about is that a local dutch-run swimming pool agreeing, after years of harassment and protest, to split into man - woman pools and forcing women to dress "appropriately".
We are voluntarily breaking down our society, bringing it back 300 years, all in the good name of "Tolerance" towards intolerant people.
This then greatly contributes to the Dutch skinhead rise, because radicalizing is the only option they see to counter this.

As i mentioned before, i firmly support the fact that tolerance should end where intolerance begins. It will decrease Islamic wacko's, Christian wacko's and skinheads.
If Christians in Holland would pop up and demand this type of crap they too need to be smacked down. Yet at the moment its mainly mass Muslim communities who are breeding off of this Dutch obsession with tolerance and its probably no different in Britain.
In short, imo by tolerating intolerance, we're not only generating Islamic extremism, but skinheads as well = polarization.
 
What the hell?
Dublin is not in Britain, I'd expected better from an international news agency.

Edit:

I'm also going to say something which I've completely changed my mind on, a while ago I've posed here defending Islam from such reports, sticking up for the Muslim community being very liberal on such a matter. I've recently changed my mind pretty much completely.

Islam, is, imho an awful thing, it's a force which restricts individuals civil liberties, turns scholars into idiots, musicians to stop playing, countries to go to war and it motivates attacks against civilians.Now, I think the same thing applies to Christianity, Judaism and other mass-delusional beliefs but I think right now Islam is one of the most dangerous. In Christianity we have fundamentalists who create alot of damage to society, but luckily they are a minority.

The same thing however cannot be said about Islam, it is my opinion that all Muslims are fundamentalists, just some are in denial about this. There is no interpretation of the Que-ran that could allow one to claim Islam is a religion of peace, it's filled with passages telling Muslims that they will go to heaven if they kill infidels, killing non-believers is great, all non-believers should be killed ect. I must admit, I'd heard such quotations before, but believed they were in a minority and taken out of context but in Sam Harris's book the end of faith I was confronted with 5 pages of quotations all telling Muslims that killing non-believers is good, I was absolutely shocked.

After a lot of thinking, further reading ect. I'm pretty confident that Islam is no friend of mine. I also have a lot of freinds who are Muslims, questioning these people about the Que-ran leads to me learning that they never knew it contained some phrases and were probably over-ruled somewhere. Muslims think a book, filled with more calls to genocide than Mein Kampf is the perfect word of god?

I truly fear a Muslim Majority in this country, are there any Secular societies where Muslims are the majority? Or where people even have basic freedoms that are respected by the government? If we look at all states ruled by Islamcsists we see women being killed for non wearing the hijhab, no freedom of religion, unfair, unethical religious laws. I mean, sure one could make the case, as I used to, that in the UK Muslims are very tolerant of our views, but what minority isn't?
 
el Chi said:
Just to double check: You're aware that that sentence makes no sense, right?
Click to expand...




it's a riddle el chi ..like "what's the sound of one hand clapping" or "what would free speech sound like if you were mute?" or "How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?" or "if I curtail your freedom will you be as free as South koreans?"



great post btw good to see a rational perspective on things for a change :)
 
Nemesis6 said:
First off, I'm not an Englishman, but I know this much about Britain: It's the country where freedom of speech has gone wrong. Britain is the heart of Islamist sentiments in Europe, and if, God forbid, it ever goes as far as a civil war between radical Muslims and Europeans, Britain will be the first to fall because of its almost laughable level of tolerance of intolerance. Here's a very recent documentary on how mainstream these views are becoming even in "mainstream" mosques - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2668560761490749816&q=Dispatches+undercover

All the good stuff - "If she doesn't wear Hijab we hit her.", "Oh Muslim, behind me is a Jew, come and kill him!", "We have to live like a state within a state untill we take over.", "We hate the Kuffar!", and who can forget "Take that homosexual man... and throw him off the mountain!" There's just so much. Watch the documentary, it will supplement anything you write about Britain in a lot of ways.
Click to expand...

What utter utter BS. Nemesis, you really do have to cease pushing your agenda against the muslims, it's getting pretty tiresome. Perhaps it's time you and your stooge went and found another bulletin board to promote Israels POV upon. Given the near absence of Gaming posts either of you make, it's clear neither of you come here for gaming purposes unlike the rest of us.

The UK is actually pretty down to earth about things, and tend to look at issues from a practical perspective. Where people have incited racial hate, they have generally been either deported or imprisioned. As for favouring Muslims:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6179842.stm

there weren't massive demonstations or flag burning over that incident.
 
Solaris said:
What the hell?
Dublin is not in Britain, I'd expected better from an international news agency.

Edit:

I'm also going to say something which I've completely changed my mind on, a while ago I've posed here defending Islam from such reports, sticking up for the Muslim community being very liberal on such a matter. I've recently changed my mind pretty much completely.

Islam, is, imho an awful thing, it's a force which restricts individuals civil liberties, turns scholars into idiots, musicians to stop playing, countries to go to war and it motivates attacks against civilians.Now, I think the same thing applies to Christianity, Judaism and other mass-delusional beliefs but I think right now Islam is one of the most dangerous. In Christianity we have fundamentalists who create alot of damage to society, but luckily they are a minority.

The same thing however cannot be said about Islam, it is my opinion that all Muslims are fundamentalists, just some are in denial about this. There is no interpretation of the Que-ran that could allow one to claim Islam is a religion of peace, it's filled with passages telling Muslims that they will go to heaven if they kill infidels, killing non-believers is great, all non-believers should be killed ect. I must admit, I'd heard such quotations before, but believed they were in a minority and taken out of context but in Sam Harris's book the end of faith I was confronted with 5 pages of quotations all telling Muslims that killing non-believers is good, I was absolutely shocked.

After a lot of thinking, further reading ect. I'm pretty confident that Islam is no friend of mine. I also have a lot of freinds who are Muslims, questioning these people about the Que-ran leads to me learning that they never knew it contained some phrases and were probably over-ruled somewhere. Muslims think a book, filled with more calls to genocide than Mein Kampf is the perfect word of god?

I truly fear a Muslim Majority in this country, are there any Secular societies where Muslims are the majority? Or where people even have basic freedoms that are respected by the government? If we look at all states ruled by Islamcsists we see women being killed for non wearing the hijhab, no freedom of religion, unfair, unethical religious laws. I mean, sure one could make the case, as I used to, that in the UK Muslims are very tolerant of our views, but what minority isn't?
Click to expand...

Woah. I knew it would happen, I just didn't realise it would be so soon. *clap*

By the way numbers, you really do sound like a ****ing commie. It's comical.
 
Kadayi Polokov said:
What utter utter BS. Nemesis, you really do have to cease pushing your agenda against the muslims, it's getting pretty tiresome. Perhaps it's time you and your stooge went and found another bulletin board to promote Israels POV upon. Given the near absence of Gaming posts either of you make, it's clear neither of you come here for gaming purposes unlike the rest of us.

The UK is actually pretty down to earth about things, and tend to look at issues from a practical perspective. Where people have incited racial hate, they have generally been either deported or imprisioned. As for favouring Muslims:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6179842.stm

there weren't massive demonstations or flag burning over that incident.
Click to expand...

Posting in the politics forum to complain about someone posting in the politics forum? :rolleyes:
 
Personally I'm no fan of Islam as it presently exists as I believe that it is essential for the Muslim world to make a clear seperation between religion and state, just as the Christian nations have done, especially with regard to operation and law. However I have no tolerance for people whose agenda is simply to spread misinformation regarding muslims to promote distrust and suspicion.
 
Kadayi Polokov said:
When their agenda is simply to spread misinformation why not.
Click to expand...

I've never seen you offer a valid or substantial counter-argument to anything Nemesis has said, nor anything I have said. Statements that don't fit your infantile view of the world are not the same thing is misinformation.
Nemesis' "agenda", I assume, as is mine, is to get people to wake up to reality. It seems to be working - Solaris has been converted. Your turn next.
 
Being a 21 year old junior in a london recruitment office I'm sure you see lots of reality. :dozey:
 
Kadayi Polokov said:
Being a 21 year old junior in a london recruitment office I'm sure you see lots of reality. :dozey:
Click to expand...

I've billed over ?5000 in my first two and a half weeks, a reality the likes of which you will never see. I'm close to making company history.
So, how old are you and what do you do? You never did actually tell me. I bet you're still doing your GCSEs. Nothing else would explain why you choose to constantly refer to what I do and what I earn as a rebuttal. I think it's jealousy.
 
repiV said:
I've billed over ?5000 in my first two and a half weeks, a reality the likes of which you will never see. I'm close to making company history.
So, how old are you and what do you do? You never did actually tell me. I bet you're still doing your GCSEs. Nothing else would explain why you choose to constantly refer to what I do and what I earn as a rebuttal. I think it's jealousy.
Click to expand...
Really? I had no idea that the amount of money you made was directly proportional to the amount of reality you see.

If that's the case Bill Gates must be the most down-to-Earth person there is...
 
36 year old, well travelled, architectural design professional, recently remarried with 2 children (1 former, 1 latter) seeks amusement by ridiculing muslim hating fools on gaming boards, in between looking at relevant gaming news.
 
DaMaN said:
Really? I had no idea that the amount of money you made was directly proportional to the amount of reality you see.

If that's the case Bill Gates must be the most down-to-Earth person there is...
Click to expand...

Why don't you direct your comment towards the person who used my age and line of work - a line of work that is suitable only for pragmatic, results-driven people who get out there and make things happen - as an argument for me not understanding reality?
I mean, WTF?
 
repiV said:
I've never seen you offer a valid or substantial counter-argument to anything Nemesis has said, nor anything I have said. Statements that don't fit your infantile view of the world are not the same thing is misinformation.
Nemesis' "agenda", I assume, as is mine, is to get people to wake up to reality. It seems to be working - Solaris has been converted. Your turn next.
Click to expand...

I like the way you define your opinion as "reality" and feel the need to try to "convert" people. Sounds like fundamentalism to me.
 
Kadayi Polokov said:
36 year old, well travelled, architectural design professional, recently remarried with 2 children (1 former, 1 latter) seeks amusement by ridiculing muslim hating fools on gaming boards.
Click to expand...

Sorry, a moment ago you were chastising Nemesis for coming to gaming boards to discuss politics. Now you proudly claim that you come to gaming boards to make childish comments in political threads. You ain't that bright, are you?
You've still yet to make any kind of coherent argument, and there are people on these forums who aren't even adults yet that come across as a lot older than you.
 
Pi Mu Rho said:
I like the way you define your opinion as "reality" and feel the need to try to "convert" people. Sounds like fundamentalism to me.
Click to expand...

Where did I say anything about my opinion? And where was the small print that said you had to take the word "convert" literally? :rolleyes:
 
It's fundamentally flawed, that's for sure. Given my age I'm hoping he'll realise I'm past converting.:angel:

RepIV, your jedi mind tricks won't work on me boy :dozey:
 
Kadayi Polokov said:
It's fundamentally flawed, that's for sure. Given my age I'm hoping he'll realise I'm past converting.:angel:
Click to expand...

How can your opinions possibly be valid, if they are permanently fixed and unchangeable by time and experience?
 
repiV said:
Where did I say anything about my opinion? And where was the small print that said you had to take the word "convert" literally? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Oh please, don't try and argue semantics with me.
 
repiV said:
How can your opinions possibly be valid, if they are permanently fixed and unchangeable by time and experience?
Click to expand...
An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. Whether it changes or not does not affect its validity.
 
Pi Mu Rho said:
Oh please, don't try and argue semantics with me.
Click to expand...

Semantics?
Comparing my post to fundamentalism is possibly the most ludicrous thing I've heard this week. It's got nothing to do with semantics.
 
DaMaN said:
An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. Whether it changes or not does not affect its validity.
Click to expand...

Reality is ever-changing. If your opinion never changes, as reality does, then it is by definition based on inadequate or inaccurate information, pre-conceived notions rather than facts, and is therefore invalid.
 
Pi Mu Rho said:
It has everything to do with semantics.



Are you the arbiter of reality now?
Click to expand...

Oh, wait - nevermind that Kadayaki Polokov initially accused Nemesis of having an agenda of spreading misinformation. Is he the arbiter of reality?

Right, and it never once occured to you that I was being facetious with the "conversion" comment? The first and last thing that came to mind was that I'm a holy crusader out on a mission to convert the infidels? Jesus Christ...
 
repiV said:
Reality is ever-changing. If your opinion never changes, as reality does, then it is by definition based on inadequate or inaccurate information, pre-conceived notions rather than facts, and is therefore invalid.
Click to expand...
An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified.
 
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