So I met a couple of mormons today.....

[Que-Ever]

From theotherguy's post-

1. Polygamy- In practice for a few years during the pioneering stages, supposedly to help men take care of the several women who's husbands had died or whatever (but even I have rouble accepting that totally)

2. Cultist enclave in Salt Lake City- I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but I'm guessing it means EXTREEEEME mormons? As in, people who claim they're mormons (even though they're not) so they can get in on the multiple-wives thing.

3. Esoteric language- We have lots of special words because there's lots more stuff in our church. It's not like we keep it a secret.

4. Annoying missionaries- How many times have you actually been visited by LDS missionaries?

5. Founded by a 19th century charlatan- Well of course if you don't belive in the doctrine you're gonna think Joseph Smith is a charlatan. But if you take a look at the BoM, do you really think a twenty-something guy with no formal education would have been able to write that himself without some kind of help? (by which I mean god or something)

6. Believes in Jesus- At least you know we beleive in Jesus.

7. Believes Jesus not only went to Jerusalem, but to the americas- I'm not seeing what's wrong with this?

8. Promotes racism- I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure black skin was the mark that god put on cain back in the old testament (not that heavenly war crap, which I think is what the video said). And I will admit that blacks weren't allowed to hold the preisthood (basically the authority to do wahtever in the church) until the seventies. But other than that, no racism.

9. Promotes conservatism- You'd have to define conservatism for this to make any sense.

I seriously don't understand what all this hate on mormons is about. People act as if they're personally offended by them... which I guess is probably true, people get offended when people question their beliefs (and LDS doctrine says ours is the only true church, but don't all churches say that?)

 

[taviow]

Well, I'm surprised about Que-Ever and it's time to tell everyone that I'm christian even though people hate christians here. This is also the reason I'm never present in religion discussions. There you go guys, I'm christian.

Numbers, do you hate me?

 

[Que-Ever]

Well, I'm surprised about Que-Ever and it's time to tell everyone that I'm christian even though people hate christians here. There you go guys, I'm christian.

Numbers, do you hate me?

Surprise! Do I not seem mormon, or something?

 

[taviow]

I should have noticed it in the post you made earlier, but I didn't for some reason.

 

[15357]

Well, I'm surprised about Que-Ever and it's time to tell everyone that I'm christian even though people hate christians here. This is also the reason I'm never present in religion discussions. There you go guys, I'm christian.

Numbers, do you hate me?

No, unless you're a politician.

Anyway, maybe I should have accepted the book they were giving. It could have been interesting.

 

[Krynn72]

Surprise! Do I not seem mormon, or something?

I never would have known your were mormon if it werent for this thread.

Well, I'm surprised about Que-Ever and it's time to tell everyone that I'm christian even though people hate christians here. This is also the reason I'm never present in religion discussions. There you go guys, I'm christian.

Numbers, do you hate me?

Nobody here (as far as i can tell) hates people who are Christian. What people here hate is Christianity or *insert religion here*.

 

[taviow]

Nobody here (as far as i can tell) hates people who are Christian. What people here hate is Christianity or *insert religion here*.

At least I'm not one of those real crazy followers. I remember there were always some news posted here about some christian people doing some very crazy things that I really disagreed with. I don't remember where those threads are, but you probably remember something.

*sigh*

And I was kind of kidding when I guessed you. I posted the first name I saw, Zombieturtle, it was in Acepiloft's post, because I didn't know who was the mormon member anyway.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Of course, zombieturtle, people have the right to believe whatever they want.

The problems come when they buy into thought systems (eg faith) that, more or less, cause people all over the world to suffer.

Still! Obviously I'm taking the piss a little - although some of my experiences with Jehovah's Witnesses have been genuinely scary. I know very little about mormonism so I don't feel qualified to comment on it specifically, but I doubt it's any less crazy than any other religion, many of which I certainly criticise enough.

The one thing I don't get is why people's criticisms centre on polygamy.

Naturally when cult leaders implement the policy in order to get everyone to marry them, it's disgusting. But what's wrong with polygamy per se? If it goes wrong, well, so does marriage. And if your misgiving is a feminist one, it's a problem of inequality that lots of men can't marry one woman, not a problem with the institution of polygamy per se. You might thing a polygamous relationship is weird and wouldn't work but then you might think a gay relationship, an open relationship or a relationship with a massive age difference might not work. But these things can and do work despite the disadvantages and when they do go wrong it is, as often as not, for the same reasons that any relationship goes wrong (a whole other area of study).

 

[Dan]

Most people are nice, but most people are also stupid.

 

[Sulkdodds]

You seem to be under the impression you can somehow distinguish the bad and the good; 'a few bad apples in the barrel'. This isn't the case. There are plenty of good or great Christians - let us use Christianity as it's the particular religion we're both familiar with - and plenty of awful Christians.

However, the root problem of religion is not a 'bad apple' nor "a stupid thing thrown in." Rather, consider faith.

Religions may disagree, but a number in the world share this key and fundamental tenet: that of faith, of believing something without reason to, without evidence. However it's applied, it's a tenet that lends itself very well to horror and madness. If you can believe one thing without reason to, and make that leap of faith, you can believe anything - which is the point of the whole Flying Spaghetti Monster lolness, that there's no more evidence for a God than there is for any number of bizarro-theologies (cf. Pascal's Wager, problems with). Faith can be secular; a racist might believe without any real basis that black people are inferior.

- Gays are bad because God says so
- What God says so is binding because God exists and is lord
- God exists and is lord because -
(the rest is silence)
- because.

It is the employment of this particular monotheistic thought-axis which leads to most problems with religion. It's the kind of thought that leads politians to campaign against gay rights, God to Hate Fags, think tanks to ignore evidence and falsify or misconstrue studies to 'prove' that their religious convictions are right - and it leads a certain globe-spanning church to insist, despite the evidence, that using condoms will not stop aids - a claim that is killing people right now.

That's why I'm ambivalent about letting religion lie. It's interesting. It's frequently wonderful. But I'm very uncomfortable with legitimising that kind of deductive process, because the nature of that process means there is no sure place to stop.

I don't mean to be all science-fundamentalist because I don't doubt that all of us make such leaps of faith occasionally and perhaps very deeply. But at least by enquiry we can examine the wheels within the wheels and beyond our sky; faith will never do that. The leap, that moment-in-crisis, is as a literature student one of my primary fascinations, but when it comes to ethics, I am not going to accept that just because I make one, I should make another; ever read a Thomas Hardy book? We will all die and it's a fatalistic universe, but that doesn't mean it's okay to kill. Well, maybe we're not sure what our knowledge is based on, but the least we can do is reject the really obvious assumptions, reduce the instances.

When we say His name we don't always mean a big old cunt in a beard, so let's overthrow this tired old jealous god. There are still a million more to examine.

 

[Acepilotf14]

God exists and is the Lord because he is.
Thar.

 

[Sulkdodds]

So, 'because', then.

 

[TechnoHippyChic]

i think god is a pretty cool guy. eh damns sinners to eternal hell-fire and doesnt afraid of anything.

 

[Moto]

A lot of my friends are Mormons. They are by far the nicest people I know.

 

[Jintor]

God exists and is the Lord because he is.
Thar.

If He were someone or something I could observe with all, or any, of my senses, then there might be some foundation for that. As it stands, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Invisible Pink Unicorn.

 

[jverne]

From theotherguy's post-

1. Polygamy- In practice for a few years during the pioneering stages, supposedly to help men take care of the several women who's husbands had died or whatever (but even I have rouble accepting that totally)

2. Cultist enclave in Salt Lake City- I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but I'm guessing it means EXTREEEEME mormons? As in, people who claim they're mormons (even though they're not) so they can get in on the multiple-wives thing.

3. Esoteric language- We have lots of special words because there's lots more stuff in our church. It's not like we keep it a secret.

4. Annoying missionaries- How many times have you actually been visited by LDS missionaries?

5. Founded by a 19th century charlatan- Well of course if you don't belive in the doctrine you're gonna think Joseph Smith is a charlatan. But if you take a look at the BoM, do you really think a twenty-something guy with no formal education would have been able to write that himself without some kind of help? (by which I mean god or something)

6. Believes in Jesus- At least you know we beleive in Jesus.

7. Believes Jesus not only went to Jerusalem, but to the americas- I'm not seeing what's wrong with this?

8. Promotes racism- I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure black skin was the mark that god put on cain back in the old testament (not that heavenly war crap, which I think is what the video said). And I will admit that blacks weren't allowed to hold the preisthood (basically the authority to do wahtever in the church) until the seventies. But other than that, no racism.

9. Promotes conservatism- You'd have to define conservatism for this to make any sense.

I seriously don't understand what all this hate on mormons is about. People act as if they're personally offended by them... which I guess is probably true, people get offended when people question their beliefs (and LDS doctrine says ours is the only true church, but don't all churches say that?)

you must be joking right? you actually buy into that?


in effing gods' name why is it so difficult to think there is no god?!? things become much more simpler.

i bet that just by playing HL or being here you committed many sins. seriously you must be joking about being a mormon?!

 

[Solaris]

Sulkdodds, brilliant post. A*.

Que-ever, you must think yourself pretty lucky, lucky that you were born into a mormon familly. Becuase that is the only true faith. You recognise however that all religions believe this. And their convictions are just as strong as yours and their reasoning for this the same. But for some reason, out of all the people who believe they're religion to be right, 90%+ of them are wrong, but you, by accident of birth, happen to not be one of these people.

Were you born into a Muslim familly you'd probably be a Muslim, so would I perhaps, and we'd be thinking how everyone else is deluded but we are the only ones who are correct.

Lucky you for being born into the 'true' religion, ey?

 

[Que-Ever]

Sulkdodds, brilliant post. A*.

Que-ever, you must think yourself pretty lucky, lucky that you were born into a mormon familly. Becuase that is the only true faith. You recognise however that all religions believe this. And their convictions are just as strong as yours and their reasoning for this the same. But for some reason, out of all the people who believe they're religion to be right, 90%+ of them are wrong, but you, by accident of birth, happen to not be one of these people.

Were you born into a Muslim familly you'd probably be a Muslim, so would I perhaps, and we'd be thinking how everyone else is deluded but we are the only ones who are correct.

Lucky you for being born into the 'true' religion, ey?

Yes, I know mormons belive they're the only true religion. Yes, I know all other religions belive that. I even said it in a previous post. If you didn't think your religion was right, why would you be a part of it? I don't see the point of your post.

Also, jverne, the only reason you think mormonism is wrong is because you don't believe in god? So do you have the same attitude towards all religions, and just talking about mormons here because that's the subject?

Ok, look, I believe in god because it's what I was brought up to do. Kind of like how everyone was brought up to believe 2+2=4 (and that's just an example, so don't give me any shit about what's actually fact or not) or that communists are evil or whatever. I appreciate the church because they have standards, such as not drinking or smoking (for health reasons) or wearing modest clithing or whatever. I'd even say about half of what we learn in church is how to be a good person. It's a huge part of what makes me what I am, and I happen to be happy with how I am.

All the spiritual, godly stuff, a lot of it makes sense. It could just be because it's been thought about for a couple hundred years and all the loopholes have been shut. Or it could actually be true. I don't really know. It doesn't hurt to know it all if it is true, though. It doesn't kill me to put a suit on every sunday and listen to cool stories and be taught how to be nice for a couple hours. I'm sure some people here could benefit from it.

All that said, I'm not exactly a picture-perfect mormon. Or Latter-Day-Saint as we're supposed to call ourselves. I swear, I have dirty thoughts, etc. Does it really matter? I don't think so.

EDIT: Also, if anybody was wondering what mormon views on Gays are- well, mormons are big on families (You've probably heard the stereotype about huge mormon families- there are seven people in mine- five kids, one father, and ONE mother ) and Gays are... well, not really looked down on, I've never heard anything like, all gays are going to hell or whatever. But they aren't really liked, because they can't have kids, and can't have their own familly. And that's pretty much it. If you're having gay tendencies, you're supposed to go talk to your bishop, but I'm not sure what about. Probably to forgive you for not wanting to procreate or something.

 

[Solaris]

Yes, I know mormons belive they're the only true religion. Yes, I know all other religions belive that. I even said it in a previous post. If you didn't think your religion was right, why would you be a part of it? I don't see the point of your post.

Well my point is that surely you can recognize how you only believe what you do due to accident of birth. Can you not see your standards of reasoning lead to different conclusions, Allah is the only true god, Jesus is king etc.

These conclusions are not mutually compatible either, so surely, the reasoning must be wrong.

 

[Krynn72]

Hes already answered that question. He admits its because he was born into it, which is why he believes it. I like the Red Sox baseball team because my father and grandpa have always liked them, bought me Red Sox stuff when i was a kid, and took me to their games. Someone else might like the Yankees for the same reason. So obviously my reasoning for liking the Red Sox must be wrong then.

/sarcasm

 

[Kadayi]

I may not agree with someone's beliefs, or I may find some parts of certain beliefs to be stupid. But I am not going to be pompous and treat them like they are lower than me simply because they have different beliefs (yeah, A LOT of people here do this unfortunately)

Sometimes the people here are way to totalitarian close minded. Who the **** cares as long as they are a good person? Everyone needs to shut up and get along.

QFT

I'm an Atheist, but I don't feel it's necessary to run down religion or religious people at every opportunity like a lot around here. As long as no ones aggressively trying to force their beliefs on me or my family then they can think what they want.

 

[theotherguy]

Ok, look, I believe in god because it's what I was brought up to do. Kind of like how everyone was brought up to believe 2+2=4 (and that's just an example, so don't give me any shit about what's actually fact or not) or that communists are evil or whatever. I appreciate the church because they have standards, such as not drinking or smoking (for health reasons) or wearing modest clithing or whatever. I'd even say about half of what we learn in church is how to be a good person. It's a huge part of what makes me what I am, and I happen to be happy with how I am.

But you don't need to believe in a magical man or in mystical prophecies written on golden plates to be a good person, or to avoid smoking and drinking. Those things are obvious on any utilitarian or otherwise secular level of thought. I applaud Mormonism for these things, but I feel they are doing it for all the wrong reasons.

The same goes for any religion.

 

[nurizeko]

I don't smoke, drink, covert my neighbours wife or any of that crap (cept his daughter DAMN she's fine) and I am about as interested in faith as any given godless science following heathen.


The sooner he human race gets over the fear of the unknown (at least surrounding death) and accepts that morals don't need to be handed down from on high, the better.


But as they go, at least British Mormons seems fairly moderate and actually are fairly easy to get along with since they don't criticize or bring God into every little thing.

 

[Sulkdodds]

See, this is my point, this isn't faith you're speaking of, it's the missunderstanding of faith.

Ah. I see.

Theology is as deep and complex and subtle a field as any other. Christian art or literature or culture the same. Christian people; just as nice and open-minded people you could ever meet.

But what's faith? What am I misunderstanding here? What is this weird and intangible thing that I grapple with?

The only-glimpsed light of the numinous, transcendent? The out-there other which you can never quite reach? The beauty? The power?

 

[MJ12]

Ah. I see.

Theology is as deep and complex and subtle a field as any other. Christian art or literature or culture the same. Christian people; just as nice and open-minded people you could ever meet.

But what's faith? What am I misunderstanding here? What is this weird and intangible thing that I grapple with?

The only-glimpsed light of the numinous, transcendent? The out-there other which you can never quite reach? The beauty? The power?

Well you are speaking to someone who's faith is generally on a seesaw, personally I really don't look into faith that much as I find the existence of god/afterlife an unimportant question of life, rather I live more so about making good choices in this life and doing the best I can. So I am not going to deny or acknowledge anything. And hey, if there is an afterlife and a god, maybe I'll get in, maybe not, maybe there is nothing. I really don't care, theres more important things to deal with now. I work on being a better person, not afterdeath gratification.

"The aim of life is self-development. To realize one's nature perfectly - that is what each of us is here for."-Oscar Wilde -is pretty much the mentality I have.


But faith is pretty subjective depending upon how you understand it. I am just speaking on behalf of christians who really know what they are talking about. They are not loonies, and they take logic into account far more than people who use faith blindly. People who use blind faith for everything are the dangerous ones.

 

[Absinthe]

There are those few that truely understand and follow their faith the correct way, and I have absolutely no problem with them, they are intelligent, well spoken, open minded, loving people.

And you can say this how?

Just because the particular following of a religion is less violent and more acceptable by modern standards does not mean it adheres more accurately and faithfully to its original teachings.

You are simply making this claim because a message of love and acceptance is far less offensive and objectionable than one of prejudice and conquest. That's perfectly good. And any Christians or Muslims that practice the former are good people. But trying to legitimize their alleged religion while outright dismissing its nasty content is dishonest.

Fact: Both Christianity and Islam have teachings in their scriptures that we would consider deplorably by modern standards. Translation errors are moot because objectionable material of some sort is inevitably conveyed regardless of language. If we are to assume that such scripture contains the word of God, then it all must be followed without exception. In case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of destructive Muslims who have just as valid an interpretation of their religion as peaceful, non-violent ones do.

 

[Kadayi]

In case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of destructive Muslims who have just as valid an interpretation of their religion as peaceful, non-violent ones do.

I'd disagree on that point. The vast majority of Muslims don't support the radical Islamic movement, because they clearly aren't waging a war of terror on anyone. Then IRA bombed the shit of of the British for many years, but their position and desires could hardly be considered wholly representative of both the Southern and North Irish communities. Your logic is flawed.

 

[Stigmata]

"A lot of" is not the same as "the majority of". What he said is perfectly valid.

 

[Absinthe]

I'd disagree on that point. The vast majority of Muslims don't support the radical Islamic movement, because they clearly aren't waging a war of terror on anyone. Then IRA bombed the shit of of the British for many years, but their position and desires could hardly be considered wholly representative of both the Southern and North Irish communities. Your logic is flawed.

I never accused the majority of Muslims of being radical.

 

[MJ12]

And you can say this how?

Because it's evident that people who can look beyond the textual teachings of their faith are more rational, open minded, and loving? I mean, what do you want, it's not like I have a statistic of this, it's what I've experienced knowing different people.

Just because the particular following of a religion is less violent and more acceptable by modern standards does not mean it adheres more accurately and faithfully to its original teachings.

You are simply making this claim because a message of love and acceptance is far less offensive and objectionable than one of prejudice and conquest. That's perfectly good. And any Christians or Muslims that practice the former are good people. But trying to legitimize their alleged religion while outright dismissing its nasty content is dishonest.

Fact: Both Christianity and Islam have teachings in their scriptures that we would consider deplorably by modern standards. Translation errors are moot because objectionable material of some sort is inevitably conveyed regardless of language. If we are to assume that such scripture contains the word of God, then it all must be followed without exception. In case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of destructive Muslims who have just as valid an interpretation of their religion as peaceful, non-violent ones do.

Everyone seems to forget the fact that the peaceful and open minds individuals of these groups do not usually follow the bible or whatever their textual guidlines are word for word, infact, the christian faith isn't even supposed to take the bible literally. Those are fundamentalists.

 

[Andrew LB]

I've been friends with quite a few Mormons over the years and have nothing bad to say about them. They were always very good people, extremely family oriented, and good natured.

On the other hand, I've dated a girl who was Jahovas Witness (sp?) and met some people in the Church of Scientology... and ALL of them were CRAZY.

... and this is coming from a guy who comes from an Eastern Orthodox background (Greek Orthodox actually).

 

[99.vikram]

What do Jehovah's Witnesses believe?

 

[MJ12]

What do Jehovah's Witnesses believe?

i do know they believe practically any form of celebration is wrong. That includes things such as christmas and birthdays

 

[Raptor_Jesus]

What do Jehovah's Witnesses believe?

heaven is a petting zoo

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Jehovas Witnesses are nutcases in every way. 99.vikram, they believe blood transfusions are wrong - and thus they're childeren die because they do not want blood transfusions. It fine if your an adult, do the world a favour and die for your stupidity, but not childeren.

 

[15357]

What do Jehovah's Witnesses believe?

Resist lawful conscription to the degree that you get your own file over at Amnesty International.

 

[Absinthe]

Because it's evident that people who can look beyond the textual teachings of their faith are more rational, open minded, and loving? I mean, what do you want, it's not like I have a statistic of this, it's what I've experienced knowing different people.

But that says nothing of how faithfully they adhere to their religion. You said that peaceful, moderate Muslims follow their faith correctly; the immediate implication being that violent fundamentalists do not. Regardless of who is more moral and rational, I think you'd have a tough time making that case.

Everyone seems to forget the fact that the peaceful and open minds individuals of these groups do not usually follow the bible or whatever their textual guidlines are word for word, infact, the christian faith isn't even supposed to take the bible literally. Those are fundamentalists.

I've not forgotten anything. Of course more open-minded and peaceful Christians don't follow the Bible word for word. Moderation often entails the willful disregard of God's word. But not every moderate necessarily follows the same teachings. If we grant the kind of silly idea that the Bible was actually designed to hold extraneous bullshit that you're meant to ignore, there's still a lot of ambiguity. Who is being a better Christian, zombie? The guy who opposes same-sex marriage or the guy who is for it? And the argument that such texts are not to be interpreted literally doesn't wash their hands of moral conundrums. What could possibly be the positive symbolic message behind Jericho's destruction, or the explicit command to not beat your slaves too hard?

I don't disagree that moderates are better than fundamentalists.

 

[Druckles]

Haha, Mormons are funny, I've had arguments with them in the middle of pedestrian precincts. Most of them were foreign, though, for some reason.

 

[Naph]

Heard a few down in Melbourne, but never seen any around suburban Brisbane...
Must be low pay job, but theres the 'Have a break when you want' concept.