Valve Responds to L4D 2 Criticism

[BabyHeadCrab]

I miss when Gabe used to actually drop a line.

Here Gabey gabey.... come on.. post!

 

[Trezoristo]

My biggest problem with all of this, is that though the people complaining do have one small point (they call it Valve's 'promise'), that point is lost in general outrage over basically every aspect of those games now.

I'm talking about people saying L4D was a bad game in the first place, with not enough content, people marginalizing the DLC L4D already receive and still will receive, people bashing every single aspect of the new game making you wonder why they'd like the content of that game to be added to L4D in the first place and people making all sorts of unfounded assumptions about the future of DLC for L4D1 and L4D2.

The over the top outrage just makes it hard to take these people serious.

I guess in the end both Valve and the customers learned something. Valve learned they shouldn't share their plans that easily, because if they change a huge mob of Angry Internet Men will chase them and scream they broke their promise. Customers learned they should buy a game because they like it and because it's worth their money, not because it might become so at some undefined point in the future.

 

[Operational]

People should ask themselves:
The age difference between L4D and the orange box

No, no they shouldn't. Criticisms involving the Left 4 Dead franchise should have nothing to do with any other game.

My criticism of Valve is that L4D, despite being fun, does have flaws and it feels like they pretty much abandoned it to work on the Sequel. Example: Shiva Stacking, Valve hates it and so do I (and I think a lot of other people do too) and in the Sequel you can see how they have changed things to prevent it but they haven't even tried to fix it in L4D.

 

[barbarbarbarbar]

If they are going to make a sequel , they should at least focus on the story.

 

[robsters]

So sad this is probably why they are so protective on the info of episode 3. To be honest some of you need to try play an EA games where either make rip off with addons of stuff that should be in the original game or where C&C Generals took over a year to get a patch for the online scud launcher bug which screwed that community up for a year.

valve are very loyal to there gamer fans it seems, someone correct me if i am wrong but werent gabe and others ex microsoft employees? and microsoft still updates its old products as well as its new ones. for all we know left 4 dead 1 will get updates still. but to be honest some games never get updates or even just a simple patch just to fix a bug so really some of you have no idea! I suspect a lot of you are stupid 13/14 year old american kids because u certaintly sound like them. Just to hard to imgine these people were gamers in the 90s where getting an updates to games was non exsistant and only addons or new sequel was the only way forward. sc3000 rings a bell where it was re-released as a game with extra stuff rather than an addon.

i am looking forward to left 4 dead 2 and considering i got the first for £13quid on a weekend deal i feel i got more than i paid for to be honest.

still sad about no episode 3 but i can accept valve are making the right choices. I work for a small company and i can understand how they probabley opperate. nothing worse than big corp greedy companies like EA where there no passion in the work being made and just made to a deadline.

 

[SpiderPig]

Put it another way.. how would you feel if they announced TF3 a few months after TF2?

Theres not masses amount of content in L4D2 from whats been announced to warrent a sequal.. Expansion maybe.

 

[robsters]

Put it another way.. how would you feel if they announced TF3 a few months after TF2?

Theres not masses amount of content in L4D2 from whats been announced to warrent a sequal.. Expansion maybe.

I know this get used against me but for one thing number 2 was a long time coming as it was so to replace it with TF3 within a year would def be pointless, unlike l4d 2 which just builds onto a game that came out the year before that was infact rescued for relese from turtle rock.

The thing is why is everyone bitching about it? so many games come out on yearly basis that build and improve vastly on the original concept without ruining the previous game before. so many sequels can think of that still have old predessor have online community still. To be honest TF2 updates have actally put me off bothering with it because i dont get time play games as often as i used to so to have a game that keeps changing with updates gets a little annoying. I was never a fan of the update thing from valve i rather see new products and games and sequels, def the way foward nice 1 valve.

Truth to all this was everyone pissed off about no half life episode 3 info thats all its really about because i know thats what annoyed me the most about this news but we have to keep an open mind. This l4d2 game doesnt deserve to be slated before we even had a chance to play it. Valve pretty much give away there games at crazy prices on steam, paid less for l4d1 then some addons for games :/ only 13quid which prob like 10 dollars :/ why are ppl throwing a hissy fit over it all ?? :/ wait for a weekend deal and get l4d2 just as cheap. I think valve are to cheap sometimes with there prices for the amount of work that clearly goes in.

patching and updating any game in my view never a good idea i cant stand addons and patches because just screams out the product wasnt good enough to begin with. least sequels can try new things and ideas as well as have a clean slate to work on. other thing with expanding a game with updates and addons is it more prone to crash not to mention all the downloading and installing if u reinstall a game to

 

[Trezoristo]

Put it another way.. how would you feel if they announced TF3 a few months after TF2?

Theres not masses amount of content in L4D2 from whats been announced to warrent a sequal.. Expansion maybe.

Do you imply that because Valve released so much additional content for TF2, that this is now the only business model open to them?

 

[Trevelyan]

I love Chet, glad they picked him up. v excited about l4d2, bring on the frying pans. got as far as samons post and that about summed it up. +1

 

[jeepis]

I am getting fed up with the fanboys on the forums as soon as someone criticises Valve they are apparently backstabbers, Valve are not perfect.

I'm not a fanboy and I didn't say that Valve is perfect. And they aren't just criticizing Valve, they're treating it like their little byatch, who has to do shit how these self-entitled assholes want it and when these self-entitled assholes want it. And they think Valve should do what they say, because there is so many of them, who signed that. If we would get 20000 signatures that the guy who started the boycott group should kill himself, would he do it? No... Hypocricy!

 

[Darkside55]

Put it another way.. how would you feel if they announced TF3 a few months after TF2?

That depends. Would TF3 be Brotherhood of Arms? If so, fuck yeah TF3.

 

[Sheepo]

Put it another way.. how would you feel if they announced TF3 a few months after TF2?

I would not buy it, if it looked bad.

 

[Howser]

I'm not a fanboy and I didn't say that Valve is perfect. And they aren't just criticizing Valve, they're treating it like their little byatch, who has to do shit how these self-entitled assholes want it and when these self-entitled assholes want it. And they think Valve should do what they say, because there is so many of them, who signed that. If we would get 20000 signatures that the guy who started the boycott group should kill himself, would he do it? No... Hypocricy!

The thing I don't get is why people who (probably) have no stake in L4D or its sequel get so defensive when people voice their opinions against valve. I honestly can't decide who's worse, the 'self entitled byatches' or the morons who try to defend their move with such aggression and almost no valid counter argument. Some people played coop a few times then moved on, i imagine the idea of a sequel is right up you street. though if you show me a hardcore L4D fan, I'll show you someone who's pissed at valves decision. I'm a member of a clan and currently working on my own campaign so I'd say I'm a pretty hardcore l4d fan. I love valve and I love L4D. Though I PERSONALLY feel anger over the whole process of development with l4d1/2. I waste my times arguing on the forums because i stand to loose something, however half the people on your side of the fence just seem to be motivated by some misplaced loyalty to valve. Grow up man. We're all entitled to our opinions, unfortunetly, even people like you are.

 

[Apocalypse89]

Joined the group, but I'll leave if Valve demonstrates the following:

1. That they'll continue supporting and adding new content to L4D1 in the months leading up to L4D2, and preferably even after its release.

2. If new media about L4D2 shows that it's different enough from the first game to warrant a full-priced sequel and not DLC or at least a lower-priced expansion pack. From what I've seen so far, it hasn't.

If they don't though, I'll accept the fact that Valve has decided to turn L4D into a cash cow series to fund their larger and more high-quality titles(Half-Life and Team Fortress), but I still won't buy it, at least for a while after release.

 

[Top Secret]

With the exception of a few missteps (namely CS:CZ), I've really got no major qualms with any full priced title they've launched since I've become a loyal customer of theirs

I'm just going to take a second and point something out here: namely, that I agree with this sentence. I said before that Valve is a great company. But even the best companies still slip up- it is inevitable. And I won't hold that against them. I'll still buy Portal 2 the instant it comes out, along with Episode 3 (even though I haven't beat 2...). I like Valve a lot, and that's part of the reason why I feel the need to get the word out when I believe they slipped up. If EA or Epic released a game and then tried to release it again a year later, I couldn't care less. But Valve... we're friends. And you gotta let your friends know when they're messing up. :cheers:

(*Note - I am not drunk, but I did just wake up.)

 

[Kadayi]

Theres not masses amount of content in L4D2 from whats been announced to warrent a sequal.. Expansion maybe.

Whoa there Donkey Kong, this isn't just a few new maps and some more guns they're adding. There is a lot more going on in L4D2 than it merely being an 'expansion pack'. Put your developer head on (if you have one) and look at it in critical detail and pretty soon you'll realise that trying to shove all the new game play elements into the existing campaigns probably wouldn't work that successfully. Why suffer compromises for the sake of it when its much easier to go mix up a new formula?

 

[Sheepo]

It's got five ****ing campaigns, every map has survival and versus, a shitload of new weapons, it looks better, it's more dynamic, it has more zombies, it has more special infected...

 

[Top Secret]

It's got five ****ing campaigns, every map has survival and versus, a shitload of new weapons, it looks better, it's more dynamic, it has more zombies, it has more special infected...

Oh wow. Good point there.

Too bad it's what L4D1 was supposed to get: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQWylFmqnwM

 

[Sheepo]

I'm responding to spiderpig, not you. If that's the reason you purchased the game I suppose you should be upset.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Man, how many times do you people have to post the SAME VIDEO?

The amount of spoilt brats in this thread pisses me off. Obviously, if a company says they are going to do something, IT CANNOT POSSIBLY BE CHANGED LATER. We should have all the content that was excluded from HL2, because, y'know, Valve promised us that. You all seem to believe that you deserve to have stuff for free. You don't deserve shit. Since you are boycotting Valve, you should proboaly boycott many other game companies for the exact same crime. EA (e.g. Fifa), Activision (e.g. Guitar Hero), need I go on?

Grow the **** up. Nothing in life is free.

 

[alehm]

Bioshock 2 should be boycotted. About the same size as the original, no dramatic change to gameplay, recycled sounds and textures, handful of new weapons and enemies. They are calling it a 'sequel' and charging full $50. Obviously it should be free or a $10 expansion tops. Where is the outrage? Where is the boycott?

 

[Absinthe]

Since you are boycotting Valve, you should proboaly boycott many other game companies for the exact same crime. EA (e.g. Fifa), Activision (e.g. Guitar Hero), need I go on?

Maybe a lot of these people don't buy those ****ing games either.

?

I've read quite a few opinions that state they wouldn't have a problem with paying for L4D DLC. They just don't want to see the player base split between the two titles.

 

[Sledgehammer]

I've read quite a few opinions that state they wouldn't have a problem with paying for L4D DLC. They just don't want to see the player base split between the two titles.

This is certainly a valid complaint. I hope it doesn't end like the DOD community (one game basically gets abandoned).

Then again, the TF2 community is also split. Some people only play on instant-respawn 24/7 2fort servers, and some only play cp_orange.

 

[Asknoone]

Oh wow. Good point there.

Too bad it's what L4D1 was supposed to get: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQWylFmqnwM

Woah there William Foster, clip your string.

What a piece of trash that video is; do you honestly think you are truly entitled to new maps, characters, and weapons in the shape of free, downloadable content? Did you see them on the box? Is that the prerequisite of purchasing a Valve title now? Of course it is. You want your free content, because that is Valve's obligation. Well, I do hate to be the harbinger of devastating news, but that's not the case at all. Valve don't owe you anything, and you should have taken their statements in regard to DLC with a pinch of salt - DLC is a luxury to which you have no claim. I have no sympathy with you.

I've noticed a lot of people claiming that L4D is broken, and they are pooh-poohing because they feel they have bought a broken game. L4D is not perfect; indeed, it's shallow and simplistic, with significant fault's of its own. But it's not broken. It wasn't a haphazard attempt at releasing a cooperative game of such a calibur, where L4D2 is the 'true vision'. That is not the reality. It's tragic to see that people have taken to so loosely using such descriptions to solidify their arguments. L4D was never broken, but now it apparently is, and said people seem to feel they are being openly ripped-off, further deluding themselves into believing they have a solid foundation for displaying such open garbage in two-bit videos.

L4D2 is a sequel. You are being asked to pay for it a year later post the original release. A game that (hopefully) improves and builds upon the foundations of the original in a variety of ways - it is being developed with the intent of hosting these new features in a framework established for them.

Valve are a company, and they function through income. That's kind of how it works, but maybe you're new to it, so we'll take baby-steps. They cannot function entirely through DLC. But, they do have an image and reputation of doing so - for instance, TF2, which has received frequent and sizeable updates for more than a year. The thing is - and this is where people seem to be getting their cereal in the wrong bowel - L4D isn't like TF2. Gasp. That's right. They are two different games, and they operate on very different principles.

Somewhere along the line, Valve came to the realisation that the next, truly beneficial step for L4D was to take it to sequel status; in terms of all-new content, that is what it became. If you think Valve sat around the table, which is to say all one-hundred-plus-however many of them, and said "Let's make a lot of money out of milking this cow", and slyly nodded to each other in unison, I think you are quite mistaken. Flush your requiem track down the toilet: the four horsemen are not riding tonight. You are simply being asked to pay for a sequel. Boo hoo.

 

[McGooTheWise]

That is the longest post I have ever seen Samon post, by a goddamn longshot. I suggest you stop if you plan on arguing farther, Top Secret.

 

[Paulaner]

I remember the time when DLC was an unknown acronym. Now, everyone buying a game is expecting to receive a lot of free stuff, months later the purchase. This is not something we can demand as our right, no matter what marketing says. Don't be naive.
Five campaigns, a new AI engine, new animations, new effects, new weapons, and so on? There is no way that Valve (or EA or Microsoft) is going to give away that stuff for free.

 

[Top Secret]

What a piece of trash that video is; do you honestly think you are truly entitled to new maps, characters, and weapons in the shape of free, downloadable content?

Nearly. I am very much willing to pay for it. I am not, however, willing to pay for content that is not retroactive to L4D1. Especially when the content (as demonstrated so far) is not worthy of a full fledged game.

Did you see them on the box? Is that the prerequisite of purchasing a Valve title now? Of course it is. You want your free content, because that is Valve's obligation. Well, I do hate to be the harbinger of devastating news, but that's not the case at all. Valve don't owe you anything, and you should have taken their statements in regard to DLC with a pinch of salt - DLC is a luxury to which you have no claim.

Owners of Left 4 Dead were mislead. Fact. Valve said there would be DLC like TF2. Yes, we are entitled whether you feel that way or not, Samon.

I have no sympathy with you.

Honestly Samon, I don't care. I don't want your sympathy. I don't care if you buy Left 4 Dead, or not. But you're wrong. Dead wrong. You can feel however you want, but the truth is, Valve mislead us all. Maybe you don't care about the DLC, and so it is not applicable to you. But you are not everyone. You don't represent everyone. You are not some harbinger as you seem to love labeling yourself. You're some dude in a room on a computer with an opinion.

I've noticed a lot of people claiming that L4D is broken, and they are pooh-poohing because they feel they have bought a broken game.

I don't consider L4D broken at all. It just lacks content, but that isn't the specific argument.

L4D is not perfect; indeed, it's shallow and simplistic, with significant fault's of its own. But it's not broken.

I agree that it is not broken. No qualms there.

It wasn't a haphazard attempt at releasing a cooperative game of such a calibur, where L4D2 is the 'true vision'. That is not the reality. It's tragic to see that people have taken to so loosely using such descriptions to solidify their arguments.

Who are you arguing against here? Are you insinuating that *I* believe what is written here?

L4D was never broken, but now it apparently is, and said people seem to feel they are being openly ripped-off, further deluding themselves into believing they have a solid foundation for displaying such open garbage in two-bit videos.

Straw man. I never even implied L4D was broken, assuming you're talking towards me.

L4D2 is a sequel.

Hardly.

A game that (hopefully) improves and builds upon the foundations of the original in a variety of ways - it is being developed with the intent of hosting these new features in a framework established for them.

That's all well and good. Unfortunately it's not what I am arguing here. Left 4 Dead 2 should be retroactive with Left 4 Dead 1. The features and environment which are being *established together* can be made to work retroactively with L4D 1.

Valve are a company, and they function through income.

Yes.

That's kind of how it works, but maybe you're new to it, so we'll take baby-steps.

Don't act like a child.

They cannot function entirely through DLC. But, they do have an image and reputation of doing so - for instance, TF2, which has received frequent and sizeable updates for more than a year.

Straw man. I never once said Valve should operate entirely through DLC. But yes, they do have a reputation for having SOME content through DLC.

The thing is - and this is where people seem to be getting their cereal in the wrong bowel - L4D isn't like TF2. Gasp. That's right. They are two different games, and they operate on very different principles.

This is a claim. But how does it help your argument? Are you implying that Left 4 Dead cannot have DLC? Because, ya know, it has.

Somewhere along the line, Valve came to the realisation that the next, truly beneficial step for L4D was to take it to sequel status;

Right. It's a natural and fitting action. BUT FIRST THING IS FIRST. There is promised DLC to be made.

in terms of all-new content, that is what it became. If you think Valve sat around the table, which is to say all one-hundred-plus-however many of them, and said "Let's make a lot of money out of milking this cow", and slyly nodded to each other in unison, I think you are quite mistaken.

Your if-then statement is wrong.

Flush your requiem track down the toilet: the four horsemen are not riding tonight. You are simply being asked to pay for a sequel. Boo hoo.

Right. Boo-hoo. I'm crying. My content shows up with a 50 price tag and I'm supposed to smile.


Now, to your first post in the thread. Where are all these dismissed concerns and arguments? Could you please link me to them? Thanks.

That is the longest post I have ever seen Samon post, by a goddamn longshot. I suggest you stop if you plan on arguing farther, Top Secret.

I suggest you either contribute to the discussion or be quiet.

 

[Sheepo]

L4D2 is set to start with far more content than L4D did have out of the box or does have now. If you felt L4D was worth buying I don't see how you can believe L4D2 doesn't qualify as unworthy of $50.

 

[Kadayi]

Nearly. I am very much willing to pay for it. I am not, however, willing to pay for content that is not retroactive to L4D1. Especially when the content (as demonstrated so far) is not worthy of a full fledged game.

Poster really needs to learn about the intricacies of game design and the introduction of new content into an existing framework and linear environments before posting in future. :dozey:

Poster also needs to learn that endless multiquote = FAIL as well :dozey:

 

[Top Secret]

Poster really needs to learn about the intricacies of game design and the introduction of new content into an existing framework and linear environments before posting in future. :dozey:

So what, they added a new game mode but they can't add some new weapon models?

The point is, it should have been designed to be retroactive from the get go.

 

[Kadayi]

So what, they added a new game mode but they can't add some new weapon models?

So suddenly all you're after is weapon models? I thought you wanted EVERYTHING? Or are suddenly not so sure whether that's actually possible? :dozey:

The existing maps were designed and play tested and tweaked with the 5 existing special infected in mind. You really think in the tight corridors the charger is a good addition to the game? Or the wandering Witch? The maps in L4D2 are bigger for a reason. These are the sort of considerations the poster needs to begin to comprehend in order to understand why it is Valve have gone down the sequel route. If being retroactive means compromising your ideas and producing substandard results, why do it? :dozey:

 

[Paulaner]

really needs to learn about the intricacies of game design and the introduction of new content into an existing framework and linear environments

Totally agreed. People tend to forget that games are software, and not only maps and models. A new AI director probably comes with a lot of refactoring to the original code. In my opinion, these are not things that can be plugged in like a new weapon or texture.

 

[PimpinPenguin]

Five campaigns, a new AI engine, new animations, new effects, new weapons, and so on? There is no way that Valve (or EA or Microsoft) is going to give away that stuff for free.

They did more for TF2. We got new maps, new gamemodes, new weapons, new animations, new minor effects, new achievements. Why couldn't Valve give just a little bit more to L4D they gave loads more content to the other MP games.

 

[Sheepo]

As has already been stated, we're comparing changes of a much different scale and type.

 

[alpha incipiens]

Valve are a company, and they function through income. That's kind of how it works, but maybe you're new to it, so we'll take baby-steps. They cannot function entirely through DLC. But, they do have an image and reputation of doing so - for instance, TF2, which has received frequent and sizeable updates for more than a year. The thing is - and this is where people seem to be getting their cereal in the wrong bowel - L4D isn't like TF2. Gasp. That's right. They are two different games, and they operate on very different principles.

I think this is the point that everyone is missing. If L4D could've been updated like TF2 has been, then Valve would've done it. (It's clear that they wanted to, after all; before L4D's release they said that they were going to have TF2-style DLC, and they've stated that L4D2 was originally going to be DLC before the project got too big.) Since TF2 and L4D are different games, the way new content is going to be developed will obviously be different. Unfortunately, L4D apparently just doesn't lend itself as well to updates as TF2 does, so Valve has done what every other developer in the industry would do: make a sequel instead of an update. It's really not about them selling out or trying to take your money; if they were that kind of company, why would they release free updates for L4D or TF2 in the first place?

 

[Top Secret]

YEAH!

http://kotaku.com/5286185/valve-responds-to-left-4-dead-2-boycott-vows-support-for-original

Gabe says -> Games will have "interoperability". Meaning they are going to have some form of compatibility.

Makes me quite happy.

 

[Danimal]

^

And so the whining ends.

 

[alpha incipiens]

And so the whining ends.

Oh if only.

 

[chimpmunk]

So, people want to buy L4D2 and use it to play the original L4D? Is that what this was all about? That makes no sense at all...

 

[alehm]

Oh wow. Good point there.

Too bad it's what L4D1 was supposed to get:

*Insert Video Here*

How bout checking this video out? I thought this sums it up even better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koM4wyfCA_c