TF2 was a better game before the class patches/map changes ...

Warbie

Warbie

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... at least competitively.

Discuss!
 
i agree that the map changes ruined some of it, but the unlocks just add a whole new variable to gameplay. though when the unlocks are first released....i really hate them
 
I still hate the unlockables. The idea of being rewarded with new weapons by being detrimental to the rest of the team is just plain ****ing stupid. Needs an entirely new delivery system, if not the removal of the new weapons entirely.
 
I actually had the most fun during the Beta time at the beginning. The whole Achievement whoring to get unlockables have ruined the game.
 
You don't need to achievement whore to get the unlockables.

There are few enough team-unfriendly achievements that you can get all unlocks without doing them. My flatmate and I just got them all through regular play.
 
I don't mind the patches now that they've toned down the stupidity of the achievements after the medic update. The unlocks add a nice bit of variety and flexibility. They are still coming out far too slow, though. I still maintain they should wait and release them 3, 6, 10 at a time. You could argue that large changes might create balance issues, but it's not like releasing one at a time is preserving the gameplay balance (for just how long was Natascha doing the wrong damage again...?).

As for the map changes, I'm kind of ambivalent. I don't really like the changes to pl_goldrush, but Valve are looking at their stats and seeing that Blu is losing a hell of a lot, so what can they do? We've got a map that puts the onus on Blu to push the cart and break Red's defence three times in a row, yet Valve want to see it produce an even spread of results. Slightly contradictory, but understandable.

Part of the problem is the prevalence of map types where the win conditions aren't especially conducive to balanced back-and-forth between the teams. This is particularly true of cp maps, in that they can be so easy to win for one side; a defence just needs to fall apart once and the round might end. Pl_* is a little more robust in this sense but it still tends to require one team to dominate the other. That's why I'd like to see more CTF maps, since in a score-based scenario you don't need to be steamrolling at all to be able to win, and a steamrolling team is at least required to exploit the same hole in defence multiple times. Give me stalemates over onesidedness any day.
 
I want more tc_ maps. Hydro is awesome, underrated and they should use the concept more.
 
I hate the way they've boxed in the balcony on goldrush, that was one of the best places to put a sentry.

I feel it makes the game harder for blu aswell, as it's harder to take out a sentry in the opposit building also, it was better when you could just creep up the stairs and send some sticky bomb love over there.
 
That's an interesting point. It never occurred to me to question whether that change actually benefits Blu or not (since it goes without saying that any change made to that map on the basis of balance should benefit Blu).

But like you say, it limits what Blu can do from that balcony and creates a subtle bottlenecking effect.
 
Love the maps, and new weapons, plus the system at which you get everything! Hate achievement cheaters!
 
Eejit said:
I want more tc_ maps. Hydro is awesome, underrated and they should use the concept more.
Click to expand...

I vote tc + alpine.


:D

Also, I agree completely with Asuka
 
Laivasse said:
That's an interesting point. It never occurred to me to question whether that change actually benefits Blu or not (since it goes without saying that any change made to that map on the basis of balance should benefit Blu).

But like you say, it limits what Blu can do from that balcony and creates a subtle bottlenecking effect.
Click to expand...

Definately. I absolutely love payload, but sometimes i think it's to easy for red to win, i was hoping that updates to the maps might tilt the games more in blu's favour (i.e closer to even).

Still good fun though, but i've played games where we've played over 20 rounds, and red has one every single one!

It wasn't until over a week after pl was introduced that i realised that stage 2 and 3 were different stages of goldrush and not seperate maps!
 
Defense is easier on random crappy pub servers than offense. It requires less teamwork and ability.
 
I don't care about competitive gaming and neither do most people that play the game purely for fun. Without these updates I'm certain that I wouldn't still be playing the game.
 
Doesn't have to be competitive play. Just find a server with good regulars who know how to play and work together. The game instantly becomes 1billion% better.
 
Eejit said:
Doesn't have to be competitive play. Just find a server with good regulars who know how to play and work together. The game instantly becomes 1billion% better.
Click to expand...

I agree after painfully trying to find a decent server I finally settled in one, and play there every day with a friend, you see the same people frequenting the place all the time, and it just becomes alot more comfortable.
 
This thread is as great as the TNMT thread you made.
 
Warbie said:
... at least competitively.

Discuss!
Click to expand...
I don't pay much attention to the competitive scene so I can't comment on that.

As for pub play, I think it would be way too harsh to say definitively that the game was better a year ago. Yes I do sometimes miss the times where Soldiers were being played more than Pyros. But at the same time there have been a lot of buffs and nerfs that were needed. The unlockables certainly add some interest and are a lot of fun, can you imagine playing Medic now without the Blutslaughter? Plus there are still six classes left, things are going to keep changing so if you don't like how things stand now maybe things will be more to your liking in the future. And lets not forget all the maps that have been released and the brilliant Payload gamemode.

As for "map changes" the only two major ones I can recall (outside of exploit fixes) are the stairs in Well and the increased Blu cover in Stage-1 Goldrush, both of which I strongly support.

COD4 still has the best unlockable system I've seen, but TF2 doesn't have enough stuff to unlock to support something simular. Tying unlockables to achievements is fine if the achievements are good. I think that the Heavy's achievements have been the best so far - I was able to get the Gloves relatively quickly by just playing Heavy as I normally would. And I do like the suspense of, "Oooh only 2 achievements left before I can try out this new shiny thing."
 
Hydro is great fun. A hydro-only server would suck ofc but it's a solid map in rotation.
 
Achievements and unlockables are great, but they should be easier to get.
Instant respawn servers ruined the game for me.
 
The medic achievements sucked because a lot of them were either near-impossible to get in a normal game or counterproductive to the medic's role.

The Pyro and Heavy ones were sensible though.
 
Polaris said:
Achievements and unlockables are great, but they should be easier to get.
Instant respawn servers ruined the game for me.
Click to expand...

Disagree: Achievement difficulty is perfect the way it is.

Agree: I hate instant respawn servers aswell. It's seems like vanilla/pure servers get less and less the longer the game has been out.
 
Instant respawn is the worst thing about TF2 at a glance. All in all, I'd say the unlocks are beneficial and most of the achievements since medic have been reasonable. After a new update things are ****ed for a few days, but overall, I'm quite happy with the TF2.
 
TF2 was better when it was called TFC.

Seriously, nothing will ever beat how awesome TFC is. 2fort nade spamming, awesome well defenses as engineer, sniper maps, original dustbowl, avanti, hunted, so many more that I can't even remember.

I was a badass engineer and was in a clan that played competitively for a while. We rocked.
 
Instant respawn is fun for a warm up. I only play on random public servers (whichever is closest to full with the best ping). If there were a way to enforce tags for alltalk, instant respawn, custom maps, etc., that'd be great (so you could filter them out). What's fun about getting on random public servers is the variety of people you play with. Sometimes they stink, sometimes not. It's an extra challenge to play on a team of rookies or QIII players against a better team.

I think so far, Valve's done no wrong with the game. Yes, that one level of Hydro is heavily stacked against Blu, but on one occasion, I stopped the inevitable onslaught with a well placed sentry and won the point. That was vastly more rewarding than winning any given level on, say, Dustbowl, because it's so much harder to do.

I never played TFC and the thought of all characters having grenades makes me glad Valve refined them in the sequel.
 
Reflex said:
This thread is as great as the TNMT thread you made.
Click to expand...

That just shows what a bunch of philistines i'm surrounded with!

A tmnt game made by the guys who did Brawl - what's not to be excited about :P
 
Eejit said:
Hydro is great fun. A hydro-only server would suck ofc but it's a solid map in rotation.
Click to expand...

Exactly, but from what I've seen there isn't much middle ground; people either hate hydro and kick it out of rotation or set it as the only map and rape it to death.

Although it was absolutely ridiculous(since nearly everyone was hunting for the achievements and couldn't play medic for shit), I kinda miss the time when the medic pack was released, and I, being mostly a career medic, could play pretty much any class I wanted (not that there was anyone to restrict me but myself). Even though the medic drop afterwards was inevitable, it's still amusing how you can pretty much make or break a team depending on if I go medic or not. Now, a bad team will always fail no matter the number of medics but having one more is often one hell of a boost. And sawing clueless people for charge is always fun.

Not completely on topic but hey, just my two ubercents.
 
I like the achievement system. I have earned whatever I have wanted just in normal game play. Plus, its not like the weapons are "better" i still use some of the default ones. It's more about how you use them, for instance for the Pyro, the default flamethrower is quite good at taking out sentries because of the alternative fire. With the "upgrade" you don't get this, but the Crits do help if you're good at being a Pyro and are able to sneak behind people. To someone that isn't really "good" at team fortress the upgrades might seem like a must because there is always somewhere else to place you're playing ability other than saying you're just not up to par.
The only thing i really dislike is these "achievement servers". These just promote players who don't have much skill. I think the whole point to the new weapons is to have the skill to use them when you get them, not to just have them when you start the game.

But who knows, I'm not the one who makes this game.

Tschuss
~Jake
 
TF2 was a better game when it was in beta! Get over it!
 
You people are all ungrateful for what you have. If you want to play the game without the patches or updates, get the 360 version.
 
I kind of agree with OP, but TF2 needed some add-ons here and there to keep it... "Fresh".
 
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