Canada exports SlutWalks to the US

[DEATHMASTER]

Guys...politics is that way

 

[Absinthe]

Sorry, now you're just offering up retarded statements to back up your claims. Rape and car theft are entirely not similar or equal in any way. I can't even begin to take anything you say on the matter seriously anymore after hearing this. You're like one of those people who equates homosexuality with pedophilia because in their eyes they're both sexual perversions when in fact they're nothing alike. Car theft is about property theft and vandalism, and is nothing like violent sexual crime inflicted by predators.

...Dear God, what is wrong with you.

I was never comparing the severity of the crimes. Who would read that part of my post and come away thinking I was serious? In fact, this is your whole problem. You have misread anything from your shame-worthy "opposition" and repeatedly, interpreted the worst subtext imaginable in every case. And what makes it worse is that I don't know if we're having a communication issue with terminology or if you're just being deliberate. That or you plug your ears and say "BUT MOST RAPE CASES ARE-", which is a fine, ****ing salient point except the bulk of this discussion has been about a particular kind of rape, not just rape in general. The statistics and studies have not invalidated anything. You could probably argue that the officer placed undue importance on what a woman wears, but you're denying its relevance entirely - One hundred percent, not even on the menu. And then to top it all off, you constantly drop gems such as this:

You can keep saying all you want how you're not blaming the women in any way, but that is exactly what you're doing and to say you're not placing one iota of blame on them is entirely disingenuous. Saying that she's putting herself at risk because she's disintegrating the willpower of the men around her, turning herself into a homing beacon.

Which is something I never said and just some bullshit you made up. Or this:

But you see, they're no different than any other ****ing person looking to have sex. They want to have sex consensually.

No shit, Raz. Nobody has ever disagreed with that or suggested otherwise. That you state this with such obviousness really gets my goat. Nobody has ever said "Yeah, those sluts were looking to get raped". And yet you repeat it over and ****ing over again. You are so committed to thinking that I and others believe that rape victims are deserving of their fates, that they were secretly "asking for it", or some other bullshit strawman. How do you qualify this crap? Even if we were to grant for the moment that choosing more conservative attire would have assuredly avoided rape, I don't hold victims accountable for the violent, irrational behaviors of others, at least not by any meaningful sense of the word. But divorced from all the emotional baggage that comes with rape, the cold hard truth is that there can be causal effects from how we decide to show ourselves to the world, and sometimes the consequences are very unfortunate. If that's blaming the victim, then so be it.
I'm sure turning me into a bad guy makes it very easy for you to come in here on a high horse, shake your head, and mourn the loss of enlightened thought on misogynistlife2.net (LOL THAT NEVER STOPS BEING FUNNY), but really you just look like a ****ing loon. And if I only respond to this part of your post, it is because enough time and effort has already been wasted trying to convey that to you. It is simply not worth it any more and I see no way to proceed from here. Honestly, everything else in this topic has become kinda secondary to me. I'm just fed up with your holier-than-thou ass.

 

[Raziaar]

...Dear God, what is wrong with you.

I was never comparing the severity of the crimes. Who would read that part of my post and come away thinking I was serious? In fact, this is your whole problem. You have misread anything from your shame-worthy "opposition" and repeatedly, interpreted the worst subtext imaginable in every case. And what makes it worse is that I don't know if we're having a communication issue with terminology or if you're just being deliberate. That or you plug your ears and say "BUT MOST RAPE CASES ARE-", which is a fine, ****ing salient point except the bulk of this discussion has been about a particular kind of rape, not just rape in general. The statistics and studies have not invalidated anything. You could probably argue that the officer placed undue importance on what a woman wears, but you're denying its relevance entirely - One hundred percent, not even on the menu. And then to top it all off, you constantly drop gems such as this:


Which is something I never said and just some bullshit you made up. Or this:


No shit, Raz. Nobody has ever disagreed with that or suggested otherwise. That you state this with such obviousness really gets my goat. Nobody has ever said "Yeah, those sluts were looking to get raped". And yet you repeat it over and ****ing over again. You are so committed to thinking that I and others believe that rape victims are deserving of their fates, that they were secretly "asking for it", or some other bullshit strawman. How do you qualify this crap? Even if we were to grant for the moment that choosing more conservative attire would have assuredly avoided rape, I don't hold victims accountable for the violent, irrational behaviors of others, at least not by any meaningful sense of the word. But divorced from all the emotional baggage that comes with rape, the cold hard truth is that there can be causal effects from how we decide to show ourselves to the world, and sometimes the consequences are very unfortunate. If that's blaming the victim, then so be it.
I'm sure turning me into a bad guy makes it very easy for you to come in here on a high horse, shake your head, and mourn the loss of enlightened thought on misogynistlife2.net (LOL THAT NEVER STOPS BEING FUNNY), but really you just look like a ****ing loon. And if I only respond to this part of your post, it is because enough time and effort has already been wasted trying to convey that to you. It is simply not worth it any more and I see no way to proceed from here. Honestly, everything else in this topic has become kinda secondary to me. I'm just fed up with your holier-than-thou ass.

No, what bothers me is that you keep saying that you're placing no blame on the victims and yet you keep on ****ing saying that they're wearing the clothes so they're putting themselves at risk.

What exactly have you offered besides your own opinion on the matter? What? Nothing. You've offered jack shit on why clothing makes the difference you say it does... and you've also failed to offer what clothing women should wear. Where's your guideline, where's your chart? What's your definition of slutty? Because let me assure you, 90% of women going out on dates and to bars do not dress like your average streetwalker. In my opinion, what they dress in is far sexier and more of an appeal. So how much should they change their outfits to give them the optimum level of sexiness and safety?

Come on Absinthe, give some ****ing answers instead of the bullshit vaguery you're offering. What about outfit A B C D and E attracts rapists more than outfits 1 2 3 4 and 5? Also please provide outfits X Y and Z that women can wear to achieve your optimum level of attractiveness and appeal without being rape bait. Really, I want to know! I want to know because you're offering such paramount wisdom on how exactly women can remain safe when it comes to their choice of fashion.

 

[Krynn72]

you keep saying that you're placing no blame on the victims and yet you keep on ****ing saying that they're wearing the clothes so they're putting themselves at risk..

I just punched my god damn monitor off my ****ing desk because I'm so angry at you for this.

 

[Raziaar]

I just punched my god damn monitor off my ****ing desk because I'm so angry at you for this.

How do you place zero blame on the victims if you're criticizing what they wear and assuming that if they dressed a little less slutty they wouldn't be as easily targeted.

HOW IS THAT NOT PLACING SOME BLAME?

And again, in the entirety of this thread there has been no example, no acceptable list of attire that a woman can wear to A: not be slutty and B: slip under the rapists radar.

EVERYTHING IS ****ING SUBJECTIVE when it comes to clothing. And you know what? Most of those women who are raped aren't dressed like a prostitute soliciting for sex.

I also find it infuriating that you guys keep ignoring the posts of the women who have posted in this thread. Their opinion doesn't automatically trump but they have some damn good insight on the situation coming from the mindset of a woman.

Really though, I'm going to refrain from posting in this thread anymore. Said everything I have to say a million times. Plus you guys are getting offended by what I'm saying, but honestly... that's exactly how you're coming across.

 

[Krynn72]

Finally, we get to the ****ing heart of the matter! Apparently there are two different interpretations of what risk and blame mean in this thread. How is being at higher risk the same thing as being to blame?

 

[Bad^Hat]

Yeah, this argument kind of devolved into pure semantics and finger pointing. I don't think there's any salvaging it now.

Honestly though, although I don't really share Raz's view on the content of what "the other side" is actually saying, I still don't think you have any authority to be saying it. I'm not trying to lump you all into one group since some of you seem to be implying pretty different things, but I don't think anyone has any business stating as "fact" what has been shown to be myth, both by studies and the only two actual female posters to bother chipping in (who were summarily ignored, but then the thread had already taken an ill turn when Kipling showed up). The fact remains that regardless of whether anyone is attributing blame, fault, responsibility - whatever accusatory terms you'd like to use - the act of disseminating this kind of information could be harmful in and of itself, and that should be taken seriously.

Raz already pointed out the many legal cases where victims were subjected to a share of the blame, or even denied justice, for "inviting" their attackers. I don't think for a second that anyone here sees that as acceptable, but that sort of thing is the ultimate destination for this kind of sentiment. Again, I'm not overestimating the scope of the community, and the actual effect is probably negligible, but that's not really any excuse not to take this sort of thing seriously (check me out guys this is my super serious face

). On the other hand, if wearing slutty/skimpy/promiscuous/however you'd like to categorize them outfits does have a pronounced effect, then it should be presented with facts and not just assertions. Until then, this thread, and the officer's comments, are completely pointless and unwarranted.

(Telling men "not to rape" is still kind of dumb, though.)

 

[Raziaar]

I'm going right to the extreme of the opposition is saying that women are inviting rape by dressing in certain ways. If the community members here don't actually believe that, then stand out of the way because I'm firing at the actual large percentage of the United States and Ireland/United Kingdom etc where polls have been taken indicating that people believe that women share the blame in cases of rape if a woman dresses a certain way, even so far as to use the terminology of inviting rape.

That mentality is absolutely widespread, so pardon me if it's difficult for me to make a completely and accurate identification of what part of the gradient you're on when you throw out vague statements that very much match those coming from the population as a whole that believes in this sort of thing.

The whole widespread perception that women are almost as much to blame for their own rape as the rapists themselves has permeated our culture and even the judicial systems of the world. It's wrong and it's awful.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...ape-victim-inviting-so-no-jail-116801578.html

A convicted rapist will not go to jail because a Manitoba judge says the victim sent signals that "sex was in the air" through her suggestive attire and flirtatious conduct on the night of the attack.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=16618

This one is an example of people who believe that simple flirting is a causation for blame in rape.

For instance, more than a quarter (26%) of those asked said that they thought a women was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, and more than one in five (22%) held the same view if a woman had had many sexual partners.

http://womensphere.wordpress.com/20...sexual-history-or-how-much-they-had-to-drink/

* More than 30% think a victim is some way responsible if she flirts with a man or fails to say no clearly.

* 10% of people think the victim is entirely at fault if she has had a number of sexual partners.

* 37% think a woman who flirts extensively is at least complicit, if not completely in the wrong, if she is the victim of a sex crime.

* One in three think a woman is either partly or fully to blame if she wears revealing clothes.

* 38% believe a woman must share some of the blame if she walks through a deserted area.

I'm gunning for those types of people and that's where the bulk of my ire and my passion regarding this subject come from, and the things I interpret in this thread sound very similar to things like this said. Especially since you guys still aren't clarifying exactly 100% where you stand on the issue. All I keep hearing is "women wears clothing she increases risk... woman shouldn't do that." without anything other than opinion backing it up... demonstrating the risk levels involved.

 

[lord_raken]

Those are horrifying numbers even if they are only semi-accurate. I definitely think this mindset needs to be changed, but from what I've heard and read, these "Slut Walks" are probably the worst way to go about changing that mindset, its right up there with putting all of them in Burkas. Yes it gets attention but it only reenforces the mindset that lead to this whole debacle.

I really don't think the issue is about the effect dress has on the likely hood of being rapped. Even if it DID have an effect, and there has been little evidence to support that, the fact is there are people out there who sexually assault and rape women. That is the big issue.

It it turns out that dressing provocatively does encourage assault then the advice to "tone it down" is actually good advice. (still need to see that evidence)

And to the women who take up this banner for the rights of women... don't. There are much classier ways to show your rights, confidence, and sexuality than dressing in attire that make you look like something 15 year olds google for (I'm thinking of the woman in stockings and a thong). You don't have to turn yourself into sexual object to be liberated. The founders of Feminism fought too hard to get away from that image for you to throw yourself back in. You don't see guys trying to "reclaim" their masculinity but holding "womanizer" or "Dick" marches.

I generally agree that western society is too straight-laced about sexuality and the human body, but there is a reasonable way to change society. "slut walks" will just cause controversy and divide the groups further while propagating an objectified view of women, and a base and materialist view of sexuality.

Note: While we are at it, the over sexualized gay pride parades (they exist) aren't helping either.

 

[kineaesth]

Note: While we are at it, the over sexualized gay pride parades (they exist) aren't helping either.

Thanks for being brave enough, the gays of the world were just waiting for your input.

Feel free to clarify what the **** you're talking about here. They're not helping?

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Finally, we get to the ****ing heart of the matter! Apparently there are two different interpretations of what risk and blame mean in this thread. How is being at higher risk the same thing as being to blame?

I like this post because it's short.

I think it's: if you're not smart enough to put yourself at less risk, it's you're fault.
While logically it doesn't hold up, I think it's a matter of disliking the uninformed (or "stupid").

 

[Eejit]

Bunch of cavemen up in here. Not gonna engage with the same idiocy again but I don't think they're the majority Raz, we're just silently facepalming.

 

[Solaris]

Can anyone disagree with these statements:

1: All of the moral blame in rape cases lies with the rapist themselves, none lies with the victim.
2: Men and Women can take certain practical steps to prevent themselves from being victims of rape, this can, on occasion, include how they dress.
3: Failure to take pro-active steps to prevent a person becoming a rape victim in no way diminishes the seriousness of the crime, or the burden of moral responsibility on the rapist,

 

[Remus]

Can anyone disagree with these statements:

2: Men and Women can take certain practical steps to prevent themselves from being victims of rape, this can, on occasion, include how they dress.

Yes, I can disagree with this.
I agree with Raz, there is no basis for the assumption that how you dress has any baring on the likelihood of you being raped.

The way I see it the only real practical step you can take is to learn self defence techniques.

 

[lord_raken]

Can anyone disagree with these statements:

1: All of the moral blame in rape cases lies with the rapist themselves, none lies with the victim.
2: Men and Women can take certain practical steps to prevent themselves from being victims of rape, this can, on occasion, include how they dress.
3: Failure to take pro-active steps to prevent a person becoming a rape victim in no way diminishes the seriousness of the crime, or the burden of moral responsibility on the rapist,

I can agree with that. It should not matter what a woman does, how she acts, or what she wears. She should be safe no matter what. However, the sad reality is that there are people out there who prey on others. Taking steps to prevent becoming a victim is prudent, but no doing so does not put the victim at fault. Its really not that difficult a concept.

Still haven't seen evidence about manner of dress being connected to rape.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I would just like to note this study, which claims:

Only 2% of participants described a sexual assault by a stranger. The majority of the women were assaulted by a steady dating partner (21.6%), a casual friend (16.5%), or an ex-boyfriend (12.2%)...the most common locations that participants described were the perpetrators' home (30.9%), the woman's home (26.6%), a home belonging to both of them (10.1%), a party (7.2%), a vehicle (7.2%), outdoors (3.6%), or a bar (2.2%).

If this study is to be taken as representative, the huge majority of rape cases involve a relationship over a period of time. That means that in all but 2% of cases, "don't dress slutty" means "never dress slutty" - "change the way you live your life in the long term due to the ever-present threat of sexual violent." Is this still reasonable advice for a police officer to give people, even though nobody in this thread has yet (to my knowledge) shown an empirical link between 'slutty' clothing and rape incidence?

I haven't wanted to post in this thread because I think there's so much to talk about it, but I really have to draw attention now to what is not being discussed.

Firstly, once again: I have not seen much evidence beyond supposition and prejudice and "obviously, clearly" that clothing is correlated beyond doubt with rape.

Secondly, only a very few people have discussed the harm such a claim could have. There is a case to be made that a police officer telling women not to dress slutty itself helps perpetuate the "imperfect world" schtick a lot of you are citing, which in turn justifies and normalises the expectation that women should be responsible for the violence committed against them. Surely the more you say "life sucks, slutty clothing is dangerous" the more you promote acceptance of that state of affairs. Especially if you are a representative of authority. Toaster, in her foul-mouthed but actually pretty reasonable post, mentioned this: that rape is the only violent crime in which the victim's behaviour is routinely questioned (it's actually the only violent crime in which the US justice system has been forced to make rules against putting the victim on trial) and one in which part of the trauma associated with victimhood is constant blaming and questioning of oneself. Given all that, how harmful might it be to continue upholding this stuff? Nobody has addressed this properly.

Thirdly, while clothing constitutes a broadly understandable 'code' about which assumptions can be made across individuals, what constitutes 'slutty' is extremely subjective. Women in this thread have already said, as many others have said to me personally, that men tend to choose to interpret their clothing however they like and that definitions of what is slutty and what is not slutty seem to be at the mercy of the moment. It would appear to be a frequent experience for women that men assume their very presence - their being out of doors at all - is an invitation. So telling women not to dress slutty would not be remotely helpful even if there was any link between clothing and rape incidence, because all it would do is put the women there in a position of having to worry about whether what they're wearing without actually knowing what the boundaries are (because there are no boundaries that cannot be moved: it's just patriarchy and bullshit). Also, sometimes it's summer. Also, women are consistently expected by the rest of society to make themselves physically attractive and to not wear prim and uptight clothing. That's quite a double bind.

Fourth, as indicated above, the women that have posted in this thread have been generally ignored. It might be worth according some importance to their voices.

Fifth and finally: what does it mean to be a 'slut'? It's an absolute bullshit word. It simply attaches a huge helping of moral judgement to completely morally neutral actions. The behaviours associated with 'slut' are those of promiscuity, sexual openness, and 'easyness', but there is nothing immoral about any of these qualities. You could try and claim that to be a 'slut' means to act unethically towards those you sleep with (i.e. acting without due regard for their feelings, being dishonest with them, etc) but those qualities have nothing to do with the way someone dresses and no necessary connection with the pure fact of their willingness to say yes. By saying the word slut you are effectively telling us fucking is bad. It is a misogynistic word to use. I don't know why it is repeatedly being employed in this thread with perfect seriousness.

That's why these marchers are trying to 'reclaim' the word slut as something that is not a victim-blaming insult-trying to remove all possible moral censure from it. 'Slut' should be one of those words which it is no longer possible to use in seriousness as an insult - like calling someone a blackguard or a monstrous turk.

 

[Solaris]

**** sake. I wrote a massive post describing a rape victim I met immediately post rape and hit backspace to delete a letter and it deleted the whole thing. Never mind, but rest assured it was a harrowing tale.

Anyway, I suppose for the majority of rape victims, dress has nothing to do with it. However if really wanted to reduce the number of rapes in the world, reforming the US prison system would be the best place to start. But for some reason when it's men getting raped in prison it's 'funny'.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

"Stop having nice things or I'll have to rob you."

Makes sense to me.

Pillage and Rape, no matter how much we ignore the fact, its the Human mentality. Some people are just better than others at holding back the urge

 

[ríomhaire]

That's why these marchers are trying to 'reclaim' the word slut as something that is not a victim-blaming insult-trying to remove all possible moral censure from it. 'Slut' should be one of those words which it is no longer possible to use in seriousness as an insult - like calling someone a blackguard or a monstrous turk.

Sulk how is it you usually manage to have the best post in every thread? BTW, do you mention blackguard to do with race? I'm reasonably sure it never had anything to do with black people.

Pillage and Rape, no matter how much we ignore the fact, its the Human mentality. Some people are just better than others at holding back the urge

I do not have this urge.

 

[Vegeta897]

I do not have this urge.

Clearly you're not a man.

 

[Krynn72]

like calling someone a blackguard or a monstrous turk.

Watch your ****ing language mister.

I agree with the first part of your post, but disagree with your secondly, and only sort-of agree with your thirdly fourthly and fithy and finally points.

I don't believe that perpetuating a "imperfect world schtick" simultaneously justifies or normalized blame on the victim. I don't think being realistic by saying mankind is imperfect means you're complacent with that fact, let along that you're promoting it. Suggesting as you do would mean that when I avoid certain parts of Hartford due to increased risk of getting mugged means I'm all for people getting mugged in those areas. That makes no sense and requires more than a leap to get to such a conclusion.

For your third point, slutty clothing is subjective to a point. I gave an example earlier in this thread that I can't remember anymore, but it basically said that just because there is no absolute truth to what defines slutty or uptight, doesn't mean there are no cases where it someone's dress IS slutty or uptight. There is a spectrum and just because it gets hazier as we get towards the middle doesn't mean that we can't distinguish between the outer levels. It is very subjective, sure, but there are plenty of instances where dress will be considered slutty to a large majority, and its that range that people in this thread are suggesting should be avoided.

To your fourth point, yes they should be accorded some importance, but basically they just rehashed arguments already made, and their arguments were addressed as a collective with the others.

Lastly, I can't speak for anyone else, but I never took the word slut as to having any moral implications. Its always held two meanings for me. The first being a descriptor for a woman who has lots of sex with lots of people, which I don't think is immoral just as you said. The other meaning being an insult, which just comes from the fact that the person you're insulting finds the being labeled as one offensive. Thats no different than calling a homophobic redneck a homo to insult him. Just because a word is insulting to people doesn't mean it bears moral judgments.

Which, I guess, is why I find the whole "taking back the word slut" thing so stupid. But I guess if the word carries a moral implication to most other people then I don't have much say in the matter.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Calling a homophobic person a homo, while funny, would totally be playing their game and implying that the mere fact of homosexuality, when pointed out, constitutes an insult. 'Slut' is similar - and is used pretty frequently as a vicious hurtful comment. That it happens to be so frequently used in connection with rape is no coincidence.

Noting that the world is not just need not always endorse that injustice, but rape is an area where people are acutely suspicious of victims. Nobody would ever imply that because you walked through a dangerous neighbourhood you wanted to get mugged. Nobody would ever claim that because you've been very generous to your friends in the past - giving one your old phone when you no longer needed it and offering another $30 with a cheery face - you are therefore somehow less of a victim. The mugging is less likely to impose on you so acute a mental trauma, that mental trauma is very unlikely to involve you repeatedly questioning your own behaviour, and the reaction of people around you is likely to be sympathetic rather than in any way hostile. Furthermore, nobody makes unwarranted moral and sexual assumptions about people who walk through poor areas (or if that happens it is to a far lesser extent).

In short, the culture around rape ensures that there is no easy equivalent to what that police officer said, and that we must be extra-careful not to perpetrate very vile assumptions - especially when the actual value of our advice turns out to be far lower than the outrage it provokes.

And sure, we can identify some characteristic of 'provocative' dress that all could perhaps agree on, but 'sluttiness' is so ill-defined, so linked with moral and sexual judgement, and so subject to what the person wielding the word or judgement might actually want - even what they might sexually want right now (which is a powerful influence) - that it is entirely useless as a workable risk factor. Advice to the public needs to be clear, reliable, certain and easy to remember and deploy. When women who wear light clothes in summer are told they're dressing like they want to fuck, all "don't dress slutty" does is put everyone one edge and muddy the waters rather than help anyone out in the slightest.

Once again, to be useful in the majority of cases, that advice as far as I can see would actually mean "don't ever dress slutty in your ordinary life."
And based on KiplingsCat's experience, we might easily conclude that women are putting themselves at risk whenever they dress like any of the women they see every day in magazines, movies, adverts, fashion shoots, awards ceremonies or beauty product packaging.

These are things pretty strongly pointed out by the resident grrls. Their points are not easily conflated with those of others: Toaster originally raised the point about dangerous contributions to victim-blaming culture, and you've just responded to my repetition of it; amidst Absinthe and Raziaar's tussle nobody has picked up on Kipling's account of the brutal subjectivity of 'sluttiness' in particular - something men are not well positioned to even notice.

The officer's advice in this case wasn't helpful. It wasn't clear. It wasn't relevant to the reality of how and why most rapes happen. It wasn't fair if applied to the majority of cases. It wasn't (as far as we can tell) based on any rational consideration of the actual problem; it was just groundless supposition from a perspective of privileged ignorance, endorsing and sustaining myths rather than engaging and tackling truth, offering harmful cliches in the place of utility and fallacious 'common sense' in place of reason.

 

[CptStern]

sulkdodds (and kiplingscat) are one of the few people in this thread to weigh the context of what was said with their own comments

On Jan. 24, Sanguinetti and another officer from 31 Division came to a York University safety forum at Osgoode.

Joey Hoffman, a residence fellow and member of the Osgoode student government, said only about 10 people attended but the room came to a stunned silence when the officer interrupted the more senior officer and made the reference to “sluts”.

“You know, I think we’re beating around the bush here,” the officer said, according to Hoffman. “I’ve been told I’m not supposed to say this, however, women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.”

The senior officer was silent for a moment and then picked up the presentation.

“I don’t think he was sarcastic or malicious. I think he thought he was being helpful,” Hoffman said.

his meaning was pretty clear. also it was said at Osgoode Hall which one of the premiere lawyer schools in the country

 

[Krynn72]

In short, the culture around rape ensures that there is no easy equivalent to what that police officer said

Perhaps I'm just out of touch with society on this aspect, because I certainly have not seen much of this culture. I've never met a person who would think that a victim was to blame. I mean, I've seen people saying shit like it before, but I see it less often than I see racist comments, less often than I see religious intolerance, less often a myriad of things. Not that such a way of thinking deserves any less attention in correcting, but I find it hard to get upset over perpetuating the shtick when its only happening when a very small minority misinterprets one's comments. Again, maybe its a bigger deal than I realize, but I've not seen this culture in action outside of a handful of news reports and the internet.

 

[ríomhaire]

Perhaps I'm just out of touch with society on this aspect, because I certainly have not seen much of this culture. I've never met a person who would think that a victim was to blame. I mean, I've seen people saying shit like it before, but I see it less often than I see racist comments, less often than I see religious intolerance, less often a myriad of things. Not that such a way of thinking deserves any less attention in correcting, but I find it hard to get upset over perpetuating the shtick when its only happening when a very small minority misinterprets one's comments. Again, maybe its a bigger deal than I realize, but I've not seen this culture in action outside of a handful of news reports and the internet.

Did you read the figures Raz cited?

 

[DEATHMASTER]

I think I figured it out. This thread is the culmination of all the discussion some members wanted to be having for a long time now but without going into that dang politics section.

 

[Krynn72]

Did you read the figures Raz cited?

Yes, but I find them lacking. I have trouble believing statistics in general because many of them use poorly defined terminology. In one of the studies its said that 29% of people think a woman who doesn't say "no clearly" is partially responsible. What exactly does "partially responsible" really entail? As evidenced by this very thread, theres some vastly differing takes on what that even means. I also hate when studies don't give a proper grading scale to questions like this, and only give you choices for an absolute 0%, middle, or absolute %100, so much for accurate measurements. Additionally, Raz quoted articles that used two different surveys, asking nearly identical questions, and which got results which vary well outside of the margin of error for either study. For example, one says:

"One in three think a woman is either partly or fully to blame if she wears revealing clothes."
While the other says 26% (20% partly, 6% fully to blame)

A difference between 33% to 26% is well outside the margin of error that a reputable study would find when studying the same population (I'm making an assumption here as I only have one of the actual documents, but both are done by UK programs). There a handful of other mismatched numbers between the two as well.

I also think telephone surveys are inherently flawed anyways.

Even disregarding all that, the results of the survey present a 'reality' that is a far cry from the "blame the victim first" mentality that is supposedly held by such a large enough portion of the world to hold such a rally. I don't think that when people check off "partially responsible" people mean that the victim should be the first to blame. If someone were to think that way, I'd have wagered that they'd have checked the "fully responsible" box, since their first thought is that its the victim's fault. The number of people who check that box is pretty small, 6% of 1000 people when it comes to wearing slutty clothes apparently. This is another failure on the part of the study because this information could have been gleaned had the terminology been better. But to get back to my point, I think 6% of people having the "blame the victim first mentality" is hardly enough cause to start a rally of this magnitude. For the vast majority its just preaching to the choir. I think this would be especially true in Canada and the USA (less Muslims lololololol!).

 

[KiplingsCat]

The way I see it is, people are going to judge you all your life. This is something I realized early on into my childhood. I don't know if it's specific to me (my family are pretty weird), or to just women, or to everyone. Probably everyone though. Ever since I hit puberty and people began to see me as "responsible", almost every choice I've made, ever, has been open to some sort of comment, criticism or judgment by somebody, be it my peers, my relatives, my parents, my teachers....it's remarkable the things people will criticize you for that you had no idea were things that you could be criticized for! Also interesting to me is that a lot of these things were probably gender specific. Now I wouldn't say boys have it easier than girls in the least, and I'd love to know what their equivalent to all the things I've had slung at me are.

Things like, why do you only own two pairs of jeans? Why are all your friends boys? All the good little girls I know believe in God. It's not ladylike to open a door with your foot! You're cleaning up the spilled orange juice the wrong way! Why don't you eat more? Why aren't you eating your potatoes? Stop playing with your food (at 19 no less)! Why doesn't your waistline reflect the fact that you eat so little? My my, you are a busty young lady, aren't you? That skirt is too short. Those shoes are unsuitable. You are way too dressed up for this occasion. You are way too dressed down for this occasion. You don't keep your room very tidy, do you? Why don't you wear make-up? Why do you wear so much make-up? Your mother let you wear that? Your blouse is too small. Your hair is very short. Your hair is awfully long. Doing a Physics degree is no way to find a husband. You should give your boyfriend that slice of cake, he needs it more than you.

There comes a point where you just don't give a shit anymore. Where you realize that most of the advice you get is based on people's idea of what you should be according to them. The advice given by the officer is typical of that: there is a way women should be, and "sluts" do not conform to this. Therefore do not be a "slut". Thing is, while we have words like that launched in our direction a lot, I think that there are very few women who could give you a precise definition of that.

Now I could stand at my wardrobe the next time I'm dressing myself and spend a half an hour trying to guess what he was talking about so as to not do it and minimize by a tiny, minuscule amount my chances of getting raped by a certain subset of rapists who share my very particular interpretation of what kind of "slutty" he was talking about. I could never fly again because I'm afraid of dying in a plane crash. I could learn how to clean up spilled orange juice the "right" way. But in my opinion, living your life like that is not living at all. Because you can try your best, but sometimes bad things still happen to you. And unless you have a clear, direct, well defined way of making them not happen (like, for example, avoiding being crushed to death by not throwing yourself under a train), there's really nothing much you can do to avoid them besides be lucky.

In short: Don't try to make your life better or safer by being what other people think you should be, because that'll drive you crazy. Do what you think is best for yourself, and if that doesn't work, nobody should blame you for it.

 

[CptStern]

sounds like you had an overbearing mother. my parents are old school and catholic and they never nagged me to that point. oh sure there was the occasional "get a haircut" type comments but nowhere near as needling as what you experienced

 

[KiplingsCat]

sounds like you had an overbearing mother. my parents are old school and catholic and they never nagged me to that point. oh sure there was the occasional "get a haircut" type comments but nowhere near as needling as what you experienced

Not my mother so much as her family, actually...aunts, uncles, grandmother etc. And secondary school teachers. And one or two of those comments were from complete strangers. Although my mother is quite overbearing too in her own subtle way.

 

[CptStern]

I'm sure women get it a lot more than men do. those kind of comments towards men are more goal oriented:

"you'd find a girlfriend if you had a better haircut"

but they're almost always said by women. men just dont care that much about appearance that they'd comment on each other's looks

 

[KiplingsCat]

I've known some pretty pass-remarkable men too though. One friend of mine has a very specific idea about how everything should be and has no inhibitions whatsoever about letting me know when I deviate from that. (I generally smile and nod and have another glass of wine when he does this. With some people there is just no point in trying).

One finds, however, that this is kind of the norm. Again, I'm not sure if it's specifically experienced by women or not. But it seems to me like there's a whole lot of people out there who think that (within the confines of the law) there is a right way for a woman to behave and a wrong way, and that somehow they can use this information to help us. This is what needs to stop. I do not need it in my life.

Can't they see that judging women like that policeman did only serves to intensify the problem? That telling us not to be open about our sexuality if dressing like that is the way we choose to do it, only further reinforces the idea that we shouldn't be open about it? That such repressions of woman's expression have been contributions to how ****ed up things have been for women in the past and continue to be for some women today?

It's ok to find certain choices of dress distasteful. It's ok to not endorse it yourself. It's when people start treating such highly subjective opinions as fact, and imposing them on us, that problems like the one being discussed here arise.

 

[Schweppe]

Breaking News: Women in the Congo dress like sluts.

48 Rapes Per Hour, Boasts US Rape Board

Also, it's probably worth mentioning that they're black.

 

[Raziaar]

I'm sure women get it a lot more than men do. those kind of comments towards men are more goal oriented:

"you'd find a girlfriend if you had a better haircut"

but they're almost always said by women. men just dont care that much about appearance that they'd comment on each other's looks

I honestly hate society's expectation of male grooming when it comes to facial hair. I love the unkempt stubble look... but nobody in society does. They like baby asses, everywhere as smooth as a baby' ass. Thanks, you make me feel like I spew shit all day long.

 

[Raziaar]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...nteers-rape-violence_n_860718.html?ir=College

"Shortly after I left, the country director -- who never attempted to contact me after I was raped -- called a meeting of several women in my former volunteer group and told them, without my permission, what had happened to me," she said. "Then, he told them that rape was a woman’s fault and that I had caused what happened to me by being out alone after 5:00 PM

 

[CptStern]

the Congo has 1000+ incidents of rape every single day

I guess there must be a lot of women dressed like sluts in the Congo

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/12/world/africa/12congo.html?_r=1

 

[Sulkdodds]

A country that's suffered violent conflict for over a decade makes a poor point of comparison with first world nations in peacetime.

I don't think anyone would claim there are not extreme factors at work in that situation, and not even Yorick is claiming that clothing is the primary cause of rape.

 

[CptStern]

voodoo AND women who dress like sluts