Valve needs to address this issue IMMEDIATELY

[Born]

Sorry for the caps, but this is a pretty damn big issue. Straight to business: the problem is located in Versus (possibly single-player aswell, but not tested); No Mercy, The Sewers; at the petrol-station stage of the chapter where you ascend to the roof in a construction lift while fighting off the horde. As you run across the rooftop and enter the warehouse through a large window, relatively directly below this is a shuttered doorway, which remains closed until you press a button to open it from the inside of the building. I belive Valve placed this entryway here to help survivors access and help other downed/distressed teammates who didn't make it through the window and into the warehouse (a Smoker pulled somebody back down off the rooftop, for example - which I love doing btw xD).
Now, the shitty thing is, the Survivors can completely skip the lift scene by continually meleeing the closed shutter. In approximately 20-30 seconds, the Survivors have "bashed down" the shutter and gained instant access to the warehouse, allowing them to quickly move on. This consequently ruins the game for the Infected; they may deal out a good amount of damage after the Survivors' glitched advantage, but that crucial scene in the game gives the Infected ALOT of good striking/ambush opportunities (particularly the Smoker). There's no buts or what ifs; if you want to argue against this simple logic then I'll just instantly label you as a moron.

I sincerely hope Valve will fix this issue very soon, because lately I've become a Left 4 Dead obsessed nerd :dork:

On a side note, this may be old news to alot of you foo's, but I didn't notice this complaint anywhere else in the forum xD

 

[giant384]

ive never seen this in the game before, you need to post this on the steampowered forum....

 

[JFry]

I'd respond but well... you said yourself it would be futile. It has been posted before on the steam forums btw.

 

[Gordon-Shepherd]

Whoa, you can do that?
That sucks, but Im totally doing this until it's fixed now, thanks

 

[kineaesth]

There's ways to skip many crescendo moments like this, for example jumping between roofs in Dead Air to skip the dumpster scene.

 

[iZ94]

what?

I thought this was intentional on valves part?

 

[Hectic Glenn]

what?

I thought this was intentional on valves part?

I thought so too, I break that door down every time I play it. It's a very well known part of the map, it's meant to be there, why else would they make the door destructible?

 

[CyberPitz]

Yeah, people showed that to me, I was like D:

I don't think it's on purpose. If they let you 'bypass' the hordes like that, then I guess the 'melee the gun to skip events also' is supposed to be there.

 

[Sledgehammer]

I never skip those key events. They just make the game more fun in my opinion.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

Yeah, people showed that to me, I was like D:

I don't think it's on purpose. If they let you 'bypass' the hordes like that, then I guess the 'melee the gun to skip events also' is supposed to be there.

probably meant for only a tank to bust through.

 

[DerbyDriver1985]

My team did this in a match I played recently.

The infected still gave us hell and ended up winning not long after.

Even though you skip the horde, all it takes is a couple boomers to make it just as hard to get past. It takes time to knock down the door, and in that time, a good infected team working together is just as effective as they would be were the survivors to activate the lift.

I really don't see a problem here.

When my team switched to infected, they also knocked down the door but we still managed to tear them to shreds in the sewers, as we dealt a lot of damage while they were pounding down the door.

 

[Kula Meenur]

I thought so too, I break that door down every time I play it. It's a very well known part of the map, it's meant to be there, why else would they make the door destructible?

Yeah, people showed that to me, I was like D:

I don't think it's on purpose. If they let you 'bypass' the hordes like that, then I guess the 'melee the gun to skip events also' is supposed to be there.

Versus comes to mind

 

[SamuraiKenji]

I've done this before on the Campaign
It's pretty useful if you don't want to face a Horde and all but not fair in Versus

 

[Omnomnick]

I thought so too, I break that door down every time I play it. It's a very well known part of the map, it's meant to be there, why else would they make the door destructible?

Exactly, if it wasn't intended to be there why would they give it a damage counter. Or its somebody's idea of a joke.

Another thing which needs to be fixed or has been, I'm not sure, is the Infected's ability to move props. Yesterday while trying Spiltscreen Versus with my friend on the 360, a group of zombies pushed a yellow generator infront of the Level 28 lift door on No Mercy 4. It took us about 20 minutes to get out which included me being incapacitated near it to shift it and pushing a boomer into it inorder to blow it 20cm back. After we escaped from the lift, they had used a Forklift to blockade a small corridor between the concrete pillars and some boxes. It was easier to climb over but they still pounced one of us and got 2 boomer hordes after us while we were figuring out how. It really ruined the game for us...

 

[giant384]

cant the only thing that can move a prop is tank? the others aren't strong enough.

 

[Born]

My team did this in a match I played recently.

The infected still gave us hell and ended up winning not long after.

Even though you skip the horde, all it takes is a couple boomers to make it just as hard to get past. It takes time to knock down the door, and in that time, a good infected team working together is just as effective as they would be were the survivors to activate the lift.

I really don't see a problem here.

When my team switched to infected, they also knocked down the door but we still managed to tear them to shreds in the sewers, as we dealt a lot of damage while they were pounding down the door.

QUOTE FROM XBOX 360 Left 4 Dead MANUAL:


Crescendo events-
"At certain key areas in the game, you and your fellow Survivors will reach an impassable area that can only be breached by doing something attention-getting that will summon a horde of infected."

"These are called Crescendo Events. While they can't be avoided, the horde won't attack until you trigger the event. This lets you strategize beforehand, stocking up on ammo and diggimg in."


Bam. There you go. Straight from Valve's mouth. I'd like this to clear up other posts with statements along the lines of "I thought that Valve intentionally meant for this to happen." Come on guys, don't play that crap. I posted here because of the maturity in these forums. The first time you noticed somebody doing that (especially when playing as Infected, perhaps) you must have thought WTF or something else along those lines. Oh, and thanks to my little brother for that quote (he's got the 360 version).


@DerbyDriver - Sorry mate, but if there's two relatively, equally-good teams in play, then the Survivors won't have a problem at all to get through that shuttered-door. You mention a "couple" of Boomers to cause the Survivors some hell.

Again, no.

Firstly, if there's one person meleeing the shutter (just tested this), it takes between 30-35 seconds to break through the door. With two, that duration is halved. Imagine all 4 Survivors bashing the door :| A "couple" of Boomers won't even be available I'm afraid - you've only got one shot (Infected spawn every 30 seconds, in case you didn't know). However, suppose all of the Infected team die after an ambush against the Survivors when they leave the burger restaurant. They then rush straight towards the shutter and all bash it down, what, within a matter of 7-8 seconds? The result? No attack at all.

Still though, let's look at a scenario that supports your theory: only one Survivor smashing the door, for example. Every other Survivor is also watching his/her back - these aren't noobs that run off for no apparent reason - and your Infected team is choosing spawn points. The boomer manages to spew crap on all 4 Survivors then dies. A wave of horde starts coming.

The smoker/hunter are nearly useless in this scenario simply because the bunched-up Survivors are backed into a corner; easily one of the more effective defensive positions in L4D. Although this is VERY unlikely, given the comfy corner position, two hunters might successfully pounce two Survivors at the same time. With good players, the other one/two (if he stops meleeing the shutter) just quickly either shoot the hunter off at point-blank range (how can you miss?) or press that lovely mouse2 button. Don't even bother mentioning the Smoker; he might drag a Survivor a few bloody feet before mouse2 saves the day - again. The smoker then has to wait even longer for tongue recharge.

As for the horde of zombies, especially thanks to spamming mouse2 (which, by now you've guessed, I personally think quite severely drags the overall gameplay of L4D down), three Survivors can just continually "push the horde away" while the other guy keeps bashing that f'ing door.


The Survivors have broken through, gaining a wealthy advantage in the game. On the other hand, the Infected team is all dead, having dealt barely any damage at all to the Survivors.

I'd also just like to say that my above explanation most assuredly wouldn't even happen in the first place. This is simply because the Boomer can't spawn too close to the Survivors in relative safety (behind a solid wall, for example). Consequently, he has to walk quite a distance to get in bile range, all the while being completely exposed to Survivor sight and gunfire. A couple of easy shots and the fat guy is dead. If you don't believe this opinion, go to our mystery door and corner, and search for a good Boomer postion - you won't likely find one.

/shit, end long post

 

[Born]

Btw, hope everybody had a sweet Xmas xD

 

[Fiberawptic]

Sorry for the caps, but this is a pretty damn big issue.

Wow dude, its not that urgent, chill. Yea, its a fing wierd exploit and im puzzled by it. But its not like everyones L4D is crashing on startup, then we would have a serious problem. When you get to this part of the game, just say "oh well, back to attacking."

Hopefully all the exploits for crescendos will be fixed soon, and i dont have reason to doubt so.

 

[Parrot of doom]

Personally I'm more annoyed by that closet at the bottom of the lift in No Mercy. 4 people meleeing in there really annoys me.

 

[Scotchy]

The above quote does not really seal the issue at all. I don't know how much you know about the Hammer map editor or how Entities work in the game, but allow me to drop some basics on you:

Doors are indestructible by default. As soon as you make a door, it's settings do not allow you to destroy it... that is, unless you give that door hit-points in the properties dialogue. I submit that the door being destructible is entirely intentional on the part of the developers, and that it was likely left in for 'easter-eggs' sake (or as a little gift to players doing Expert mode campaigns for multiple achievements).

Another note, if that didn't convince you: The door breaks into pieces. That might not mean much to you if you (again) are not familiar with the rules of the Hammer editor and prop physics in the Source engine. In order for that door to break into roll-up door shaped pieces (as opposed to just 'poofing' or breaking into some standard group of throwaway debris models) a Valve modeler went through the trouble of not only building the door model, but the individual bits of debris that the door breaks into.

Ta-da! Intentional.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

The door was only meant to be breakable for a tank. A tank can bust out of that door hence the reason it only breaks with melee attack not guns, because it meant ONLY for the tank to bash though. The door being breakable is intentional but not by survivors. I don't get why people think that this is a legit way to skip a crescendo event. Crescendos are important parts of this game and by default you can't skip any of them without using exploits. So no i'm sorry but whenever i see people bashing their way though i class that as a lame cheat. That said i use the Hunter spawn exploit on them when they do that, that shows em.

 

[the cow says moo]

Lol, I just used the shutter exploit today. In fact, I also use the elevator exploit and some other ones every time I play and I'm going to keep doing it until they fix the problems.

PimpinPenguin beat me to it. The door is meant to be breakable for the infected, not the survivors. Maybe if they could somehow fix the door so only the survivors couldn't do damage to it.

 

[Headcrab Pie]

Supposed to be for the tank. Not for the Survivors.

 

[knut]

Yesterday I saw people using this 'glitch' for the first time in all my games of L4D. I didn't mind so much as we were destroying them left, right and center as Infected and it really didn't do them much good.

That's all I got.

 

[chimpmunk]

I think the "exploits" should be addressed by Valve in a statement to say whether they are intentional or not.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

I think the "exploits" should be addressed by Valve in a statement to say whether they are intentional or not.

This one doesn't need to be address by Valve if it's intentional or not. It's clearly not meant to be intentional if it was you'd be able to shot the door down. The door only being able to break via melee attacks proves it was meant for the infected only.Infected can only melee hence the reason the door is only breakable by melee attacks, the director could spawn a horde behind it and they would melee though or and tank can bust though it. Why can't people understand that this is not meant for survivors. You are NOT meant to skip cresendo events

 

[Born]

The above quote does not really seal the issue at all. I don't know how much you know about the Hammer map editor or how Entities work in the game, but allow me to drop some basics on you:

Doors are indestructible by default. As soon as you make a door, it's settings do not allow you to destroy it... that is, unless you give that door hit-points in the properties dialogue. I submit that the door being destructible is entirely intentional on the part of the developers, and that it was likely left in for 'easter-eggs' sake (or as a little gift to players doing Expert mode campaigns for multiple achievements).

Another note, if that didn't convince you: The door breaks into pieces. That might not mean much to you if you (again) are not familiar with the rules of the Hammer editor and prop physics in the Source engine. In order for that door to break into roll-up door shaped pieces (as opposed to just 'poofing' or breaking into some standard group of throwaway debris models) a Valve modeler went through the trouble of not only building the door model, but the individual bits of debris that the door breaks into.

Ta-da! Intentional.

As other people are saying, it's most likely that Valve provided this destructable door for the Tank to bust through. However, if you think that Valve intended to also allow the Survivors to break through, effectively skipping a whole crescendo event without any consequence whatsoever, then I'm sorry but you just fail. I've got the feeling that Valve aren't the kind of developers to allow players to 'skip' a big moment in the game, do you? Well, if you disagree... I just don't even know what to say to you mate.

 

[Born]

Also bearing in mind that by skipping the event, this tips the favour of the game towards the Survivors, upsetting the balance of the game. Yeah, Valve like the Survivors more so they decided to give them a little "easter egg" to help them move along/sarcasm. Just common bloody sense really.

 

[Sledgehammer]

I like how everyone seem to ignore the crescendo skips in the other campaigns.

On another note, the crescendos is what's really fun about the game. Say, would you skip a finale to jump straight to the rescue vehicle?

 

[AmishSlayer]

On another note, the crescendos is what's really fun about the game. Say, would you skip a finale to jump straight to the rescue vehicle?

I wouldn't, but people that just like to exploit to win would.

 

[Rico]

The crescendo skips are exploits as well... I believe someone somewhere mentioned that in the L4D manual for xbox360 it says that crescendo events are climactic events that cannot be skipped, meant to provide moments of intense action at certain measured parts of the map. The main thing it said though, was that they could NOT be skipped.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

I like how everyone seem to ignore the crescendo skips in the other campaigns.

On another note, the crescendos is what's really fun about the game. Say, would you skip a finale to jump straight to the rescue vehicle?

I know a few people who would. As long as they win they don't give a shit, winning comes before enjoyment and challenge. That's why i don't get why people use them myself, why skip the most challenging and satisfying parts? I love fighting an onslaught of zombies and the satisfaction of surviving them and winning is better than skipping them and winning.

 

[Scotchy]

Where are some people getting the idea that the door can only be broken by melee attacks? The first time I opened that door was with a stray pipebomb. The 'Health (Shoot open)' property of the door entity does not specify what kind of damage that a func_door will or will not recieve. Bullets, shoves, explosions, hurled concrete will all do damage to that entity.

While the current Hammer version in the SDK doesn't have an existing property to specify what sort of damage (or from whom) hurts a func_door or func_door_rotating; it shouldn't be a problem for Valve to either a)use the Input/Output system of entities to specify such, b) to rewrite the func_door entity, or c) create a new door entity specifically for l4d. That's conjectural on my part since I haven't had a look at the l4d maps in hammer (or any other out-of-game viewer).

Lets say that Valve honstly didn't want to let players (but not infected) break that door from the outside. I can think of a mighty simple (in the context of Souce level map-making) solution to that problem. Create a brush that surrounds the door model and texture it with a survivor_clip material (this material is again conjectural, but since an analogue exists already in the player_clip texture I will presume that l4d employs a more specific set of _clip textures). Tie the door entity (prop_dynamic or prop_physics probably) to a func_door entity. Make the clip brush a func_door as well, but without any hit-points (meaning indestructable). Use the I/O system to specify that the invisible/invincible 'door' will only open if the damageable door is opened from within the building. Once the regular door has been opened, I/O trigger the clip door to remain open forever (or until the map is reloaded). This would disallow players from coming in contact with the door entity and thereby damaging it. Infected would presumably not be affected by a (conjectural) survivor_clip brush and could destroy the door from either side.

Changing focus, let's take the crane bypass in Dead Air as another example. Those electrical boxes that you jump onto also have clipping surface (you can stand on them). A basic prop_detail entity (which is what most static models are) has no clipping surfaces; moving objects, including players will simply pass through it unhindered. Standard mapping practice to add meshes into a map that the players do not interact with (meaning you only see them, you don't need to come into contact or shoot or really pay attention to them) is to create them as prop_detail entities (as opposed to the many other prop_* entity types). I think we can agree that some electrical boxes stuck to the side of a building where the players would never be (other than while falling off of the building) are perfectly suited for the non-colliding prop_detail entity. Valve, however did not seem to think so. They made it so that a player can stand on these boxes, even so that they could jump up from these boxes and onto the roof above and thereby bypass the dumpster lowering sequence. They made it so that you could get on top of the fence surrounding the crane and jump right to those boxes with very little effort or skill (though you will need green health). That too is easily preventable with a little more use of my survivor_clip or really just a plain old player_clip that makes the top of the fence either invisibly walled at the top or just makes the invisible fence-top surface too hard to walk/run on (like making the clip mesh come to a point along the top of the fence so that the players would slide off either side).

There are other points to be made about other event skipping methods and path altering methods, but I'm really getting wordy here. What I really mean by all of this is that Valve are professionals. They made this game, this engine, and the tools that we use to modify their games. If I, a Hammer tinkerer, a man with no released maps or Source mods to his credit, can envision simple (and mostly default) methods to prevent or disable these so-called exploits, then don't you think that the developers themselves have already thought of them?

 

[Reflex]

Never noticed this.
:|

 

[el Chi]

I thought so too, I break that door down every time I play it.

Why? That bit's a boat-load of fun...

 

[Rico]

Where are some people getting the idea that the door can only be broken by melee attacks? The first time I opened that door was with a stray pipebomb. The 'Health (Shoot open)' property of the door entity does not specify what kind of damage that a func_door will or will not recieve. Bullets, shoves, explosions, hurled concrete will all do damage to that entity.

While the current Hammer version in the SDK doesn't have an existing property to specify what sort of damage (or from whom) hurts a func_door or func_door_rotating; it shouldn't be a problem for Valve to either a)use the Input/Output system of entities to specify such, b) to rewrite the func_door entity, or c) create a new door entity specifically for l4d. That's conjectural on my part since I haven't had a look at the l4d maps in hammer (or any other out-of-game viewer).

Lets say that Valve honstly didn't want to let players (but not infected) break that door from the outside. I can think of a mighty simple (in the context of Souce level map-making) solution to that problem. Create a brush that surrounds the door model and texture it with a survivor_clip material (this material is again conjectural, but since an analogue exists already in the player_clip texture I will presume that l4d employs a more specific set of _clip textures). Tie the door entity (prop_dynamic or prop_physics probably) to a func_door entity. Make the clip brush a func_door as well, but without any hit-points (meaning indestructable). Use the I/O system to specify that the invisible/invincible 'door' will only open if the damageable door is opened from within the building. Once the regular door has been opened, I/O trigger the clip door to remain open forever (or until the map is reloaded). This would disallow players from coming in contact with the door entity and thereby damaging it. Infected would presumably not be affected by a (conjectural) survivor_clip brush and could destroy the door from either side.

Changing focus, let's take the crane bypass in Dead Air as another example. Those electrical boxes that you jump onto also have clipping surface (you can stand on them). A basic prop_detail entity (which is what most static models are) has no clipping surfaces; moving objects, including players will simply pass through it unhindered. Standard mapping practice to add meshes into a map that the players do not interact with (meaning you only see them, you don't need to come into contact or shoot or really pay attention to them) is to create them as prop_detail entities (as opposed to the many other prop_* entity types). I think we can agree that some electrical boxes stuck to the side of a building where the players would never be (other than while falling off of the building) are perfectly suited for the non-colliding prop_detail entity. Valve, however did not seem to think so. They made it so that a player can stand on these boxes, even so that they could jump up from these boxes and onto the roof above and thereby bypass the dumpster lowering sequence. They made it so that you could get on top of the fence surrounding the crane and jump right to those boxes with very little effort or skill (though you will need green health). That too is easily preventable with a little more use of my survivor_clip or really just a plain old player_clip that makes the top of the fence either invisibly walled at the top or just makes the invisible fence-top surface too hard to walk/run on (like making the clip mesh come to a point along the top of the fence so that the players would slide off either side).

There are other points to be made about other event skipping methods and path altering methods, but I'm really getting wordy here. What I really mean by all of this is that Valve are professionals. They made this game, this engine, and the tools that we use to modify their games. If I, a Hammer tinkerer, a man with no released maps or Source mods to his credit, can envision simple (and mostly default) methods to prevent or disable these so-called exploits, then don't you think that the developers themselves have already thought of them?

The problem with all of this (good well reasoned post though) is that we have no details on how they developed the game. Valve is a good developer, but we are all human. Developers make mistakes. Couple that with the fact that most L4D maps are playable as both infected and survivor, and that the lack of clipping brushes could be due to the fact that maybe they wanted those areas to only be climbed by regular infected or special infected.

In addition to that, consider the other bugs/errors already present in the game. Obviously Valve has made some mistakes while making the game. A few:

- Infinite hunter exploit
- Quick Melee glitch/exploit
- Reloading while meleeing glitch
- Being able to play Dead Air and Death Toll on versus even though it's not listed as a VS map
- Etc.

I mean, some of these aren't huge glaring errors. Some are, it just means that they may miss some stuff every once in a while, some of it more apparent, some of it less apparent. What do you think the chances are that a playtester sat there a meleed a door 67 times? There are doors in places that take one hit, maybe 5, heck, even 10 melee hits. But 67? Seems like an awfully high number to be an "easter egg" as some people claim it is.

 

[Paulaner]

Every glitch will be fixed. All we need is: patience.

 

[the cow says moo]

Originally Posted by PimpinPenguin
That's why i don't get why people use them myself, why skip the most challenging and satisfying parts? I love fighting an onslaught of zombies and the satisfaction of surviving them and winning is better than skipping them and winning.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those guys who would skip a finale. That's one of the best parts of the game. I love fighting off hordes of zombies just as much as the next guy, it's just that I love laughing at the other team even more. Plus, by using this exploit, more people become aware of it and use it, there becomes a higher demand for Valve to fix it, and it (hopefully) gets fixed sooner. Sorry if my methods upset you.

 

[Sledgehammer]

it's just that I love laughing at the other team even more.

You have nothing to laugh at, rather, the other team has.

 

[Born]

Just a little word again, it seems now that in 90% of the games I play at least one person knows about this ****ing exploit. Ah well, if they don't listen to my words of telling them to stop, I just run over to the lift and press the button. Even this is ridiculous, but at least it's better than no Horde at all Hurry up with that update Valve! :x