19,000 Insurgents killed in Iraq since 2003

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I like this quote here, ["The information in the database is only as good as the information entered into it by operators on the ground at the time," Greenberger said. "Follow-up information to make corrections is done whenever possible."]

And this, [Today, U.S. commanders consider the number of enemy deaths a poor measure of progress in an insurgency and say there is no pressure to exaggerate. "The big difference is the command climate in Vietnam encouraged inflation," said T.X. Hammes, a retired Marine colonel and insurgency expert. "The general command climate (in Iraq) is: 'Don't exaggerate.' " ]

I like how USA Today reaffirms what most of us Live Leaker's have known since the death of, "the nethersite": Toe-to-toe engagements with Coalition Forces are completely suicidal (for obvious reasons of Firepower). However, something to note is just how influential and significant the former Al-Qaeda operative Abu Masab Al-Zarqwai was to the Iraqi Insurgency (even though he is not quite in the topic below): Bar none, the single most deadly and active period for the Insurgency and the Coalition Ground Forces was 2004; obviously the year when he was predominantly in charge. Although, he was also still around in 2005 ... but, there's something that doesn't quite connect here:

Maybe the idea of a civil war between Sunni and Shi'ite became a moderate distraction from the promises of a 2nd Calphate by Al-Qaeda ring leaders? Maybe thats why Zarqwai was visiting a, "spiritual leader" when he was killed? Advice? Trouble? This is a little far fetched to say, but IMHO, Bin Laden let information about Zarqwai fly. I think he wanted him dead; probably jealous of his martial prowess on the ground ... but, if you observe the statistics, one can reasonabley note his fall from power, just on the casualty figures alone.

But ... enough bantering or skeptics, here's the full thing below and found here.

19,000 insurgents killed in Iraq since '03

By Jim Michaels, USA TODAY

More than 19,000 militants have been killed in fighting with coalition forces since the insurgency began more than four years ago, according to military statistics released for the first time. The statistics show that 4,882 militants were killed in clashes with coalition forces this year, a 25% increase over all of last year.

The increase in enemy deaths this year reflects more aggressive tactics adopted by American forces and an additional 30,000 U.S. troops ordered by the White House this year.

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U.S. and Iraqi forces launched several large offensives aimed at crippling al-Qaeda since the arrival of more troops starting in February. The U.S. military says, however, there has been an increase in suicide attacks in recent days.

The size of the insurgency in Iraq has been difficult to measure and is fluid, making it hard to determine what impact the deaths have had on the insurgency in Iraq.

Last year, Gen. John Abizaid, then commander of military forces in the region, estimated the Sunni insurgency to be 10,000 to 20,000 fighters. He said the Shiite militia members were in the "low thousands." The U.S. military hasn't publicly provided any recent estimates.

There are 25,000 detainees in U.S. military custody in Iraq, according to the military. The numbers of enemy killed and detained would exceed the estimate given last year of the size of the insurgency.

Since the insurgency began after Baghdad fell in spring 2003, 19,429 militants have been killed in clashes with coalition forces, statistics show. The numbers do not include enemy killed during the invasion.

The statistics, provided at USA TODAY's request, were retrieved from a coalition database that tracks "significant acts." Militants are identified in the database because they are linked to "hostile action," said Capt. Michael Greenberger, a Freedom of Information Act officer in Baghdad. There is no way to independently verify the data.

"The information in the database is only as good as the information entered into it by operators on the ground at the time," Greenberger said. "Follow-up information to make corrections is done whenever possible."

The U.S. military rarely discusses the numbers of enemy dead, fearful of raising parallels with the Vietnam War when the U.S. military's reliance on "body counts" led to allegations of inflated figures because of political pressure to show results.

Today, U.S. commanders consider the number of enemy deaths a poor measure of progress in an insurgency and say there is no pressure to exaggerate. "The big difference is the command climate in Vietnam encouraged inflation," said T.X. Hammes, a retired Marine colonel and insurgency expert. "The general command climate (in Iraq) is: 'Don't exaggerate.' "

The military's new counterinsurgency manual emphasizes political and economic solutions to eliminate the conditions that breed militants. Those actions are considered more decisive than combat.

"You can't kill them all," Maj. Gen. Benjamin Mixon, commander of the American division responsible for northern Iraq, said in a recent interview.

The insurgency has been a mixture of Sunni groups, such as al-Qaeda, and Shiite militia extremists.

The enemy casualty numbers also reinforce the one-sided nature of battles on occasions when militants attempted to directly confront American forces.

The deadliest month for militants was August 2004 when thousands of militia fighters loyal to Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr clashed with American forces in Najaf in southern Iraq. That month, 1,623 militants were killed. The U.S. military lost 53 troops in fighting during the same time.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-09-26-insurgents_N.htm
 
Brilliant. These people are some of the most evil scum of the earth.

We must continue to fight fascism in all it's forms.
 
Brilliant. These people are some of the most evil scum of the earth.

We must continue to fight fascism in all it's forms.

did you go to south korea for a Numbers style re-education program?


how else would explain your total flip flop?

http://halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1824217&postcount=23



anyways reports as high as 1.2 million civilian casualties to kill 19,000 terrorists? they gotta do something about their dead terrorist to dead civilan ratio because that just screams epic fail
 
It's true to say that a death count, however realist, is a poor measure of success. Saying that 19,000 insurgents are dead means absolutely nothing. It pales compared to the extravagant civilian deaths, as Stern pointed out. And who are these insurgents? Aren't many of them actually created by the invasion? Their deaths could certainly have been avoided. After all, was the mission to kill 20, 000 people? No. The mission was to fix Iraq, bring peace in the middle east and make america safer. Well, guess what: Iraq's fucked, the middle east is more tumultous than ever, and america is probably in more danger than it was before. Fission mailed.
 
It's true to say that a death count, however realist, is a poor measure of success. Saying that 19,000 insurgents are dead means absolutely nothing. It pales compared to the extravagant civilian deaths, as Stern pointed out. And who are these insurgents? Aren't many of them actually created by the invasion? Their deaths could certainly have been avoided. After all, was the mission to kill 20, 000 people? No. The mission was to fix Iraq, bring peace in the middle east and make america safer. Well, guess what: Iraq's fucked, the middle east is more tumultous than ever, and america is probably in more danger than it was before. Fission mailed.

But wait! America hasn't been attacked again yet on home soil! That proves it's working!

/Bill O'reilly.
 

So, you are telling me that an average of 525.5 people have died a day since the war in Iraq began?

Take the number of civilian deaths "1,000,000" and divide it by the number of days the Iraq war has gone on (~1903 as of today +\- 1).
 
So, you are telling me that an average of 525.5 people have died a day since the war in Iraq began?
The initial war could easily account for two-thirds of that death toll. The combined no. of soldiers and civvies killed in the US strike are gruesomely high, I'd imagine.

Just for reference, 58000 British troops died in the Somme offensive (WW I) in a single day.
 
So, you are telling me that an average of 525.5 people have died a day since the war in Iraq began?

Take the number of civilian deaths "1,000,000" and divide it by the number of days the Iraq war has gone on (~1903 as of today +\- 1).

hey I didnt write the Lancet study ..here's their report ..read it, jot down notes and pester them why dont you ..but you wont because that would be too much like work


and while you're at it why not dispute the number of casualties from the rwandan genocide because the Lancet came up with that figure ..in fact beign a medical organisation devoted to studying large numbers of deaths they're uniquely qualified for it ..I mean NO ONE ever disputes the number of dead from say AIDS in africa ..just their projection from the Iraq war ..because they have an agenda to support


anyways now's your chance to make yourself known ..dispute the lancets study and publish your evidence, you're sure to get noticed
 
Glad to see Stern is steering clear of cheap tactics like ad hominem.
 
But wait! America hasn't been attacked again yet on home soil! That proves it's working!

We all know it's going to happen at some point -- Bush or no Bush. That's why I say dodge the fear bullet, keep the idea in the back of your head, and if you spot something thats obviously batshit insane, report it.

There's really no need for paranoia.

anyways reports as high as 1.2 million civilian casualties to kill 19,000 terrorists? they gotta do something about their dead terrorist to dead civilan ratio because that just screams epic fail

I'll readily admit that the figure for Civilian casualties as publish by the Lancet Medical Journal is a little difficult to swallow.

Yet, I will also agree to this: They DO need to work out their ratio.
 
We all know it's going to happen at some point -- Bush or no Bush. That's why I say dodge the fear bullet, keep the idea in the back of your head, and if you spot something thats obviously batshit insane, report it.

There's really no need for paranoia.

I wish more people were this sane.
 
hey I didnt write the Lancet study ..here's their report ..read it, jot down notes and pester them why dont you ..but you wont because that would be too much like work


and while you're at it why not dispute the number of casualties from the rwandan genocide because the Lancet came up with that figure ..in fact beign a medical organisation devoted to studying large numbers of deaths they're uniquely qualified for it ..I mean NO ONE ever disputes the number of dead from say AIDS in africa ..just their projection from the Iraq war ..because they have an agenda to support


anyways now's your chance to make yourself known ..dispute the lancets study and publish your evidence, you're sure to get noticed

I guess it was too much work to answer my question but instead you chose to steer around it.

And, since when were we talking about Rwanda? I am not even talking about that. Way to bring up even more stuff that is irrelevant. I have never even read up on that. Iraq is in the middle east, Rwanda is in Africa.

The UN, the UK Government, the Iraqi Government, the LA Times, and the Iraqi Body Count, have said that the Lancet count is extraordinarily high. And the project was funded by George Soros, who is, what else but an anti-war critic.
 
It's true to say that a death count, however realist, is a poor measure of success. Saying that 19,000 insurgents are dead means absolutely nothing. It pales compared to the extravagant civilian deaths, as Stern pointed out. And who are these insurgents? Aren't many of them actually created by the invasion? Their deaths could certainly have been avoided. After all, was the mission to kill 20, 000 people? No. The mission was to fix Iraq, bring peace in the middle east and make america safer. Well, guess what: Iraq's fucked, the middle east is more tumultous than ever, and america is probably in more danger than it was before. Fission mailed.

/thread
 
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