HL: Source Marine AI

[Langolier]

I bought Half-Life: Source a few days ago... and having played through it I was caught off guard by my encounters with the Marines. Sure I expected them to behave differently than in the original Half-Life, but when I was playing HL: Source I found them to be a level above the Combine Soldiers in HL2. Now Combine Soldiers are very easy to kill...

However I noticed that the Marines would actually cover each other with gun fire. They would also advance any time you ducked behind cover and they split up. You'd shoot at one, duck behind cover, pop out, he'd open up and try to force you back in, and then the other Marine surprises you from behind.

I need to play the game more... but the AI difinetly seems more advanced to me, compared to HL2 I mean.

Or am I just off my rocker?

 

[sinkoman]

Yup, the HL1 marine AI is and always has been some of the best in the bussiness. Most game developers aknowledge this.

They act more humanistic, utilize cover, tactical smoke outs, and know how to use their teammates.

One of the most entertaining things about them, however, is how humanoid their reactions are. It makes them more predictable as humans, rather than as AI. So with the marines, you can predict them to do something a real human would do, not like how in HL2, you can pretty much know automatically the AI is going to do. Two different predictables.

What made this aspect of predictability so great (for me) was that it allowed you to set up traps. Run into a room, see a marine squad here, duck behind a box, and notice a hallway here.

Now, a real human (in the marines position) would want to be all sneaky like, and want to try to ambush you from that hallway. You, as a human, subconciously know this, and just feel like "hmm, I have a good feeling about tripmining that hallway. Dunno why, I just do". It becomes a battle of wits eventually, because you can counteract the marines reactions on a subconcious level.

I might be reading too much into them, but no, you're not off your rocker. Almost everybody understands that the Marine AI was some of the best AI ever.

 

[Langolier]

Well just to clarify and make sure we're on the same page. I'm not talking about the original HL1 AI. I mean Half-Life: Source. The AI in the original Half-Life is definetly easier. I was just surprised in Source by how good they were at firing on you when you were exposed, and then advancing the moment you ducked. Not just advancing together either, sometimes they'd split up and get you from different angles. (Yes, sometimes they also have the lemmings syndrome, but not as often)

 

[WacK]

sinkoman.. so true..

 

[Dekstar]

Bastards!

/me goes to play HL1

 

[ríomhaire]

I bought Half-Life: Source a few days ago... and having played through it I was caught off guard by my encounters with the Marines. Sure I expected them to behave differently than in the original Half-Life, but when I was playing HL: Source I found them to be a level above the Combine Soldiers in HL2. Now Combine Soldiers are very easy to kill...

However I noticed that the Marines would actually cover each other with gun fire. They would also advance any time you ducked behind cover and they split up. You'd shoot at one, duck behind cover, pop out, he'd open up and try to force you back in, and then the other Marine surprises you from behind.

I need to play the game more... but the AI difinetly seems more advanced to me, compared to HL2 I mean.

Or am I just off my rocker?

They do all that in HL2.

 

[Solaris]

Not really riomhaire.

The HL2 combine, just stand still and shoot at you.
And hl1:source ai is the same as the hl1 I belive.

 

[sinkoman]

Not really riomhaire.

The HL2 combine, just stand still and shoot at you.
And hl1:source ai is the same as the hl1 I belive.

Not true.

Do I have to bring up my Gmod war experiment again?

The AI was obviously designed for large scale outdoors warfare. It just can't handle close quarters. If you notice, in larger areas, the AI will actually be smart, while in close quarters, they'll just stand there and shoot, despite the fact that there's a barrel they could duck under right infront of them.

 

[StAtiC]

HL2 AI has its times of great intelligence, other times they make me want to slap myself in the face.

 

[Venmoch]

Not true.

Do I have to bring up my Gmod war experiment again?

Yes. It interests me.

 

[^Ben]

Half life: Source's marines AI is just the combine AI.

 

[OvA]

Bastards!

/me goes to play HL1

bwahaha now I have the urge to play it too...

 

[little.rebel]

The marine's AI is more human, and in the original i liked its little features.

What the marines said and how they kicked u up if they charged into you.

In halflife2 the combine AI might seem more slower and less intelligent, but it is just as intelligent, but in a different way. The marines in hl1 are ass kickers and the combines in hl2 are slow but subtle and intelligent killers.

I think Valve know this, they designed them like they have, not just because it was an original and now its hl2. But because the marines in hl2 were humans. In hl2 the soldiers are combine cyborgs, the combines have some interesting skiklls and tactics , some very similar to the marines, but they are a more rigid and structured force. Valve intended this because the marines in hl1 were human soldiers, in HL2 the combines soldiers are cybory conditioned and controlleed men, they are therefore made crafty but very predictable and have an inflexible logic.

You may notice that the main thing about the combines is that they charge and take cover differently to the way the marines did and use thier group tactic differently. They move in and out of cover poping out of doors and back in again or from behind walls or furniature and they duck properly. They also move slower but move in close very aggressively when your surrounded. The combines move together as whole group and move on you in a group, they do not split up.

These differences are apparent and i dont think you can say one is better than the other. They just are proggrammed like this to act differently b=ecause they are dirrerent, and this is intentional by valve. Like i said this is because they both maybe soldiers, but whereas the marines are 100%human, the combines are programmed cyborg like things, valve intended them to be this way for that effect, because of "what" they are.

The marines and combines cannt be said to be the same, because even though some effects are, they are massively different in HL2.

Remeber this is the alien dominated world and they are basically like organic robots.

 

[DoctorWeeTodd]

You want good AI? Try FEAR or COD2. Sure they're easier to kill but they defeat obstacles flanks you and beat you down when reloading. In HL2, it almost felt as if they dumbed them down on purpose to give you a messianic feeling.

 

[Sparta]

They were dumbed down on purpose, but only to encourage use of the gravity gun apparently.

 

[sinkoman]

Yes. It interests me.

Open up GM_costruct, and make the garage a rebel base, and the opposite platform a combine base (put combine ontop and under).

Now set up some cover on the combine side.

Now set up some obstacles in the middle of the battlefield.

Now make some rebels in the rebel base, and remember to keep weaponry even. Like, a couple AR2's cover every so many smg's.

Now make some combine in the combine base, and remember to keep weaponry even. Like, for every piece of cover, three smg's, an ar2, and a shotgun.

Now make it so they can't see you (forget the command) and turn them on. Watch, and you'll see that the combine will form little firesquads, which'll then move towards the rebel base, ducking between cover as they go. While a few guys reload, the rest will continue to fire. They'll continue moving closer to the rebel base, ducking between cover and regrouping.

They'll even send some guys into the hangar thing to act as a last ditch backup. IE the rest of the army gets whiped out, somebody goes to check out the carnage (that'd be you), a squad of combine hiding in the hangar will rape your unsuspecting ass.

Now spawn a couple of Rebels in the hangar, and a couple of combine on the opposite side. They'll just sit there and shoot each other until they're all dead.

It's quite obvious that the AI reacts much better in wide, large scale warfare. Not the cramped hallways and city scapes of HL2.

 

[Ultimape]

Also, the ai reacts better when they are set up into squads, but that has to be done with complex bindings or inside a custom map. Also, the ai will preform better if the map itself has good movement nodes set up for them (for pathfinding)

 

[ríomhaire]

Open up GM_costruct, and make the garage a rebel base, and the opposite platform a combine base (put combine ontop and under).

Now set up some cover on the combine side.

Now set up some obstacles in the middle of the battlefield.

Now make some rebels in the rebel base, and remember to keep weaponry even. Like, a couple AR2's cover every so many smg's.

Now make some combine in the combine base, and remember to keep weaponry even. Like, for every piece of cover, three smg's, an ar2, and a shotgun.

Now make it so they can't see you (forget the command) and turn them on. Watch, and you'll see that the combine will form little firesquads, which'll then move towards the rebel base, ducking between cover as they go. While a few guys reload, the rest will continue to fire. They'll continue moving closer to the rebel base, ducking between cover and regrouping.

They'll even send some guys into the hangar thing to act as a last ditch backup. IE the rest of the army gets whiped out, somebody goes to check out the carnage (that'd be you), a squad of combine hiding in the hangar will rape your unsuspecting ass.

Now spawn a couple of Rebels in the hangar, and a couple of combine on the opposite side. They'll just sit there and shoot each other until they're all dead.

It's quite obvious that the AI reacts much better in wide, large scale warfare. Not the cramped hallways and city scapes of HL2.

"ent_setname A; ent_fire A setrelationship "B D_HT 900"
"ent_fire A setsquad A"
I'm gonna set up a battle between Regular Overwatch and Nova Prospekt Guards.

 

[Langolier]

Also, the ai reacts better when they are set up into squads, but that has to be done with complex bindings or inside a custom map. Also, the ai will preform better if the map itself has good movement nodes set up for them (for pathfinding)

Maybe that's the case then. Perhaps the Marines are all set into squads very well (they definetly act like it) and the maps in HL1 are just made better for the AI to perform. If Valve really did dumb it down in HL2 for the Gravity gun... then they really didn't do it justice. I think the Marines in HL1: Source are pretty challenging (specially on hard where they can hurt you bad) while at the same time having a reasonable amount of health. They don't feel like they're invincible anymore, just clever.

 

[ríomhaire]

Battle report:
I set up a team of Overwatch in the room with the vehicles and Nova team in the large building. Same amount of fire power. The entrance to the Nova base was given cars for cover. Both teams tried to flank but the flanking groups were both pushed back with surpresive fire. leaving a bunch of troops at the side door of the Nova base and the right hand entrance to the Overwatch base. It became pretty much a just keep shooting the enemy from base afair. The Overwatch going out the door of the base and moving back in to reload or shooting out the window and moving away from it to reload. The Novas were using a similar stratagy. When 1 team showed evidence of weakening the other started to move in but were always pushed back again. Eventualy the Overwatch were wittled down and the Novas moved in with a few troops. The Nova lost 3 troops to the good defending of the base but there was only a single Overwatch shotgunner left. He moved to the side of the door and blew away and enemy shotgunner when he tried to move in. He then went in between the 2 doors so he could guard both doors. The Novas sent in 2 more shotgunners, 1 to each door. The last Overwatch was about to blow the first away when the second ran up behind him and blew him away.
End Battle
Winner: Team Nova

 

[StardogChampion]

They got a bot-creator to join the team to make the AI for HL2, didn't they? They should've stuck with the guy that made the AI for HL1...

 

[PvtRyan]

They got a bot-creator to join the team to make the AI for HL2, didn't they? They should've stuck with the guy that made the AI for HL1...

The CS:Source (derived from Condition Zero) bot AI is the most amazing game AI _ever_

But I doubt they used the botmaker for HL2 AI as HL2 uses a system of nodes built into the map while bots use a seperate generated navigation file. Totally different systems.

 

[ríomhaire]

They got a bot-creator to join the team to make the AI for HL2, didn't they? They should've stuck with the guy that made the AI for HL1...

The only reason that people think marine AI is better is because they're harder to kill and that's because they had obscene health and Gordon wasn't such a bullet absorber.

 

[pvtbones]

the command to make yourself invisible to NPCs is "notarget" right? because even when I put it on they shoot at me.

 

[Laivasse]

The only reason that people think marine AI is better is because they're harder to kill and that's because they had obscene health and Gordon wasn't such a bullet absorber.

QFT. So much of this HL1 AI worship and insulting of HL2's AI seems like rose-tinted glasses for me. I remember the AI in HL1 being pants on many occasions: chucking grenades and then crouching on top of them for cover, marines staring at you blankly when you shoot at them, then going "ourgh" and running away, etc. Rarely have I found the AI in HL2 be bad, it's just that it doesn't get much of a chance to shine.

I actually found the HL2 AI to be fine indoors, considering the neat little tricks the cops sometimes pull of darting between doorways while firing at you down a hall, hiding behind tables, etc.

The combine were easier to kill than the marines in HL1, but only because the weapon balancing in HL2 was much better (although swung far in Gordon's favour). Having to empty a clip of mp5 ammo into a marine's face in HL1 (on hard) felt ridiculous to me.

edit: to be fair to the OP, I haven't played through HL source yet...

 

[Apocalypse89]

The only reason that people think marine AI is better is because they're harder to kill and that's because they had obscene health and Gordon wasn't such a bullet absorber.

That, and they ran faster than Doug Lombardi chasing a Halo fanboy.

 

[Cole]

That, and they ran faster than Doug Lombardi chasing a Halo fanboy.

Ha, no one can run that fast!

 

[r2000]

Battle report:
I set up a team of Overwatch in the room with the vehicles and Nova team in the large building. Same amount of fire power. The entrance to the Nova base was given cars for cover. Both teams tried to flank but the flanking groups were both pushed back with surpresive fire. leaving a bunch of troops at the side door of the Nova base and the right hand entrance to the Overwatch base. It became pretty much a just keep shooting the enemy from base afair. The Overwatch going out the door of the base and moving back in to reload or shooting out the window and moving away from it to reload. The Novas were using a similar stratagy. When 1 team showed evidence of weakening the other started to move in but were always pushed back again. Eventualy the Overwatch were wittled down and the Novas moved in with a few troops. The Nova lost 3 troops to the good defending of the base but there was only a single Overwatch shotgunner left. He moved to the side of the door and blew away and enemy shotgunner when he tried to move in. He then went in between the 2 doors so he could guard both doors. The Novas sent in 2 more shotgunners, 1 to each door. The last Overwatch was about to blow the first away when the second ran up behind him and blew him away.
End Battle
Winner: Team Nova

Did you add in a combine elite? Run the sim with one. Ten to 1 rebels will lose. Those guys bring an obscene amount of firepower to bear.

 

[Milkman]

You gys do know that the Marine AI in the first HL couldnt move and shoot at the same time? Doesnt sound too human to me. Combine in HL2 appear to be stupid because they are rarely grouped together. Soldiers have to be part of a Squad for their AI to interact with each other. Alot of mods like Antlion Troopers and even lost Coasts did this and the results are amazing. They talk to each other and do alot of great things. I am pretty HL1:S AI is exactly the same AI as HL2's, so whatever you are getting at is just a psychological difference because you assoicate Combine with brainless machines and Marines with human deathsquads.

 

[pvtbones]

could someone tell me all the commands I need to know, I've been trying to get this to work (for some reason notarget doesn't even work for me in Gmod )

 

[DoctorWeeTodd]

You gys do know that the Marine AI in the first HL couldnt move and shoot at the same time? Doesnt sound too human to me. Combine in HL2 appear to be stupid because they are rarely grouped together. Soldiers have to be part of a Squad for their AI to interact with each other. Alot of mods like Antlion Troopers and even lost Coasts did this and the results are amazing. They talk to each other and do alot of great things. I am pretty HL1:S AI is exactly the same AI as HL2's, so whatever you are getting at is just a psychological difference because you assoicate Combine with brainless machines and Marines with human deathsquads.

You do know that the AI in HL2 couldn't shoot for shit right?

The only reason that people think marine AI is better is because they're harder to kill and that's because they had obscene health and Gordon wasn't such a bullet absorber.

Not true, CoD for example has some of the best AI I've ever seen and they normally die with one shot. The most I've hit someone before all brain activity was four in the game.

 

[Milkman]

You do know that the AI in HL2 couldn't shoot for shit right?

Maybe your AI was drunk, mine shot as straight as they could. The way the weapons are coded makes them inaccurate, not the way the AI handles them.

 

[DoctorWeeTodd]

Maybe your AI was drunk, mine shot as straight as they could. The way the weapons are coded makes them inaccurate, not the way the AI handles them.

Your right there, those turret gunners were accurate as hell. You'd think the most powerful military force in the universe can afford decent weapons.

 

[Langolier]

I think the HL1: Source AI seems so much better to me because it is the advanced AI with a mix of HL1 and HL2's balancing. The Marines really can't take that much damage, but they are aggressive, accurate, and damaging enough to be challenging. They're quite a bit fast on their feet too. They're all better at dodging grenades than the enemies in HL2. It's too bad Valve dumbed it down in HL2. It's not like I can't own the Marines, but, they definetly fight better than their counter-parts in Hl2. Something's different.

Now the original Half-Life 1 is different. (I swear, no one here can read either) I know that already. I've played HL2 and then gone back and played HL1, and it makes the HL2 Combine Soldiers look like Delta Force.

 

[Sparta]

Not true, CoD for example has some of the best AI I've ever seen and they normally die with one shot. The most I've hit someone before all brain activity was four in the game.

CoD's AI is entirely script-based and waypoint based.

There is no AI.

 

[Kyorisu]

Squads allow you to group NPCs in ways they understand. Members of a squad will cover each other, move together, share information, and take turns at attacking their enemies. However, they have limitations:

* Squads cannot be directly influenced in the regular ways that individual NPCs can be. The mapper can still influence the individual squad members.
* Squads will not stay together if directed otherwise by a scripted or semi-scripted sequence.
* There are no squad leaders, unlike Half-Life 1.
* Squad tactics are less complex than in Half-Life 1.

To form a squad, edit the Squad Name property for each NPC that will be a part of it. All NPCs sharing the same squad name are in the same squad.

Source Valve Wiki.

I find the leader aspect interesting, and the tactics part just saddening. I want to be fighting elite strategists dammit.

 

[ríomhaire]

Did you add in a combine elite? Run the sim with one. Ten to 1 rebels will lose. Those guys bring an obscene amount of firepower to bear.

It was regular Overwatch soldiers verses Nova Prospekt guards

Edit:

You do know that the AI in HL2 couldn't shoot for shit right?

AI is really complex, as far as I know upgrading acuracy is simple if you know what values to edit.

I find the leader aspect interesting, and the tactics part just saddening. I want to be fighting elite strategists dammit.

I think it makes sence there is no leader. All Combine troops are uniform and identicle. They think identicaly and they don't need someone telling them what to do.

 

[noQ]

Anyone want to make a demo of this "AI battle" ?
Sounds interesting.

 

[ríomhaire]

Anyone want to make a demo of this "AI battle" ?
Sounds interesting.

I would but it would take me more than an hour to host.

 

[$kelet0r]

record it with fraps and send it to me if you like to host it over the super fast uni connection