German soldiers in WWII- Murderers or regular men?

[Gargantou]

I'll admit i worded myself badly, but I've actually read the book and know for a fact it paints an unfair picture, Solaris.

And still, as said, naturally many of the Jewish people, especially the older ones that have direct or have a parent who have direct experience of the holocaust, will be more inclined towards bias.

Let's make one thing clear, I do not decide to automatically IGNORE a book or article etc, however, I take it into account when reading it, and it usually increases my waryness, for example if I read an article written by an Iranian Muslim about Zionism, I naturally am more skeptical of it than say if it had been written by an European Jew.

Where did I ever say that I refuse to read a book because it was written by a Jewish person?

 

[kineaesth]

Here in Sweden I could easily have sued you for libel and defamation.

Phwoar, good thing we're on the internet, eh?

The post you just made intrigues me, as it starts off quite civil and explanatory then suddenly escalates into vitriol.

 

[Tyguy]

Here in Sweden I could easily have sued you for libel and defamation.

this is an example of an epic fail...why must you attempt to derail the thread with such childish name calling? Argue the points and stop taking everything so personal.

 

[Gargantou]

Phwoar, good thing we're on the internet, eh?

The post you just made intrigues me, as it starts off quite civil and explanatory then suddenly escalates into vitriol.

What can I say? I'm a very special boy!

I edited the post though, I just get riled up when people constantly accuse me of belonging to an ideology that has been used to justify the systematic and deliberate extermination of millions upon millions of human beings.

 

[leib10]

The anti-semite label is thrown around precisely to stifle debate.

This I can agree with. It seems that a lot of criticism of Israeli or largely Jewish policies or statements is immediately refuted by being declared anti-Semitic, which 90% of the time is completely unwarranted because the criticism is not leveled at those responsible because they're Jewish. However, the mere evoking of the term "anti-Semitic" immediately colors the first party with Nazi undertones, making any debate impossible. It's similar to any race of people (including whites) who blame perceived discrimination against them simply "because they're white, black, Hispanic, etc." when there is little or no ground for suspecting that.

It's nigh impossible to have any sort of meaningful debate with these people when all they have to do is pull out the bombshell of "you're anti-Semitic/racist".

 

[Solaris]

I never said the holocaust didn't happen, but there are aspects of it that are excepted as canon, such as the "6 million" figure, which I disagree with.

How can we have constructive debate when you're calling me a "nazi anti-semite" for daring to have a differing opinion on a historical event? The anti-semite label is thrown around precisely to stifle debate.

Well what figure do you agree with? How many were killed? 2 Million? What's your evidence for this?

 

[Kadayi]

What could be more insulting, than telling a Jewish person that the holocaust never happened, that their grandparents were never murdered and in fact, the Jewish people created this lie purely for self gain.

I'm pretty sure he said none of that. Simply saying you'd like to see some actual figure work is not automatically a declaration of denial, or should it been assumed that its a prelude to denial. Plain truth of the matter is that magic '6 million' figure has been bandied around for years and years to the point that its become accepted as indisputable 'fact' without any real form of international investigation since.

If you look here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

You'll see that the figures are fairly board brush for Poland, versus other areas which kind of implies a degree of guess work in places (even the Polish scholars can't agree). Now whether the true figure was near 5 million than 6 million it wouldn't make it any less unacceptable, but actually having an independent international body make an accurate determination as to the true numbers wouldn't be a bad idea, because it would at least provide a solid platform for tackling Holocaust deniers beyond simply screaming 'Anti-Semite' at them in a hysterical manner all the time.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Let's say we include only Jews in the Holocaust, and discount the 700,000 or so Romani, the 200,000ish recorded disabled and mentally ill, the two to three million Soviet POWs and the 5000-15000 gay men (plus around 2 million ethnic Poles and 6 million Soviet civilians). Of course, we shouldn't include only Jews because this thread is about soldiers and war crimes generally. But whatever.

The thing about the 6 million Jew-only figure is that A) it's not set in stone and that B) it's often considered a conservative estimate. The Yad Vashem Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem (and seriously? A remembrance authority?) itself states that there's no precise figure and that there's lots of uncertainty. But 'six million' is corroborated by a lot of sources, more or less. It's the number that Adolf Eichman quoted. The early numbers reached by historians were rather lower - Raul Hilberg's 5.1m, for instance - but 5-6m was reached, with variance, by Jacob Leschinky, Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett. Wolfgang Benz in Berlin suggests 5.3-6.2 million. Usually the sources for such estimates combine comparisons of populations before and after the war with an examination of the Nazis' own figures.

If you break it down it's probably that only around 3 million perished in camps. In Hilberg's estimate of 5.1 million, he includes 800,000 in ghettos and 1,400,000 killed in open-air shootings (eg Einsatzgruppen). But his numbers are considered conservative precisely because he makes so much use of German figures; it's well known that as the war spiralled down Nazi record-keeping became more haphazard, sometimes deliberately so (burning evidence), and in any case a lot of deaths in ghettos and on the frontlines would just not be recorded (the activities of the Einsatzgruppen were typically undocumented).

'Six million' is not a number that comes out of nowhere and nobody pulled it out of their arse. Nobody actually claims that it's steadfast and universal. But even then, 5-6 million is a number usually found by historians of different countries and difficult political alignments. They have found it at different times, too: Hilberg in 1961, Benz in 1996. If anyone has better figures or some reason why all these people might be simultaneously mistaken, please, pipe up. But it is not arbitrary - and nor, I am inclined to suggest, is it important (save solely in the interests of historical accuracy, which is admittedly crucial), for in terms of historical guilt, would it matter particularly whether the Nazis had killed 4 million or 6 million?

 

[Kadayi]

Historical accuracy is the point.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Good (and, hell, I agree), because it appears to be quite accurate.

 

[13LACKBISHOP]

I think it depends. Say you were a German soldier and a Russian killed your best friend/friends I would not blame you from putting a bullet between his eyes. I guess thats your choice to make. In that situation there is no wrong answer. All logic goes out the window when it come to something like that.

However if you are a German and capture a russian who had not killed any of your friends then it is wrong because you are able to think clearly and are not blinded by hate.

I dont think it is wrong if that person is a threat. Say someone tries to disarm your gun and is unsuccesful then I have no problem because they could do it again thus risking your life.

If I was a solider who liberated people from the concentration camps it would get difficult because you would not be able to tell the people who are following orders to the pychopaths that were exessive though I think these solidiers(the pyscho ones) if captured should be imprisoned for life. There is no justifying what they did. These people have problems.


As for the whole "are german soldiers murderers" it all comes down to individuals. They are human like everybody else.

 

[swan_song1973]

with any war there'll be kids out there who have doubts about whether they're fighting for the right side, and i doubt there was an exception with the Nazis. I hate the bastards, but its impossible that all of them believed firmly in Nazi doctrine. The odds simply don't favor it.

 

[13LACKBISHOP]

with any war there'll be kids out there who have doubts about whether they're fighting for the right side, and i doubt there was an exception with the Nazis. I hate the bastards, but its impossible that all of them believed firmly in Nazi doctrine. The odds simply don't favor it.

True. My guess is that quite a big percentage(not sure but bigger than we believe to be so)
did not believe in what Nazi party was doing. Kept it secret because of fear of there peers or what might happen if they spoke out. This could have led to alot of deaths of innocents.