Unit cohesion in games.

[hl_grunt]

In almost any game, in a pub server, even when everyone spawns in same place, within 1 minute everyone runs around rampant in every which direction. Many games boast teamplay, but when you actually play it, this is rarely the case. I think NS is the only game so far I've seen where people stuck together and cooperated (for example welded each other and protected the person "building" the rt). There's also DoD, I suppose, but even there people start running around like cockroaches, waiting to be killed off one by one.

Questions:

Why do you think people separate in fps instead of sticking together?

Do you know any games where this is not the case?

What kind of teamplay/rules do you think would make people who meet for the first time in a pub work as a team?

 

[Lucid]

They're strangers or they probably just don't care.

Battlefield series when you join squads, Call of Duty 4 on the S&D game mode, UT2004 Onslaught and CTF... almost always have people following me or I'm following them planning what to do as we go along, Insurgency mod for HL2.

Get assist kill points seems to work for COD4 and the BF series but really not much else that you can do to enforce it really.

 

[hl_grunt]

Get assist kill points seems to work for COD4 and the BF series but really not much else that you can do to enforce it really.

Hmm... I think it's not so much about enforcing it (people tend to resist/dislike being forced to do things) but about creating environment where it makes sense to work as a team. For example, in NS, you're free to wander off alone wherever you like. However, at some point in the game a giant alien literally the size of elephant might come around the next corner and knowing that kind of makes me personally want to be around people with guns. The more people, the more guns, the merrier. :sniper:
Also, in NS, there are rewards... Kind of. One thing you notice is that NS the good "commanders" will give out the "good" weaponry to the "good" people. So if 5 of you were traveling as a cohesive group, killed the baddies and capped points, comms tend to notice, and give out shotguns/armor/heathpacks for that. If you just camp the base, commanders generally ignore your pleas for stuff.

 

[Jintor]

TF2, even on pub servers, though not as much.

Want some NS source. : <

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

OP gets my respects for mentioning one of the few games which encourages (and requires) teamplay in a most graceful way. All hail NS!

I do understand your frustration at the lack of team work in the average DoD public server, but that's the nature of the monster, right? It's worth looking into people who play "realism" rules. There's some interesting clans and communities within DoD and DoD: Source. Many of them emphasize a great deal of immersion and team work.

 

[Operational]

Real teamwork is hard to setup even with mic's so most people don't bother.

Why do you think people separate in fps instead of sticking together?

Lone wolf mentality, No real team plan so everyone does their own thing, a desire to flank the enemy when they reveal their location by attacking a teammate, etc

What kind of teamplay/rules do you think would make people who meet for the first time in a pub work as a team?

Generally I've found that a person with a mic and some confidence (even if it's not deserved) can lead a team with basic commands rather well - any amount of semi-competent teamwork is heaps better than no teamwork.

 

[TwwIX]

I love games that put emphasis on teamwork and reward you for it. That's why i enjoy Co-op games and MMO's so much. Well,some mmo's anyway. Mainly PvE. I don't even bother with first person shooters anymore, unless there is some solid teamwork involved.
If you Solo or Lone Wolf an online game than you have some serious behavioral issues.
Why the **** are you playing an online game if you do not want to socialize with others?

 

[lefty]

Most of the time you don't need anybody else if you're good enough. And besides, if you die you respawn in a few seconds, so what's the big deal.

I'm talking TF2 here, by the way.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

As far as general FPS's go, games like TF2 have quite a long ass respawn time (20 seconds default?).

 

[Jintor]

TF2 does have a large emphasis on teamplay, but it's not actually essential. But it is very helpful!

 

[Bad^Hat]

Join a clan. One that isn't full of idiots (good luck).

 

[hl_grunt]

Join a clan. One that isn't full of idiots (good luck).

For what game though?

 

[Ravioli]

Theres a distinct difference in public and competitive gameplay. If you join a random server in almost any game, you will expect people running off doing their own thing. But with competitive gameplay you ofcorse focus on the team, communication, strategy, tactics etc, you heavily rely on each other.

 

[MattyDienhoff]

In almost any game, in a pub server, even when everyone spawns in same place, within 1 minute everyone runs around rampant in every which direction. Many games boast teamplay, but when you actually play it, this is rarely the case. I think NS is the only game so far I've seen where people stuck together and cooperated (for example welded each other and protected the person "building" the rt). There's also DoD, I suppose, but even there people start running around like cockroaches, waiting to be killed off one by one.

Questions:

Why do you think people separate in fps instead of sticking together?

Do you know any games where this is not the case?

What kind of teamplay/rules do you think would make people who meet for the first time in a pub work as a team?

Why don't people use teamwork?
Mainly, because it's a lot of effort for little reward. In most games there's not all that much to be gained by sticking together, and even if there is, most people still can't be bothered to coordinate their actions with others.

Do I know any games where this is not the case?
Kind of, generally you're far more likely to see coordinated team play in slower paced tactical shooters like Operation Flashpoint, Armed Assault, Red Orchestra, Insurgency, etc. than in the mainstream shooters, but even in those people often won't stick together, it depends on the players. Red Orchestra (RO: Ostfront 41-45, the commercial game, not the mod, I never played that) is probably the most team oriented game I've ever played, in that players reguarly formed coherent groups, even in public servers I played on.

Even in less realistic games I make an effort, in Call of Duty 4 team games I try to coordinate and communicate with teammates if there's anything to gain from it, mostly in S&D. I also practice tactics like bounding overwatch, occasionally. You know, it's sort of like fire and movement. Person A covers alley/sight line while person B moves up, person B takes cover and aims down the alley, person A moves up, etc. Occasionally I and another player wind up moving together and doing that automatically, but it's fairly rare. Most people are very out of sync with their teammates and only conscious of themselves and their targets, it seems.

The best example of using teamwork to prevail against overwhelming odds I've experienced was in Red Orchestra. This was the situation: It was basic attack-defend gameplay, Soviets versus Germans. The Germans start in a clearing about 150m from a trench network around an anti-tank gun position (objective A). The trench network snakes back behind the AT gun position about 150m, with a command bunker (objective B) in the center of the network. At the other end of the network is one last open stretch across some fields in between the trenches and the train station, which is objective C.

Anyway, I was playing on the German team, and the game didn't start well, the Soviets had a really solid defence up, and we just couldn't penetrate it. Minutes and minutes went on and we never even got close to capturing the AT guns. Part of the problem was we were disorganized, people would push forward one at a time, get gunned down, respawn, and push forward again. We were trickling into the objective one at a time, lacking the numbers we needed to force our way in and fend off counter attacks. I (and, occasionally, one or two others) made it into the trenches a few times, but we ended up outnumbered and outgunned and didn't last long.

So this went on until there were only about 3 and a half minutes left on the clock, and we still hadn't taken the first objective, and I was fed up with the futility of it, so I stopped at the last line of cover just before the open ground leading to the trenches and starting yelling at the rest of the guys to stop, wait, and listen to me. Surprisingly, most did, while the rest pushed on and got gunned down by the defenders ahead, as usual. Within about 20 seconds half of the team had stacked up behind cover while I explained that, obviously, we didn't have a chance to take the objective by going one at a time, like we'd been doing... But if we'd go together, with our machinegunner and sniper ready to provide covering fire, there's no way they could cut us all down before we reached the trenches. I suppose everyone else was as fed up with the way things were going as I was, so they were willing to give it a try, I told our commander (the guy in the officer class, he wasn't actively commanding, though, until now) to give the order to attack when he was ready, and we'd all move together.

And, partially by luck, it all came together perfectly. Our sniper nailed the enemy machinegunner, while our machinegunner dropped a group of three Soviets, including their commander, the 'move in' order was given, and we all charged as a group. About half of us died on the way in (including me) but that left about 7 players who cleared the trenches with ease and took the objective in just over 10 seconds, before we even respawned. I was utterly shocked but didn't expect we'd be able to keep the momentum up, I was just glad we'd finally taken the first objective. At this point there was just over a minute and a half left on the clock, not enough time to take the remaining two objectives. Or so I thought...

The defenders must've been as shocked as I was at this sudden turn of events, because they slacked off and didn't move in to defend the second objective fast enough, and we went on to take objective B (the bunker) shortly thereafter with little effort, catching the would-be defenders on their way in. With less than a minute left to go now, and one more objective to take, we all threw caution to the wind and sprinted for the train station, and ended up forcing the Soviets out and taking it with less than 15 seconds left on the clock. Epic.

Yeah, I just had to share that war story. It's just a pity that kind of stuff doesn't happen more often. >_>

 

[hl_grunt]

The one epic battle I can remember was in 1.5 cs days. It was on cs_militia and we were losing round after round to T's camping roofs with snipers. Me and my rl friend urged everyone on the server to save money for few rounds and then 'para rush' the T's, as insane as that was. There were not many microphones back then, so this was all done in texting. Anyways, after 3 rounds, we stormed out in one big mob shooting and spraying every which way and there were no sounds heard except those of para gunfire. The innacurate but overwhelming gunfire drove snipers back probably by the sheer surprise and soon the madness spread inside the house... Needless to say after that the round was won.

 

[Asuka]

because most people are stupid, everyone thinks they are better and smarter then the person next to them. Its the way of pubs.

 

[Eejit]

Downloading NS again. Want NS2 already