Valve being regressive?

H

Hortz

Newbie
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
http://www.naturalmotion.com/euphoria.htm

I don't understand why Valve doesn't use this old technology to make zombies far more enjoyable to kill, instead you get zombie kill for shooting their hand or foot off, and in trailers handless zombies are lunging at you. WTF?

Sure there are no walking on steps animations like in Half Life 2 series.
And the physics is downgraded to non-existent than in HL2.
And the water is also worse than in HL2.
And the weapon animations and motion is worse than in HL2.
And there is clipping all the time, you can see zombie hands and heads through doors and walls.
And often you see zombies levitate.
And there is no story or narration devices.
And so on, and so on...


But at least Valve could make a single strong point in the game with this technology, couldn't they?
 
Hortz,

Left 4 dead is a multiplayer cooperative first person zombie shooter. Half life 2 is a single player F.P.S.
L4D has a total of at least 5 enemies on screen at any time. At most,in half life 2, there is a grand total of around ten enemies onscreen at difficult points in the game, as well as no other players. Left for dead has around 10-40 zombies onscreen at regular intervals, each with their own navigation progams running. do you really think a processor is gunna be able to show the zombies, run the scripts, control special infected spawns and also make sure that a little bit of zombie isn't through a door, or a pop bottle is bobbing in the water?

Get real dude

What little bit of water there is in l4d is less than what fills a wave pool at a water park, and you don't really even go in it if you have a good plan during the finale.


By the way, left 4 dead also has 3 other people playing, which takes up some internet latency
the game is a little less advanced for that reason. Hl2 is single player, high graphics ahoy!

Man up.

Edit:
the people in the video were spawning that tank and witch using console codes, while aiming at the door, your argument is invalid
 
Sure there are no walking on steps animations like in Half Life 2 series.
Click to expand...

Because we all know Left 4 Dead is a ****ing game based on animation critique, not killing zombies right? /sarcasm

And the physics is downgraded to non-existent than in HL2.
Click to expand...

This is probably due to the fact that Left 4 Dead has almost no focus at all on physics. Half-Life 2 does have physics puzzles. Left 4 Dead does not. Even so, the physics are fine anyways.

And the water is also worse than in HL2.
Click to expand...

Again, nitpicking.

And the weapon animations and motion is worse than in HL2.
Click to expand...

Simpler and faster, maybe. Again, who is going to actually play the game for the sole purpose of critiquing the weapon animations? They're fine.

And there is clipping all the time, you can see zombie hands and heads through doors and walls.
Click to expand...

Yeah, sure there are. I'll be sure to stop using the game as intended and actually think about a small detail. The video you posted of a witch stuck in a door was also irrelevant, as playing the game in a manner that defies the game's sole purpose pretty much gives rise to situations that shouldn't happen. This basically means you're commenting on a glitch that happens because players forced it to.

And often you see zombies levitate.
Click to expand...

Actually, I don't.

And there is no story or narration devices.
Click to expand...

There is a story.

Also, multiple quotes.

Edit:

I want to see your Steam profile, to see which games you actually play.
 
L3N!N said:
This is probably due to the fact that Left 4 Dead has almost no focus at all on physics. Half-Life 2 does have physics puzzles. Left 4 Dead does not. Even so, the physics are fine anyways.
Click to expand...

it's a multiplayer game - devs always (have to) use low grade physics for mp games, or you'd end up getting 1000 lag.
 
If you want to play Half-Life 2, play Half-Life 2. In case you haven't noticed, every Valve game isn't, and isn't trying to be HL2.
 
Hortz said:
http://www.naturalmotion.com/euphoria.htm

I don't understand why Valve doesn't use this old technology to make zombies far more enjoyable to kill, instead you get zombie kill for shooting their hand or foot off, and in trailers handless zombies are lunging at you. WTF?

Sure there are no walking on steps animations like in Half Life 2 series.
And the physics is downgraded to non-existent than in HL2.
And the water is also worse than in HL2.
And the weapon animations and motion is worse than in HL2.
And there is clipping all the time, you can see zombie hands and heads through doors and walls.
And often you see zombies levitate.
And there is no story or narration devices.
And so on, and so on...


But at least Valve could make a single strong point in the game with this technology, couldn't they?
Click to expand...
Alright. Let's see:

- A semi-valid complaint, though animations like that take up far more CPU time than you'd think.
- Probably because physics in multiplayer = very high network traffic = high congestion, low ping = poor gameplay.
- It's not.
- They're not.
- Probably on account of real-time inverse-kinematic animations taking up tons of CPU time, same as walking on steps.
- Valid complaint. But it's also a problem seen in numerous other games and engines.
- There is story. Look for it. Don't be lazy.
 
****er doesn't even have L4D.

I just have to say, I own hl2 and left 4 dead, and I notice a lot more clipping in hl2 than I do in L4D. Hortz is just a troll.
 
Nobody in this thread understands what he is saying. They just see another "anti-Valve fan". First off L4D and any game that is based on the Source engine is 5 year old technology, maybe longer. In 2004 there was no such thing as physics and people were blown away by physic demo's that Valve put out with HL2. The thing is that Source can be modified but all the bugs and technology from the previous build remains the same. What you are playing is a 5 year old engine vastly modified from it's original.

Now as for saying they are regressing, they are not. Half-Life used a skeleton with a skin and that was revolutionary back then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rvRENAT0Cw
Then with the invention of physics, Valve used that with Source. In fact the entire reason behind the gravity gun was to show off physics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCx9D2iuOiw
Now the technology is far more advanced and the hardware capable of finding the answer to the universe. Valve can now merge skeleton, muscle, flesh, and AI, with little to no lag at all. What you are looking for is what I want Valve to make. That is a Source 2 with VAC 2.

To be fair as well guys, L4D411 even mentioned clipping in the early L4D beta play tests:
April 1st, 2007 - Even in a good ambush spot, it's not all daisies. The Boomer has a tendency to emit a very distinct, laborious groan every so often (you would too if you were in his condition). Survivors will learn to recognize this and be on the alert, often shooting through walls and doors. Unfortunately, due to his large model, I did notice a few clipping incidents where a shoulder or belly roll briefly poked through a wall, revealing my position. These things are to be expected in development but we definitely would like to see this ironed out before release.
Click to expand...

The conclusion to all this is that Valve is not regressing but rather limiting their potential.
 
What?

How can "all the bugs and technology remain the same" when parts of the engine are rewritten with each upgrade. The engine used in L4D is vastly different to the one used in HL2. Bugs get fixed, technology gets added/replaced. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Oh, and VAC2 has been out for ages. Like you've been told repeatedly.
 
Physics were invented in 2004? I'm pretty sure I was throwing around boxes and rocks in Thief, which came out in 1998, and those kinds of things are part of "physics" in a game.
 
From what I recall, physics were not really around until Valve put in the gravity gun. When Valve tries to patch Source, they usually break something else as well. We still have issues with stuttering, etc. They usually just fix something and break like 2 other things. I didn't know VAC 2 was out though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat If you play certain mods, you will get banned and can't use your games ever again. It is not reversible neither, no questions asked.
 
Isn't it scary how regression in all things can easily happen?
How "new generation" is not familiar with things a few years old so they don't have any frame of reference?
How it is easy to cultivate the audience to lowered standards?
How easy it is to impose false dichotomy fallacies by confronting gameplay vs visuals like gameplay is not an overarching structure and visuals is not and integral element of gameplay?

And seriously, what's up with the willful blindness, how is it possible to not notice huge amounts of clipping everywhere and zombies standing on invisible surfaces, how is it possible to not see zombie body parts through red doors on safe houses which appear 2 times in the whole map, nevermind the clipping everywhere else which ruins everything, they couldn't make 2 RED DOORS IN THE ENTIRE MAP IMPERVIOUS TO CLIPPING?!
 
The physics system in source is based on Havok, which existed long before Half-Life 2 came out, Max Payne 2 was quite a good example of having alot of tumbling objects on screen, but Valve were the first FPS to to make physics an integeral part of the gameplay (I know others tried, like Trespasser, but they were not nearly as far along).

I dont know of any game that doesnt have clipping of some description, its just a budgetary thing, L4D has more enemies on screen than any other Source game to date, they have to make a decision, do you spend more CPU cycles on working out the position of every ragdoll bone of dead enemies that most people will ignore after killing, or do you spend it on more particles, Ai responses for the survivors, HUD elements, etc.

It may not look like it to you, but the resource allowance on source has increased massively since Half-Life 2 came out, valve have a very broad customer base, and not everyone owns a PC capable of running the latest Shaders and such, its all about balance.
 
Hortz said:
And seriously, what's up with the willful blindness, how is it possible to not notice huge amounts of clipping everywhere and zombies standing on invisible surfaces, how is it possible to not see zombie body parts through red doors on safe houses which appear 2 times in the whole map, nevermind the clipping everywhere else which ruins everything, they couldn't make 2 RED DOORS IN THE ENTIRE MAP IMPERVIOUS TO CLIPPING?!
Click to expand...

Look, most people aren't actually denying that clipping occurs in L4D, we're just saying that it's understandable, given that L4D renders a lot more enemies compared to HL2, enemies that move alot faster, almost always travel in big groups, and huddle against doors whenever there's players on the other side of it. It isn't an indication of Valve games dropping in quality, they're just adjusting the technology for what that particular game needs to do, and what they can reasonably accomplish. To completely avoid clipping with that amount of enemies was probably pretty unfeasable, and would have needed a lot more processor power, which would have made the game lag, which would have seriously damaged gameplay. Which would have been a shame, for such a great and fun game.

Isn't it scary how regression in all things can easily happen?
How "new generation" is not familiar with things a few years old so they don't have any frame of reference?
How it is easy to cultivate the audience to lowered standards?
How easy it is to impose false dichotomy fallacies by confronting gameplay vs visuals like gameplay is not an overarching structure and visuals is not and integral element of gameplay?
Click to expand...

Yes it is, this is exactly how Hitler came to power.
 
Hortz said:
Isn't it scary how regression in all things can easily happen?
How "new generation" is not familiar with things a few years old so they don't have any frame of reference?
How it is easy to cultivate the audience to lowered standards?
How easy it is to impose false dichotomy fallacies by confronting gameplay vs visuals like gameplay is not an overarching structure and visuals is not and integral element of gameplay?

And seriously, what's up with the willful blindness, how is it possible to not notice huge amounts of clipping everywhere and zombies standing on invisible surfaces, how is it possible to not see zombie body parts through red doors on safe houses which appear 2 times in the whole map, nevermind the clipping everywhere else which ruins everything, they couldn't make 2 RED DOORS IN THE ENTIRE MAP IMPERVIOUS TO CLIPPING?!
Click to expand...

You should just stop now and go play Halo or something.
 
Hortz said:
Isn't it scary how regression in all things can easily happen?
How "new generation" is not familiar with things a few years old so they don't have any frame of reference?
How it is easy to cultivate the audience to lowered standards?
How easy it is to impose false dichotomy fallacies by confronting gameplay vs visuals like gameplay is not an overarching structure and visuals is not and integral element of gameplay?

And seriously, what's up with the willful blindness, how is it possible to not notice huge amounts of clipping everywhere and zombies standing on invisible surfaces, how is it possible to not see zombie body parts through red doors on safe houses which appear 2 times in the whole map, nevermind the clipping everywhere else which ruins everything, they couldn't make 2 RED DOORS IN THE ENTIRE MAP IMPERVIOUS TO CLIPPING?!
Click to expand...

Isn't it scary how you lose an argument and accuse the people of being ignorant and brainwashed?

Also, you sound like a pretentious man with a thesaurus. Please stop.
 
Isn't it scary how regression in all things can easily happen?
> such is the state of all that we know - Imagine how scary it will be when you've regressed to such a point that you worry about crapping your pants in public. If your bent on this, I hate to see when life throws you some real curveballs.
How "new generation" is not familiar with things a few years old so they don't have any frame of reference?
> what generation? I remember quite clearly games of the past, and their particular flaws. You're not actually arguing that things looked and worked better in the past, are you?
How it is easy to cultivate the audience to lowered standards?
> I like idea of cultivating an audience to align with and appreciate your particular goals, like fun gameplay, despite imperfections. The sum is greater than the parts in this game. Do you think these guys are unable to solve clipping issues if they wanted to? No - it's not their priority.
How easy it is to impose false dichotomy fallacies by confronting gameplay vs visuals like gameplay is not an overarching structure and visuals is not and integral element of gameplay?
> Once again, the sum is greater than the parts, and there are always compromises. We must find a balance, and that balance happens to work quite well here, IMO. And where's the fallacy here - did they ever claim to give people anything other than what they represent and produce? It's your $50 bucks, and there's a wonderful freedom we have here to investigate what you invest in.

And seriously, what's up with the willful blindness, how is it possible to not notice huge amounts of clipping everywhere and zombies standing on invisible surfaces, how is it possible to not see zombie body parts through red doors on safe houses which appear 2 times in the whole map, nevermind the clipping everywhere else which ruins everything, they couldn't make 2 RED DOORS IN THE ENTIRE MAP IMPERVIOUS TO CLIPPING?!

> hmmm.... willful blindness? I dunno, maybe people choose to not sweat the small stuff when the bigger experience is worth it. Maybe you should try it.
 
I believe there is an exponential regression of IQs of new users.
 
AJ Rimmer said:
Look, most people aren't actually denying that clipping occurs in L4D, we're just saying that it's understandable, given that L4D renders a lot more enemies compared to HL2, enemies that move alot faster, almost always travel in big groups, and huddle against doors whenever there's players on the other side of it. It isn't an indication of Valve games dropping in quality, they're just adjusting the technology for what that particular game needs to do, and what they can reasonably accomplish. To completely avoid clipping with that amount of enemies was probably pretty unfeasable, and would have needed a lot more processor power, which would have made the game lag, which would have seriously damaged gameplay. Which would have been a shame, for such a great and fun game.
Click to expand...
this, is basically what i said on the first page, but everybody ignored it. at least every body who agrees with rimmer and me has common sense. Hortz needs to read other peoples posts more often
 
hool10 said:
From what I recall, physics were not really around until Valve put in the gravity gun. When Valve tries to patch Source, they usually break something else as well. We still have issues with stuttering, etc. They usually just fix something and break like 2 other things. I didn't know VAC 2 was out though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat If you play certain mods, you will get banned and can't use your games ever again. It is not reversible neither, no questions asked.
Click to expand...

Ingame physics was around way before Halflife 2 dude. I believe the first game to use an in game physics system was trespasser or some such. However in the early days of physics systems such as Havok, they were pretty much exclusively used for ragdolling more than anything else.

What Valve did was integrate physics into game play and they did this by introducing the notion of weight to in game objects by adapting the Havok physics code. In earlier games that used the Havok technology (Deus Ex:Invisible War and Max Payne 2 being example that spring to mind) objects didn't have any substance to them in terms of weight, and it would only take the player to move against an object to knock it over generally, which was both immersion breaking and occasionally annoying.
 
I have no idea what you're talking about, Porkins.
 
hool10 said:
I didn't know VAC 2 was out though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat If you play certain mods, you will get banned and can't use your games ever again. It is not reversible neither, no questions asked.
Click to expand...

That's not Valves fault it's the fault of the mod creators for not following the rules. Just because you created the mod doesn't mean you can ignore VAC's rules. Using an SXE injection anti-cheat device is going to trigger VAC because it's injecting code just like cheats do. Frankly i'm glad VAC take a zero tolerance attitude.

Also i still fail to see how euphoria would fix any of this. Also how is that old tech? it's only been out a few years and hardly any games use it.
 
Corp. Sheepo said:
I'm curious as to why you're so curious.
Click to expand...
My father was a thinker. And a genius. One night he goes off more creative than usual. My mother gets a kitchen pencil to explain herself. He doesn't like that. Not. One. Bit. So, me watching, he takes the pencil to her, mumbling while he does it. He turns to me and he says, "Why so curious?" He comes at me with the pencil. "Why so curious?" Puts the pencil on paper... "Let's put some thoughts on that page!" And... why so curious?

I am so, so sorry.
 
Behold the awesome level of Valve's lazyness/incompetence/regression-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxp6QQKhSTs&feature=rec-HM-r2

first 10 seconds, watch the door.
Also jerky sliding animations of zombies with invisible carpets.
It makes me long for Resident Evil 4 all over again, everything was pretty solid there compared to this.
This just feels so flimsy.

And I just finished Death Toll campaign, I can't believe how much worse the water is from Half Life 2.
 
Yes, it still doesn't make sense that so many things are worse than in Half Life 2. Why are you making excuses for half-baked product?
 
Hortz said:
Yes, it still doesn't make sense that so many things are worse than in Half Life 2. Why are you making excuses for half-baked product?
Click to expand...

Because I don't think it is a half-baked product. And yes, it does make sense, because L4D has to do things that HL2 never had to.
 
Also don't you think that this mentality of submission to far lowered standards is against common sense and your interest?
 
Hortz said:
Also don't you think that this mentality of submission to far lowered standards is against common sense and your interest?
Click to expand...

Don't you think that your constantly condescending tone and assumption that we're all blind sheep is against common decency, as well as your interest?
 
Hortz said:
First 10 seconds, watch the door.
Also jerky sliding animations of zombies with invisible carpets.
It makes me long for Resident Evil 4 all over again, everything was pretty solid there compared to this.
Click to expand...

First of all, thats a HL2 map, not a L4D map, the map entities are different between games, and the nav mesh has been generated by some random community member, which in itself is impressive given that any source engine map can be transplanted and recognised by the ai through the use of 3 or 4 console commands, somthing that HL2 was never capable of, due to the enemies requiring hand placed restrictive nav-nodes that took hours to rig up. Thats not to say that properly made maps dont suffer from clipping, but then HL2 had the same issues with its antlions.

I have to be honest, I feel quite sorry for anyone who goes through games unable to enjoy themselves because of water textures, but alot of you do exist.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

-smash-
ARG or Easter Egg found inside Danger Zone update
Replies
2
Views
19K
BabyHeadCrab
BabyHeadCrab
bbson john
Hi everyone. I am new to this forum!
Replies
11
Views
6K
Tollbooth Willie
Tollbooth Willie
B
Barking Dog Studios' work for Valve
Replies
0
Views
11K
Barnz
B
B
From Warren Spector to Arkane Studios: Half-Life 2's cancelled Ravenholm episode
Replies
2
Views
10K
Clan Wolf 2
Clan Wolf 2
MFL
Fascinating look at the ongoing psychological evolution of flat hieirarchies.
Replies
2
Views
2K
Tollbooth Willie
Tollbooth Willie
Back
Top