Canada exports SlutWalks to the US

[Stigmata]

The distribution across age demographics is 80% of cases have victims under 30 years old. How does that suggest what you say it does?

Yeah I'm not sure where I got that, looking back on the thread. So instead of that, pretend I said that the fact that most rapes are inflicted upon people the rapist knows is what makes visual stimuli not a likely significant factor.

 

[Raziaar]

Those victims should not know people!

 

[morgs]

Seems like these 'SlutWalks' are happening here in NZ too.

 

[Stylo]

How you're dressed has exactly **** all to do with your likelihood of being raped. Eighty-year-old women get raped. Children get raped. Uni students who haven't bathed in three days and are wearing the same sweatpants as yesterday get raped.

Again, I wouldn't say it has **** all to do with your likelihood. Just because some rapists go for old ladies and children doesn't mean they all do. I'd say that it CAN increase risk in SOME cases. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with saying it. It's not like the statement advocates, agrees with or has a relaxed view on rape. Nor does it place specific blame on the victim for being raped.

There's this overreaction response to it that's "So you're saying rape is not a rapists fault??", "So you're saying showing flesh will get you immediately raped!?!", "So you're saying WE SHOULD ALL WEAR SHEETS FROM HEAD TO TOE!?!".

That's not what anybody is saying! It's still not that black and white as to say that either dressing a certain way gets you raped or doesn't. It depends on the situation and the perpetrator but it is a fact that some people with a mentality that leads them to commit rape can be spurred on by going for women whom THEY perceive as easy.

We can't all seriously be suggesting that every human being is perfect enough to not pre-judge in such a way? There are plenty (and I mean plenty) of people out there, both male and female, who will see a woman dressed a certain way and will think "slut". Now think about a guy capable of rape. He sees a lady, his first thought is "Wow, she looks easy, I bet I could get in her pants" so he tries it on and gets rejected. So for whatever reason, he gets angry, decides he's going to get what he wants and rapes her.

You have to take into account EVERYONE'S mentality. Shit-loads of people in society are going to judge women for how they dress. It's a fact, it happens. If you don't believe it, may you be released from your candy marshmallow bubble at some point. We can't all believe that just because we wouldn't judge a woman as an easy lay or 'slut' because of how she dresses that others wouldn't. Especially those who are capable of rape.

Rapists aren't a hive mind, they don't all just go for whatever is there are the time. Some people who end up raping another member of society don't specifically go out intending to. They just can't take the rejection and not having the feeling of power. Some of that comes from sharking on women whose pants they see as easy to get into.

Why do they think that? Because like it or not, there are social preconceptions, even in Western Culture, about the way people dress.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Gosh Stylo, suppose any harder and you might have a hypothetical aneurysm!

Edit: You know what, this post is just bugging the hell out of me, so quotes ahoy!

Again, I wouldn't say it has **** all to do with your likelihood. Just because some rapists go for old ladies and children doesn't mean they all do. I'd say that it CAN increase risk in SOME cases. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with saying it. It's not like the statement advocates, agrees with or has a relaxed view on rape. Nor does it place specific blame on the victim for being raped.

So basically all you're saying is "a certain subset of rapists like a certain subset of fashion." How enlightening!

The issue is not one of blame but of responsibility. When you place responsibility on the victim to limit the way they act or express themselves in order to avoid inflaming some hypothetical aggressor, you'd better have a pretty sound reason for doing so. Instead, we get analogies to things like properly securing your house in case a burglar decides it's fair game - except that's a practical solution to a much more preventable offense. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just that you should probably have more than conjecture to back up your argument before you go asserting things about rape avoidance.

There's this overreaction response to it that's "So you're saying rape is not a rapists fault??", "So you're saying showing flesh will get you immediately raped!?!", "So you're saying WE SHOULD ALL WEAR SHEETS FROM HEAD TO TOE!?!".

Sure there is, but not in the post you quoted.

That's not what anybody is saying! It's still not that black and white as to say that either dressing a certain way gets you raped or doesn't. It depends on the situation and the perpetrator but it is a fact that some people with a mentality that leads them to commit rape can be spurred on by going for women whom THEY perceive as easy.

Well, as long as you're dealing in facts.

We can't all seriously be suggesting that every human being is perfect enough to not pre-judge in such a way? There are plenty (and I mean plenty) of people out there, both male and female, who will see a woman dressed a certain way and will think "slut". Now think about a guy capable of rape. He sees a lady, his first thought is "Wow, she looks easy, I bet I could get in her pants" so he tries it on and gets rejected. So for whatever reason, he gets angry, decides he's going to get what he wants and rapes her.

Excluding the instances where this exact scenario could occur to women in any other state of dress, you're absolutely right!

I think a crucial factor is being somewhat ignored here: opportunity. In the rape fantasy land you've concocted for this example, the man is rejected, decides he will rape his rejectee, and as sure as that, does so. I do not think rape happens like you think it happens.

You have to take into account EVERYONE'S mentality.

Should they? Should the victims? Because I mean, that would be kind of a batshit crazy thing to expect, don't you think?

Shit-loads of people in society are going to judge women for how they dress. It's a fact, it happens. If you don't believe it, may you be released from your candy marshmallow bubble at some point. We can't all believe that just because we wouldn't judge a woman as an easy lay or 'slut' because of how she dresses that others wouldn't. Especially those who are capable of rape.

I don't think anyone is suggesting they aren't judged, just that they shouldn't be. However, there is a bit of a chasm between judging in the sense of "she looks like she's up for it" and "she's not but penis says yes so OVERRULED."

Rapists aren't a hive mind, they don't all just go for whatever is there are the time. Some people who end up raping another member of society don't specifically go out intending to. They just can't take the rejection and not having the feeling of power. Some of that comes from sharking on women whose pants they see as easy to get into.

Why do they think that? Because like it or not, there are social preconceptions, even in Western Culture, about the way people dress.

So let's all change those preconceptions by advocating that women shouldn't dress that way! WHAT A ****ING BRILLIANT SOLUTION.

 

[Yuri]

Hey whoa now. I'm all for completely ****ing up a paraphrase, but I think you're taking it a bit far.

yeah, i was making fun of your weak ass metaphorical comparison that made just about that much sense. equating KKK uniforms to wearing revealing clothing gave me the following reaction: :rolling: sorry im the only person in this thread that's gonna call out your manifesto as kind of dumb.

just as a reminder to why some people might be up in arms

it kind of is the victim's fault, too

no. it isn't. and no, the officer was way out of line for making a comment like that. and yes, this sort of protest is apparently necessary considering the general consensus on the issue.

 

[Stigmata]

It's only the victim's "fault" in the sense that the playing-out of events in physical space is predetermined by the preceding actions of those involved. If I just up and shot someone on the street today, it'd be their "fault" too, for hitting the Snooze button one too many times, or choosing not to stop and tie their shoelaces seconds before I decide to shoot the next person who crosses my gaze. But I'd be the one who shot, and all the possibility of suffering is rooted in my decision to shoot.

 

[Stylo]

So basically all you're saying is "a certain subset of rapists like a certain subset of fashion." How enlightening

It factors into the point so, yes. Judging by some of the posts in here you'd think people didn't know.

The issue is not one of blame but of responsibility. When you place responsibility on the victim to limit the way they act or express themselves in order to avoid inflaming some hypothetical aggressor, you'd better have a pretty sound reason for doing so. Instead, we get analogies to things like properly securing your house in case a burglar decides it's fair game - except that's a practical solution to a much more preventable offense. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, just that you should probably have more than conjecture to back up your argument before you go asserting things about rape avoidance.

No, no, no. Nobody's trying to limit anything. There we go again, missing the point. It's about BEING AWARE. As much as it might have originally been worded terribly by an officer, I think the point he was making was a "Be aware and stay safe point" not a "You're definitely getting raped tonight dressed like that and it's entirely your responsibilty" point.

Sure there is, but not in the post you quoted.

I was just expanding on the wider point after addressing the quote I posted.

Well, as long as you're dealing in facts.

Yup.

Excluding the instances where this exact scenario could occur to women in any other state of dress, you're absolutely right!

Nobody's saying it couldn't. I think the officer and the other people floating similar things around were dealing with the specific issue of flaunting it, though.

I think a crucial factor is being somewhat ignored here: opportunity. In the rape fantasy land you've concocted for this example, the man is rejected, decides he will rape his rejectee, and as sure as that, does so. I do not think rape happens like you think it happens.

Less a fantasy, more a single example of possibility in an attempt to highlight a point. But do tell me how rape happens in every situation with every perpetrator's psychological profile included being as you're obviously more of an expert than I.

Should they? Should the victims? Because I mean, that would be kind of a batshit crazy thing to expect, don't you think?

Like I've said, it's not a case that people should live in constant fear of being raped if they choose to dress a certain way. It's just that the awareness is important. The times people most likely dress in the manner currently being referred to as 'slutty' is when they go out on the town, late at night, the alcohol's usually flowing, people are often on the prowl for potential hook-ups, bad things can happen.

It's not that much of a chore to just have some sort of sense and sensibility about you, to be a bit careful, is it?

I don't think anyone is suggesting they aren't judged, just that they shouldn't be. However, there is a bit of a chasm between judging in the sense of "she looks like she's up for it" and "she's not but penis says yes so OVERRULED."

A chasm for us, maybe.

So let's all change those preconceptions by advocating that women shouldn't dress that way! WHAT A ****ING BRILLIANT SOLUTION

Well that's just silly. No ones advocating that.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

She was just begging to get graped. I mean come on, look at that shirt, it's purple!

As for Saudi Arabia, rape is a lifestyle, it's accepted - to tally it by itself would be silly. In other words, no action against women may be defined as rape in a country which refuses to define rape.

They can't join the work force, appear in public or work any kind of job with males and are killed and raped every day as they are non-people (sub-human at least) to Saudi law / societal standards. Hilariously skewed statistic. The U.S. loves to line the pockets them damn Saudis, though.

God, what a horrible country.

 

[Stigmata]

She's just asking to be grip'n'sipped.

 

[Raziaar]

Yup.

No. You're not dealing in facts. Now provide some facts or shut up. What you're saying is that you know 100% that certain clothing = rape so now offer up some proof of that since you seem so damn confident. Post a study, post something other than your own opinion that you think trumps every god damn thing.

Just because you share your opinion with 60% of the populous about how it's very much the responsibility of the victim, doesn't mean it's not a wrong and retarded opinion to have.

If you look at every rape preventative organization out there, they explicitly state that clothing is not a factor and it's a widely held myth. Now you'd think that organizations attempting to steer women to be safer and more preventative against rape would suggest otherwise if what you were saying were actually the case.

 

[Krynn72]

What you're saying is that you know 100% that certain clothing = rape

you share your opinion with 60% of the populous about how it's very much the responsibility of the victim

Jesus ****ing christ. STILL?

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

personally, I can't help but have an uncontrollable urge to rape people who wear bowties

 

[Vegeta897]

For me it's an age thing. If you're under 12 you're just asking for it.

 

[Raziaar]

Jesus ****ing christ. STILL?

I shouldn't have left it so black and white. What I meant to say was that he knows that certain clothing = a potentially increased chance of rape, which every preventative organization out there(those in europe and in the states/canada) states exactly the opposite, and that statistically, it's not a factor at all. That doesn't mean always, but for the wide majority it's not a factor. Have you guys offered anything... ANYTHING at all that it's not just a myth?

 

[Stylo]

No. You're not dealing in facts. Now provide some facts or shut up. What you're saying is that you know 100% that certain clothing = rape so now offer up some proof of that since you seem so damn confident. Post a study, post something other than your own opinion that you think trumps every god damn thing.

Just because you share your opinion with 60% of the populous about how it's very much the responsibility of the victim, doesn't mean it's not a wrong and retarded opinion to have.

If you look at every rape preventative organization out there, they explicitly state that clothing is not a factor and it's a widely held myth. Now you'd think that organizations attempting to steer women to be safer and more preventative against rape would suggest otherwise if what you were saying were actually the case.

Well being as I studied this as part of Sociology in college, yup. Also, I'd like to know where you got those percentage statistics from, being as we're posting studies now.

My opinion trumps everything? See, that's just getting personal and that's not called for so don't start raging.

I'm not going to paragraph war with anyone else. If you have to believe that there is a solid right view and solid wrong view and that yours is the right one, that's fine.

As for everyone trying to prevent rape agreeing with you, here's a random page about understanding and preventing rape: http://www.backlash.com/book/rape6.html

Women who wear clothes that exentuate their female attributes are bypassing men's civilized veneer to communicate directly to the male libido. Usually, no harm is done because most men have discipline. But some things, like alcohol or women's provocative behaviors, can erode men's resistance. And sometimes that can lead to rape.

Which is what I said. Sigh. But anyway, yeah. Whatever you say.

 

[Raziaar]

Well being as I studied this as part of Sociology in college, yup. Also, I'd like to know where you got those percentage statistics from, being as we're posting studies now.

My opinion trumps everything? See, that's just getting personal and that's not called for so don't start raging.

I'm not going to paragraph war with anyone else. If you have to believe that there is a solid right view and solid wrong view and that yours is the right one, that's fine.

As for everyone trying to prevent rape agreeing with you, here's a random page about understanding and preventing rape: http://www.backlash.com/book/rape6.html

Which is what I said. Sigh. But anyway, yeah. Whatever you say.

Excerpts from a book written by a conservative male about rape? That's all you could find to support your claims? A misogynist who abhors femists?

Let me just help you out a little bit with your link... and we can see what kind of absolute ****ing idiocy this guy offers.

What if the tables were turned? There are many colognes for men, for example, manufacturers claim are laced with the male pheromone that will "put women in the mood." Suppose a man bathed in it, and the instant he set foot outside his door, women from miles around rushed to ravish him. Would they be guilty of rape? Or would they be innocent by reason of drug-induced insanity?

Is this really an argument he's presenting forth? Axe ****ing Body Spray?

Women who wear clothes that exentuate their female attributes are bypassing men's civilized veneer to communicate directly to the male libido. Usually, no harm is done because most men have discipline. But somethings, like alcohol or women's provocative behaviors, can erode men's resistance. And sometimes that can lead to rape.

He's basically blaming women for eroding men's resistance by dressing in a way that communicates to the male libido. What in the ****ing hell? So where do you end with this? Do you know how many common every day outfits can "communicate to the male libido" that are not trampy at all? Placing blame on the women for the lack of male willpower.

Women have their price, and whether in marriage or prostitution, men usually have to pay. The going price of women in the modern "meat market" is determined by how much the average guy must earn before women will start taking the initiative, approaching him, asking for dates and sexual affection. This is the base average dollar value women place on their love and sex.

During the past several years, women's expectations have risen in step with advertisements in everything from Ms. magazine during the 70s and 80s to Cosmopolitan. But Mr. Average is still making an average wage, and reported rapes are on the increase. (Backlash, Susan Faludi, p xvii) Are women's rising expectations causing this?

When prices (female expectations) rise to the point where a significant number of men cannot afford the ticket to women's hearts, the incidence of rape increases, too:

I cannot ****ing believe I'm reading this stupid shit you offered up. Sorry ladies, you better make yourself more available to men and lower your standards or you're gonna get raped. So now it's not just about clothing, it's about women not making themselves available and "cheap" enough for men.

Consequently, to the extent women objectify men as success objects, they contribute to the problem of rape.

Oh, so now it's not only the fault of the women that they objectify themselves as sex objects, but now because they objectify men as success objects. Because women want to date men who are successful, they're only causing themselves an increase in rape victimization chances. Shame on you women!

<sigh>

Did you even read your link? That link is going way more hardcore on blaming women for rape than you are, and yet you're trying to declare yourself as "not blaming women".



http://www.iup.edu/page.aspx?id=44097

Rape can and does strike anyone at anytime. Age, social class, and/or ethnic group have no bearing on the person a rapist chooses to attack. Research data clearly proves that a way a woman dresses and/or acts does not influence the rapist’s choice of victims. The decision to rape is based on how easily the rapist thinks the target can be intimidated. Rapists are looking for available and vulnerable targets. Women are not raped because they “put themselves in a dangerous situation,” as is so frequently stated, or because they wore certain clothes, or because they followed a particular lifestyle. These aspects are highlighted only to further blame the victim and excuse the violent behavior of the aggressor.

The FBI has a study out there... I've been trying to find the actual study itself to post up. But it's along the same lines that clothing and behavior of the women has little influence on rape statistics.

 

[Sulkdodds]

To be fair, Stylo was citing that as an example of someone 'trying to prevent rape' who disagreed with you.

But also to be fair, that is the most hilarious load of nonsense I've encountered in a while.

And to be scrupulously fair, I suspect that such abhorrently entitled views views, regardless of intention, contribute to attitudes which do anything but prevent rape.

 

[Raziaar]

To be fair, Stylo was citing that as an example of someone 'trying to prevent rape' who disagreed with you.

But also to be fair, that is the most hilarious load of nonsense I've encountered in a while.

And to be scrupulously fair, I suspect that such abhorrently entitled views views, regardless of intention, contribute to attitudes which do anything but prevent rape.

I was talking about actual non-profit organizations dedicated to the prevention of rape... not misogynists who know how to write and post on the internet. Everyone knows those types of individuals abound on the internet, and posting that does nothing to help his cause. I already know there are people who are under the guise of "trying to prevent rape" offering up the same stuff shown in this thread by the opposite side... but I'm here saying those sorts of views are absolute idiocy.

And good god, it's so ****ing hard to find that federal commission. How in the **** do you search for documents like that.

So really I can only find right now the myth lists they have which are carried by all sorts of organizations and even those on a federal level... which i'm not 100% satisfied with right now, but still more than the other side is offering up.

Ones like this.

http://davismaar.org/myth.htm

Myth #1: Victims provoke sexual assaults when they dress provocatively or act in a promiscuous manner.

Fact: Rape and sexual assault are crimes of violence and control that stem from a person's determination to exercise power over another. Neither provocative dress nor promiscuous behavior are invitations for unwanted sexual activity. Forcing someone to engage in non-consensual sexual activity is sexual assault, regardless of the way that person dresses or acts.

Myth #2: If a person goes to someone's room or house or goes to a bar, she assumes the risk of sexual assault. If something happens later, she can't claim that she was raped or sexually assaulted because she should have known not to go to those places.

Fact: This "assumption of risk" wrongfully places the responsibility of the offender's actions with the victim. Even if a person went voluntarily to someone's residence or room and consented to engage in some sexual activity, it does not serve as a blanket consent for all sexual activity. If a person is unsure about whether the other person is comfortable with an elevated level of sexual activity, the person should stop and ask. When someone says "No" or "Stop", that means STOP. Sexual activity forced upon another without consent is sexual assault.

Myth #3: It's not sexual assault if it happens after drinking or taking drugs.

Fact: Being under the influence of alcohol or drugs is not an invitation for non-consensual sexual activity. A person under the influence of drugs or alcohol does not cause others to assault her; others choose to take advantage of the situation and sexually assault her because she is in a vulnerable position. Many state laws hold that a person who is cognitively impaired due to the influence of drugs or alcohol is not able to consent to sexual activity. The act of an offender who deliberately uses alcohol as a means to subdue someone in order to engage in non-consensual sexual activity is also criminal.

Myth #4: Most sexual assaults are committed by strangers. It's not rape if the people involved knew each other.

Fact: Most sexual assaults and rapes are committed by someone the victim knows. Among victims aged 18 to 29, two-thirds had a prior relationship with the offender(1). During 2000, about six in ten rape or sexual assault victims stated the offender was an intimate, other relative, a friend or an acquaintance(2). A study of sexual victimization of college women showed that most victims knew the person who sexually victimized them. For both completed and attempted rapes, about 9 in 10 offenders were known to the victim(3). Most often, a boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, classmate, friend, acquaintance, or co-worker sexually victimized the women(4). Sexual assault can be committed within any type of relationship, including in marriage, in dating relationships, or by friends, acquaintances or co-workers. Sexual assault can occur in heterosexual or same-gender relationships. It does not matter whether there is a current or past relationship between the victim and offender; unwanted sexual activity is still sexual assault and is a serious crime.

Myth #5: Rape can be avoided if women avoid dark alleys or other "dangerous" places where strangers might be hiding or lurking.

Fact: Rape and sexual assault can occur at any time, in many places, to anyone. According to a report based on FBI data, almost 70% of sexual assault reported to law enforcement occurred in the residence of the victim, the offender, or another individual(5). As pointed out above in Fact #4, many rapes are committed by people known to the victim. While prudent, avoiding dark alleys or "dangerous" places will not necessarily protect someone from being sexually assaulted.

Myth #7: All sexual assault victims will report the crime immediately to the police. If they do not report it or delay in reporting it, then they must have changed their minds after it happened, wanted revenge, or didn't want to look like they were sexually active.

Fact: There are many reasons why a sexual assault victim may not report the assault to the police. It is not easy to talk about being sexually assaulted. The experience of re-telling what happened may cause the person to relive the trauma. Other reasons for not immediately reporting the assault or not reporting it at all include fear of retaliation by the offender, fear of not being believed, fear of being blamed for the assault, fear of being "revictimized" if the case goes through the criminal justice system, belief that the offender will not be held accountable, wanting to forget the assault ever happened, not recognizing that what happened was sexual assault, shame, and/or shock. In fact, reporting a sexual assault incident to the police is the exception and not the norm. From 1993 to 1999, about 70% of rape and sexual assault crimes were not reported to the police(6). Because a person did not immediately report an assault or chooses not to report it at all does not mean that the assault did not happen.

Victims can report a sexual assault to criminal justice authorities at any time, whether it be immediately after the assault or within weeks, months, or even years after the assault. Criminal justice authorities can move forward with a criminal case, so long as the incident is reported within the jurisdiction's statute of limitations. Each state has different statutes of limitations that apply to the crimes of rape and sexual assault. Statutes of limitations provide for the time period in which criminal justice authorities can charge an individual with a crime for a particular incident. If you have any questions about your state's statute of limitations, you can call your local police department, prosecutor's office, local sexual assault victim services program, or state sexual assault coalition.

Myth #8: Only young, pretty women are assaulted.

Fact: The belief that only young, pretty women are sexually assaulted stems from the myth that sexual assault is based on sex and physical attraction. Sexual assault is a crime of power and control and offenders often choose people whom they perceive as most vulnerable to attack or over whom they believe they can assert power. Sexual assault victims come from all walks of life. They can range in age from the very old to the very young. Many victims of sexual violence are under 12. Sixty-seven percent of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were juveniles (under the age of 18); 34% of all victims were under age 12. One of every seven victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were under age 6.(7) Men and boys are sexually assaulted. Persons with disabilities are also sexually assaulted. Assumptions about the "typical" sexual assault victim may further isolate those victimized because they may feel they will not be believed if they do not share the characteristics of the stereotypical sexual assault victim.

Myth #9: It's only rape if the victim puts up a fight and resists.

Fact: Many states do not require a victim to resist in order to charge the offender with rape or sexual assault. In addition, there are many reasons why a victim of sexual assault would not fight or resist her attacker. She may feel that fighting or resisting will make her attacker angry, resulting in more severe injury. She may not fight or resist as a coping mechanism for dealing with the trauma of being sexually assaulted. Many law enforcement experts say that victims should trust their instincts and intuition and do what they think is most likely to keep them alive. Not fighting or resisting an attack does not equal consent. It may mean it was the best way she knew how to protect herself from further injury.

Myth #10: Someone can only be sexually assaulted if a weapon was involved.

Fact: In many cases of sexual assault, a weapon is not involved. The offender often uses physical strength, physical violence, intimidation, threats, or a combination of these tactics to overpower the victim. As pointed out in Fact #4, most sexual assaults are perpetrated by someone known to the victim. An offender often uses the victim's trust developed through their relationship to create an opportunity to commit the sexual assault. In addition, the offender may have intimate knowledge about the victim's life, such as where she lives, where she works, where she goes to school, or information about her family and friends. This enhances the credibility of any threats made by the offender since he has the knowledge about her life to carry them out. Although the presence of a weapon while committing the assault may result in a higher penalty or criminal charge, the absence of a weapon does not mean that the offender cannot be held criminally responsible for a sexual assault.

Myth #11: Rape is mostly an inter-racial crime.

Fact: The vast majority of violent crimes, which include sexual assaults and rapes, are intra-racial, meaning the victim and the offender are of the same race(8). This is not true, however, for rapes and sexual assaults committed against Native women. American Indian victims reported that approximately 8 in 10 rapes or sexual assaults were perpetrated by whites(9). Native women also experience a higher rate of sexual assault victimization than any other race(10).

67% of rape victims reported were under the age of 18. Is that because they're flaunting their femininity with their dress? Yes, younger girls are dressing more promiscuously but that is in no way a valid point to blame rape statistics on.


By the way, the organizations offering out the information on the statistics and such are:

The FBI
The National Crime Survey
The National Victim Center
Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center
The Orange County Rape Crisis Center.


But they're full of shit regarding the issues? This really is one of those topics, and one of the only where I've felt this way, that really makes me hang my head low that all these members have the views they do.

 

[15357]

My 2 cents: People shouldn't dress like sluts, not to prevent rape, but rather to avoid looking like sluts.

 

[Raziaar]

My 2 cents: People shouldn't dress like sluts, not to prevent rape, but rather to avoid looking like sluts.

Something I agree with completely. Though my beliefs on that issue are completely separate from the subject of this thread.

 

[Krynn72]

That article was so full of contradictions and subject-changing that I wanted to vomit.

That said, I'm going to step on the other side of the fence now. While I still think that dressing like a skank increases risk by drawing attention, its looking more and more negligible as I read more information on rape in general. For one, drawing attention to yourself only applies when a person is looking for a random stranger to rape, and with ~70 of all rapes committed by someone the victim already knew, its a non-issue. Then, breaking down the remaining 30% into different scenarios, most of it is probably opportunistic, where a woman is alone and there is no crowd or group of other people to mitigate the chances of being targeted. So while I still feel that dressing skimpy increases your risk, it only does so in a small set of circumstances.


Slutwalks is still a stupid name for a thing and its still full of stupid people trying to accomplish a stupid goal ("taking back" the word slut). In addition, I still think everyone in this thread is stupid for not understanding the argument, and putting words in everyone's (except Yorick's) mouth.

 

[15357]

Yeah, the subject here seems to be "She was asking for it with how she was dressed blah blah blah"

which isn't such a good argument unless you want to go the whole "She was asking to be raped, being out of her house like that blah blah blah"

 

[Raziaar]

That article was so full of contradictions and subject-changing that I wanted to vomit.

That said, I'm going to step on the other side of the fence now. While I still think that dressing like a skank increases risk by drawing attention, its looking more and more negligible as I read more information on rape in general. For one, drawing attention to yourself only applies when a person is looking for a random stranger to rape, and with ~70 of all rapes committed by someone the victim already knew, its a non-issue. Then, breaking down the remaining 30% into different scenarios, most of it is probably opportunistic, where a woman is alone and there is no crowd or group of other people to mitigate the chances of being targeted. So while I still feel that dressing skimpy increases your risk, it only does so in a small set of circumstances.


Slutwalks is still a stupid name for a thing and its still full of stupid people trying to accomplish a stupid goal ("taking back" the word slut). In addition, I still think everyone in this thread is stupid for not understanding the argument, and putting words in everyone's (except Yorick's) mouth.

Well if you didn't dress like a dog you wouldn't have to eat those scraps I put in your mouth.

BAM! My first Krynn doggy joke, and a bad one at that.

 

[Krynn72]

Yeah, the subject here seems to be "She was asking for it with how she was dressed blah blah blah"

which isn't such a good argument unless you want to go the whole "She was asking to be raped, being out of her house like that blah blah blah"

No, that isn't the subject here, but people keep trying to pretend it is.

Well if you didn't dress like a dog you wouldn't have to eat those scraps I put in your mouth.

BAM! My first Krynn doggy joke, and a bad one at that.

FUUUUUCK. NOT YOU TOO RAZ! NOT YOUUUUUUUU! *kills self*

 

[Bad^Hat]

No Krynn! Put down the chocolate biscuit, it's not worth it!

It factors into the point so, yes. Judging by some of the posts in here you'd think people didn't know.

Again with the "knowing." You're pretty good at that!!

My point wasn't that it isn't a factor, my point was that you haven't - and probably can't - show that it's a significant one, and are therefore essentially telling people to "be aware" of something that's perhaps not all that likely to actually help.

No, no, no. Nobody's trying to limit anything. There we go again, missing the point. It's about BEING AWARE.

What's the difference? You're very clearly trying to make the point that dressing provocatively increases your chance of being attacked in certain scenarios, so by extension should the woman not limit her fashion choices in those situations? Or are you merely saying that, should they choose to dress that way, they should be aware of the risks and not act in a way that leaves them open to attack? If the latter, why not apply this to all scenarios regardless of state of dress and leave out the possibly meaningless proposition that fashion has a direct correlation with rape?

Toaster's post has been largely ignored, but she made a good point that no one seems to have absorbed - victims of these attacks are already prone to blaming themselves. Regardless of whether you're actually saying it's their responsibility to act in a certain way, could it not be construed that way? If so, could you not just be playing into their self-accusatory "what if" mentality?

And no, before I'm accused of such, I'm not trying to overstate the scope of our little corner of the internet. Just saying, you're setting a potentially incorrect and harmful precedent, and that should be treated with a modicum of seriousness.

Less a fantasy, more a single example of possibility in an attempt to highlight a point. But do tell me how rape happens in every situation with every perpetrator's psychological profile included being as you're obviously more of an expert than I.

It's all right here in my Little Golden Book of Rapes!

Again, you can highlight specific examples all you like, you're still not saying jack shit about the actual likelihood.

Like I've said, it's not a case that people should live in constant fear of being raped if they choose to dress a certain way. It's just that the awareness is important. The times people most likely dress in the manner currently being referred to as 'slutty' is when they go out on the town, late at night, the alcohol's usually flowing, people are often on the prowl for potential hook-ups, bad things can happen.

It's not that much of a chore to just have some sort of sense and sensibility about you, to be a bit careful, is it?

No, I'd agree with that. Just not at the wardrobe.

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

Yeah, the subject here seems to be "She was asking for it with how she was dressed blah blah blah"

which isn't such a good argument unless you want to go the whole "She was asking to be raped, being out of her house like that blah blah blah"

I swear to god if I ever see you in that skimpy military outfit with the handcuffs and crotchless chaps I'm reporting you to the Federal Bureau of Investigation or something.

p.s. you're a total slut.

 

[CptStern]

holy shit this thread is still going? lol, hl2.net/misogyny

 

[ríomhaire]

If a girl dresses a certain way, acts a certain way, and goes to establishments that promote the kind of behaviour that is condusive to "sluttiness," then yes, she is directly putting herself in danger of being preyed upon my males who, upon being rejected, resort to rape.

I was writing a more neutral and collected paragraph but I just deleted because the entire time I was holding myself back from just typing that you're spouting complete bullshit. But you know what, that's pretty appropriate for this argument. Rape does not happen when a man sees a short skirt and decides goddamn it I need to **** that woman at all costs. It happens when a man becomes to twisted and sexually frustrated that the only way he can satisfy himself is by horrifically forcing himself on someone. It's not something that just happens all of a sudden. It's a damn bursting and what triggers that final explosion is not at fault. You think you're giving practical advice. You are not. You are providing a method for women to be judged for a terrible thing that was inflicted on them and blame themselves for it. Real advice is make sure you're aware of the area you're in and what kind of reputation it has and to make sure to have someone you trust with you at all times when it's late

I am not trying to put words in your mouth there. I know you are not saying short skirts=rape. I know you are really trying to actually give advice and help it's as helpful as saying...I spent the last five minutes trying to come up with something to say there. I couldn't think of anything that fit. I couldn't think of a single statement that could fit a real life situation blaming the victim without sounding ridiculous. And suggesting an arbitrary way someone could have prevented what is probably the worst thing that has ever happened to her having happened does not help anyone and is potentially even more damaging to people who have had inflicted on them the worst thing they will realistically ever experience (and it's a tragedy that it's such a realistic possibility).


Also, someone suggested I post this video for your enjoyment:

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGnGPAZcsqE

 

[Krynn72]

lol Riom still doesn't get the argument.

 

[Raziaar]

lol Riom still doesn't get the argument.

You know, honestly... I still don't get the argument coming from the other side either. I've shown that most rape crisis and prevention centers across the united states and even other countries... including government agencies, consider clothing and behavior not to be a factor in rape. And also, the other side keeps saying, "we're not placing any blame on the victim"... but then what are they doing? Every time we say there's no fault on the shoulders of the victim for what they wear... and then we keep getting countered with an exact complete opposite that it is because of what they wear... so how isn't that placing any blame?

The whole mentality of the blaming the victim mentality is actually so widespread in American culture that there are an huge number of unsuccessfully prosecuted brutal rape cases where the jury placed responsibility square on the shoulders of the victim, based on what she was wearing, where she was, how she was acting, etc... basically that she was just asking for it. That's not the extreme that the posters in this thread are going to, but that is EXACTLY the crux of the argument of the opposite side on a national level. That the women are asking for it by being so stupid in what they wear, what sorts of venues they visit(that aren't even really that bad).

Yes, there are women out there who use the rape argument in a completely horrific way to try and punish people. They lie about whether or not the sex was consensual. However, it's basically down to the point that pretty much no woman who is raped without being violently beaten is considered truthful in her claims of rape. And it's completely unfair to distrust those women based on the actions of the dishonest ones. The number of rapes that go unsuccessfully prosecuted because of this widespread mentality is disgusting, all based on the belief of the myth that clothing is so remarkably influential in rape. The people who believe in that myth are not rapists, and they have a hard time understanding that the things that sexually motivate them are usually not the same things that motivate a rapist. Rapists go for vulnerability and ways that place them in positions of domination over others... not based on how short a skirt is or how tight a blouse is.

Anyway, I think I'm done in this thread. HL2.net on many issues is actually quite enlightened... but it's sad to see that most people here are still sharing this ignorant view of the majority. The more people that just keep the tradition of ignorance alive regarding this issue are just more people who are doing absolutely nothing to help address the issues that are really at heart when it comes to rape.

 

[Absinthe]

Shed more tears for our ignorance, Raz.

Rape happens in a lot of other cases? But of course. But if somebody is suggesting you take care with your "slutty" attire, it is not to protect you from the creepy neighborhood stalker who only preys on those he knows.. It is not to protect you from the disgruntled intruder who targets and violates old women. More than likely, it is to protect you from from the drunken perv at a club or bar who won't take no for an answer, or the opportunistic weed who lurks on the dark path home. You say the majority of rape cases have nothing to do with one's clothing, which is a statement I can accept at face value. That doesn't mean you stop being mindful of the contexts and situations that could lead to rape and directly apply to you. If most car theft happened in New York, that doesn't mean I stop locking my vehicle in NC just because I'm at lower risk. It's not so much that provocative clothing leads to rape, but that it lends itself to the kind of mixed signals that can cause problems.

If you think that argument has no merit at all, say you were a parent and your daughter wanted to take to the town dressing like a "slut". Would you be concerned in the slightest? And presuming you were, would you then turn around and say that such a concern is entirely baseless?
I personally would be concerned. For a variety of reasons, certainly. But rape would be one of them. Bottom line is that there are possibly hundreds of reasons and factors that can lead to such a crime, and it is rarely just one specific cause. But I'm not going to completely discredit the significance of what one wears, given that is what gives others possibly the greatest impressions of our character. And I'm sorry if that's not PC enough or offends some victims of rape, but I think that's largely irrelevant in this argument.

Sidenote: There seems to be some unspoken sentiment pervading this topic: As if there's no way a woman (or a female rape victim for that matter) could agree that what you wear can make you a potential target. Personal experience has shown me otherwise, but unfortunately I don't have a supportive female friend who I can trot onto the forum to make that point. If we are truly at an impasse and you don't think that argument is structurally sound, that's one thing. But y'all need to stop portraying this as misogyny, because otherwise you're just ****wits.

 

[Raziaar]

Shed more tears for our ignorance, Raz.

Rape happens in a lot of other cases? But of course. But if somebody is suggesting you take care with your "slutty" attire, it is not to protect you from the creepy neighborhood stalker who only preys on those he knows.. It is not to protect you from the disgruntled intruder who targets and violates old women. More than likely, it is to protect you from from the drunken perv at a club or bar who won't take no for an answer, or the opportunistic weed who lurks on the dark path home. You say the majority of rape cases have nothing to do with one's clothing, which is a statement I can accept at face value. That doesn't mean you stop being mindful of the contexts and situations that could lead to rape and directly apply to you. If most car theft happened in New York, that doesn't mean I stop locking my vehicle in NC just because I'm at lower risk. It's not so much that provocative clothing leads to rape, but that it lends itself to the kind of mixed signals that can cause problems.

If you think that argument has no merit at all, say you were a parent and your daughter wanted to take to the town dressing like a "slut". Would you be concerned in the slightest? And presuming you were, would you then turn around and say that such a concern is entirely baseless?

What? Are you ****ing kidding me? You think that drunken perv is going to take no for an answer if the woman was dressed differently? Give me a ****ing break. And that opportunistic weed is going to be stalking his prey no matter what she wears. Oh no, she has a sweater? Well I better not prey on her. Listen to what you're saying. What, you think a sweater or a coat makes an attractive woman less attractive? Please... opportunists aren't playing on attractiveness anyway.

Equating car theft to rape? You're joking right?

Hear ye! Hear ye! Conservative clothing is life's padlock for the vagina and a shield against sexual predators! Hear ye! Hear ye! Maybe if this were an argument about car theft you'd be right... more expensive, nicer cars are targeted more. But it's not, and even if it were, it wouldn't be the fault of the owner who gets his car stolen or broken into just because he bought a nice car.

I'd be concerned about my daughter dressing like a slut because she'd be presenting herself as a slut, not because it's going to focus her down as a target by all the rapists in the city. She would be intelligent enough and instructed to stay away from dangerous areas, which any individual should do, man or woman. Her clothing isn't going to be a factor in whether she gets raped or not, but it will be a factor in the respect she gains or loses from those around her and her parents.

 

[Absinthe]

What? Are you ****ing kidding me? You think that drunken perv is going to take no for an answer if the woman was dressed differently?

I'm saying she might not even be approached if she dressed otherwise.
She can do her own risk assessment.
And you can try not to interpret my posts in the most bizarre way possible.

Give me a ****ing break. And that opportunistic weed is going to be stalking his prey no matter what she wears. Oh no, she has a sweater? Well I better not prey on her. Listen to what you're saying. What, you think a sweater or a coat makes an attractive woman less attractive? Please... opportunists aren't playing on attractiveness anyway.

Because all rapes are committed by the same kind of person for the same kind of reasons in the same kinds of scenarios, every time.
Man, you understand a rapist's motivations with such crystal clarity I'm starting to wonder if you're a bit too familiar with the subject matter.

GET IT? I'm calling you a rapist.

Equating car theft to rape? You're joking right?

No, dude. I'm totally not joking. I am indeed equating the two. Look 'em up.
CAR THEFT IS EXACTLY. THE. SAME. AS. RAPE. IN BOTH FORM AND FUNCTION.
We should stop distinguishing the two because really bro, they're identical.

That is exactly what I'm saying.

I'd be concerned about my daughter dressing like a slut because she'd be presenting herself as a slut, not because it's going to focus her down as a target by all the rapists in the city. She would be intelligent enough and instructed to stay away from dangerous areas, which any individual should do, man or woman. Her clothing isn't going to be a factor in whether she gets raped or not, but it will be a factor in the respect she gains or loses from those around her and her parents.

Why would you be concerned in the slightest if she presents herself as a slut? You said so yourself it doesn't matter at all. What does it matter what her friends or parents think of her? Why the **** should they be concerned?
Parents are not ultimately concerned if their kid presents herself as a slut END POINT. They are concerned with the behaviors, impressions, and the risks that are generally associated with that identity. That is the substance underneath the concern.

 

[Viperidae]

I'd be concerned about my daughter dressing like a slut because she'd be presenting herself as a slut

Oh. It's all so clear now.

 

[Raziaar]

Oh. It's all so clear now.

What's all so clear now? What are you insinuating? That opinion has absolutely shit all to do with this topic.


When will you guys understand that rape isn't a ****ing crime of passion, it's a crime of violence. Criminal psychologists and rape preventative organizations indicate that rapists do not target based on appearances, they target based on perceived vulnerability.

 

[Absinthe]

Again, WHY would you be concerned about her dressing like a slut? And don't give some fluffy answer about respect from peers or something similar.

You don't want her to dress like a slut because she will be identified as one and likely treated accordingly. And sluts are loose, easy, and looking to get ****ed.

 

[Baserape>]

I dress like a slut all the time.

 

[Raziaar]

I'm saying she might not even be approached if she dressed otherwise.
She can do her own risk assessment.
And you can try not to interpret my posts in the most bizarre way possible.

What's your basis in saying this? All the rape prevention research I've done from national authorities indicates otherwise.

Because all rapes are committed by the same kind of person for the same kind of reasons in the same kinds of scenarios, every time.
Man, you understand a rapist's motivations with such crystal clarity I'm starting to wonder if you're a bit too familiar with the subject matter.

Of course every rapist has their own pattern, and that is exactly the reason why clothing isn't the factor. Saying some chick shouldn't dress sexy at a bar so she won't get raped is ****ing ridiculous. Those predators are still going to find their targets no matter how they're dressed. They're not a god damn simple minded animal who only operates on visual cues.

GET IT? I'm calling you a rapist.

Uhh... okay? I'm getting my information from national sexual crime studies, not my opinion.

No, dude. I'm totally not joking. I am indeed equating the two. Look 'em up.
CAR THEFT IS EXACTLY. THE. SAME. AS. RAPE. IN BOTH FORM AND FUNCTION.
We should stop distinguishing the two because really bro, they're identical.

That is exactly what I'm saying.

Sorry, now you're just offering up retarded statements to back up your claims. Rape and car theft are entirely not similar or equal in any way. I can't even begin to take anything you say on the matter seriously anymore after hearing this. You're like one of those people who equates homosexuality with pedophilia because in their eyes they're both sexual perversions when in fact they're nothing alike. Car theft is about property theft and vandalism, and is nothing like violent sexual crime inflicted by predators.

So tell me, what's a woman's lojack? Is it not dressing sexy? Do they need to make themselves appear like a beat up old sedan, even when out trying to make themselves look and feel good while trying to find people to hang out with?

Why would you be concerned in the slightest if she presents herself as a slut? You said so yourself it doesn't matter at all. What does it matter what her friends or parents think of her? Why the **** should they be concerned?
Parents are not ultimately concerned if their kid presents herself as a slut END POINT. They are concerned with the behaviors, impressions, and the risks that are generally associated with that identity. That is the substance underneath the concern.

I'd be concerned because she's my daughter. I wouldn't want others to think my daughter is promiscuous as it would be entirely detrimental to her reputation, and in a child's world reputation means a hell of a lot, just as it does in the adult world. My definition of what constitutes slutty attire would probably be entirely different from other protective parents. I'm not even a parent so this is a relatively pointless conversation to have. No, see... there are no RISKS associated with a girl dressing 'sexy' going out with her friends or her boyfriend. The only RISKS that show up is if she's dealing with a boy or man who acts upon criminal instincts to rape or victimize her. Their behaviors weren't spawned by the way she dressed, they were spawned by their own ****ing behaviors. That boy or man are going to react the same way whether or not she was wearing a turtleneck sweater or she was wearing a midriff revealing shirt with shorts.

You can keep saying all you want how you're not blaming the women in any way, but that is exactly what you're doing and to say you're not placing one iota of blame on them is entirely disingenuous. Saying that she's putting herself at risk because she's disintegrating the willpower of the men around her, turning herself into a homing beacon.

Again, WHY would you be concerned about her dressing like a slut? And don't give some fluffy answer about respect from peers or something similar.

You don't want her to dress like a slut because she will be identified as one and likely treated accordingly. And sluts are loose, easy, and looking to get ****ed.

Fluffy answer about respect from peers? Oh come the **** on. Yeah! I don't want her to dress like a slut because she will be identified as one and likely treated accordingly. EXACTO****INGMUNDO. Sluts are loose, easy and looking to get ****ed. But you see, they're no different than any other ****ing person looking to have sex. They want to have sex consensually.

Now you've hit the road you can't turn back from. You are absolutely blaming the victims now. You're doing what the rest of the populace does and are saying that they were looking to be raped. They were looking to be raped because they dressed like a tramp and tramps are just looking to be ****ed and it doesn't matter by who. And it's their fault for attracting people to them who want to **** them in a non consensual way. Right?

........

If you're going to say incredibly stupid things, I'm going to call you out on it. And you've basically demonstrated that that's how you feel. I don't know why the **** you were trying to put yourself under the guise that you weren't blaming the victim, even though that's not even possible since even at the slightest, you were blaming them a tiny bit for increasing their risk factors.

 

[KiplingsCat]

Again, WHY would you be concerned about her dressing like a slut? And don't give some fluffy answer about respect from peers or something similar.

You don't want her to dress like a slut because she will be identified as one and likely treated accordingly. And sluts are loose, easy, and looking to get ****ed.

Oh...Jesus. Jesus Christ.

My attention was drawn to this thread by another, and I've been watching it with interest and mild derision, with no intention of contributing to what seemed a redundant back-and-forth argument..until now.

The real problem with that officer's remark, I think, was the sweeping, generalized, judgmental nature of what he said: Women should avoid "dressing like sluts".

Just what, please, is "dressing like a slut"? By saying a woman is dressing in a "slutty" way, do you mean that she is dressing sexy? Or wearing something revealing? If so, how much must be revealed before the outfit becomes "slutty"? 5 inches of leg above the knee? 6 maybe? I once had a school teacher "identify" me as a "slut" for showing a scant 3 inches, something that I had thought nothing of before hearing her hateful words. To this day, I feel worried about what others think of me when wearing anything that doesn't fall below my knees.

These judgments, firstly, that certain choices of attire make a woman "slutty", secondly, that that is anyone's business other than her own, never fail to astound me. A woman's outfit, behaviour and character, while they may seem distasteful or inappropriate us, should in no way dictate how she is likely to be treated.

Secondly, the fact that a woman wishes to embrace her sexuality, or, indeed, lets it be known that she wishes to have sex, need not be seen as unnatural or wrong. It makes me ashamed that we still live in a world where this is considered a dangerous practice for a woman. By using our dress to advocate that we wish to have sex, we reserve the right to CHOOSE WHO WE ****. I don't know where along the way this concept was lost, but it needs to be found again, fast.

For the record, creeps will try to latch on to you no matter what you wear, in my experience. Your best bet is to stick with friends and keep a firm eye on anything you're drinking at all times.

On Friday night, I'm going to a costume party. I'm wearing a short strapless dress that's two sizes too small. The only person I'm looking to get ****ed by is my boyfriend. If anyone thinks I'm sending them any sort of message, then they are wrong. I hope that my character, actions and personality will be enough to deter anybody from "treating me like a slut". They have always been in the past.