German soldiers in WWII- Murderers or regular men?

[leib10]

Continue the discussion from the "Inglorious Basterds" thread here.

 

[15357]

As with everything, some yes, some no.

 

[xdrive]

Arabs in todays world - Want peace or want war?

 

[Kadayi]

I'd say a man/woman can only be held accountable for his/her actions alone, not those of his/her countrymen/women, unless his/her actions constitute orders that have knowingly caused his/her fellow soldiers to commit atrocities or breach agreed international conventions.

I don't think you can assess the accountability of a soldiers actions either through their inaction against, or their simple compliance with the instructions given to them as duty, unless it is abundantly clear that they fully supported them or were fully aware of what they were participating in.

Arabs in todays world - Want peace or want war?

Care to elaborate on who these Arabs are exactly?

 

[Gargantou]

As with everything, some yes, some no.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

For me, murderer's in war are those that kill when they don't have to, for example target civilians even though they've not been ordered to. Or maybe shoot surrendered enemies.

However, there are murderers for me, that follow all the orders etc, murderers for me are those that take pleasure in the killing.

 

[Sparta]

I have a mate of mine whose grandfather was in the Hitler youth. He labels himself a war criminal but he's also spent 14 years building a model plane and he likes to wear sausages on his head while he lounges around in the nude. My mate made a doco about him and its on the local film circuit at the moment, winning some awards.

On topic, I agree with Numbers. There's been quite a few German WWII soldiers who have gone on to live fulfilling lives.

 

[Shakermaker]

On topic, I agree with Numbers. There's been quite a few German WWII soldiers who have gone on to live fulfilling lives.

I agree wit Numbers as well. Some Wehrmacht officers ended up in the Bundeswehr, the post-war army of West Germany. Same job, different boss.

 

[15357]

I've never seen so many people agree with me here. It makes me think if I'm doing something wrong.

 

[Zaz]

I'm pretty sure that like 98% of them were just like our guys except for the fact that they spoke German.

 

[Solaris]

Well this is a pretty tricky question.

What needs to be established first is that the German soldiers were significantly more prejudiced than our own. After invading Poland, the entire Polish people were abused, murdered, evicted and raped. Virtually every Jew was murdered and often in the most sadistic ways possible.

I wonder if those who say 'Only Hitler was responsible for the holocaust' have ever done any serious study into Nazi Germany? It's VERY hard to find mentions of German soldiers being completely repulsed at what they had to do. At best you will find them saying "I didn't enjoy doing it and requested a transfer, but I recognise it had to be done."

On a massive part, the German infantry were very complicit in war crimes and acts of genocide. Even for the minority who did not murder any civilians, I still hold those morally (but not legally) responsible.

I say each man is responsible for his own actions, if you fight to protect a genocidal state then to hell with you.

 

[Kadayi]

Well this is a pretty tricky question.

What needs to be established first is that the German soldiers were significantly more prejudiced than our own. After invading Poland, the entire Polish people were abused, murdered, evicted and raped. Virtually every Jew was murdered and often in the most sadistic ways possible.

I wonder if those who say 'Only Hitler was responsible for the holocaust' have ever done any serious study into Nazi Germany? It's VERY hard to find mentions of German soldiers being completely repulsed at what they had to do. At best you will find them saying "I didn't enjoy doing it and requested a transfer, but I recognise it had to be done."

On a massive part, the German infantry were very complicit in war crimes and acts of genocide. Even for the minority who did not murder any civilians, I still hold those morally (but not legally) responsible.

I say each man is responsible for his own actions, if you fight to protect a genocidal state then to hell with you.

So by that rationale Solaris you'll be more than willing to accept the UK carpet bombing Cork into the Stone Age, the next time a couple of your 'brave' IRA laddos cross the border and murder some squadies in cold blood yes?

 

[Sulkdodds]

That doesn't really make any sense.

 

[Solaris]

So by that rationale Solaris you'll be more than willing to accept the UK carpet bombing Cork into the Stone Age, the next time a couple of your 'brave' IRA laddos cross the border and murder some squadies in cold blood yes?

The RIRA are based in Belfast, which is currently in the UK.

Also, no IRA is representative of the Irish government, so an attack on the republic of Ireland would not be justified. Nor would it be, even if the Irish government had invaded the north as that would have been a just action.

However, what does this have to do with WW2? Hell I never even mentioned bombing towns, I was talking about the morality of soldiers.

 

[Kadayi]

Even for the minority who did not murder any civilians, I still hold those morally (but not legally) responsible.

You don't recognise the inherent flaw in that argument? Where exactly do you draw the line? If you extend accountability beyond the actions of the individual, there is no limit to whom you can hold responsible given the right arguments. Regardless of where the RIRA are 'based' (I'm curious as to where you get your info on that 'fact' though) I doubt very much whether any of them involved in that shooting stuck around North of the border afterwards. It's almost a certainty that they headed South to lie low, and evade capture and prosecution. Why not provide incentive to the Republic to give them up with a bit of wanton ultra violence, after all if they aren't willingly handing over murderers then surely they are complicit no? Your argument, not mine.

 

[Barnz]

I don't think they're murderers. They simply followed orders, like every soldier does on the field. Not to mention people who were taken from their colonies, and forced to fight in many areas.

 

[Mr Stabby]

War is very morally complicated. If a German soldier was not directly involved in any war crimes then he is not a war criminal.

What about allied bomber crews, was the deliberate bombing of German and Japanese cities not a war crime?

 

[Solaris]

You don't recognise the inherent flaw in that argument? Where exactly do you draw the line? If you extend accountability beyond the actions of the individual, there is no limit to whom you can hold responsible given the right arguments.

Right, imagine you're an Allied and Jewish soldier, you hate the Nazi regime, you've heard the rumours about death camps and are quite sure, that just 100miles behind the enemy lines, tens of thousands of Jewish women and children are being murdered every day.

But stopping you rescuing those people, are a German infantry division, all conscripts. By holding the line, they are enabling more women and children to be murdered every day.

Could you hold any sympathy for these people? Or would you be willing to kill every single one of them to try and rescue your people. When you got there and liberated the camp and found out, had you just got there a day earlier a few thousand women and children would still be alive. Would you hold the soldiers who stood in your way responsible?

I don't know how people can look at what the German Nazi state did and so easily forgive those who played an essential role in it's murderous apparatus.

 

[Kadayi]

Right, imagine you're an Allied and Jewish soldier, you hate the Nazi regime, you've heard the rumours about death camps and are quite sure, that just 100miles behind the enemy lines, tens of thousands of Jewish women and children are being murdered every day.

But stopping you rescuing those people, are a German infantry division, all conscripts. By holding the line, they are enabling more women and children to be murdered every day.

Could you hold any sympathy for these people? Or would you be willing to kill every single one of them to try and rescue your people. When you got there and liberated the camp and found out, had you just got there a day earlier a few thousand women and children would still be alive. Would you hold the soldiers who stood in your way responsible?

I don't know how people can look at what the German Nazi state did and so easily forgive those who played an essential role in it's murderous apparatus.

But what if they don't hold the line? What if as in IB they surrender? What then? I take it you'd be perfectly happy for them to be subjected to abuse, torture and being beaten to death no? And in the event that you were in that situation you'd readily accept it as fair treatment? That by simple virtue of geographic circumstance, upbringing and political situation you found yourself thrust into a war not of your making, that you should be held responsible for the crimes of others, even though, you yourself might be wholly unaware or unable to do anything about them, yes? You'd be happy to be judged in that manner? You mistake ignorance with complicity.

See we aren't discussing what occurs when men fight, we are discussing what occurs when they stop.

 

[Gargantou]

One of the most moving pictures of Germans from WW2 for me, is the one of a German soldier that defies his comrades and stands between them and a group of jewish villagers as they point their rifles at both him and the villagers, sadly, all records point to said soldier later having been summarily executed for treason.

 

[Solaris]

But what if they don't hold the line? What if as in IB they surrender? What then? I take it you'd be perfectly happy for them to be subjected to abuse, torture and being beaten to death no? And in the event that you were in that situation you'd readily accept it as fair treatment? That by simple virtue of geographic circumstance, upbringing and political situation you found yourself thrust into a war not of your making, that you should be held responsible for the crimes of others, even though, you yourself might be wholly unaware or unable to do anything about them, yes? You'd be happy to be judged in that manner?

See we aren't discussing what occurs when men fight, we are discussing what occurs when they stop.

No, if they surrender, they should be treated as POW's.

I read an interesting story the other day, about a Serb soldier who was told he was going on a mission. He found out, to his horror, he had been tasked to a death squad, he pleased with his commanding officer not to make him shoot these innocent muslim civillians. He was told if he didn't, he too would be shot. So the soldier described how he shot a man, then a child, then a woman continually. How he threw up each time he fired a shot. How the people he shot pissed themselves in fear.

The soldier was later arrested by Nato and sentenced to 20 years by the war crimes tribunal at the Hague. I think that's a fair sentence.

 

[Gargantou]

Sounds like he'd be more in need of intense therapy rather than jail.

 

[lame-o]

The German infantry was coaxed into committing genocide like any other human group is vulnerable to. Many are responsible for their crimes, but it's best to forgive what they did when you look at the big picture, and the sad probability that somewhere down the line everyone will have done what they did.

The S.S. on the other hand...

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

The soldier was later arrested by Nato and sentenced to 20 years by the war crimes tribunal at the Hague. I think that's a fair sentence.

I'm curious as to what you think that has achieved?

 

[Solaris]

The German infantry was coaxed into committing genocide like any other human group is vulnerable to. Many are responsible for their crimes, but it's best to forgive what they did when you look at the big picture.

Coaxed into committing genocide? Explain that? It's totally outrageous, the fact is millions of innocent men women and children were wilfully murdered by an evil state. There is no doubt that many, probably the majority of people murdered during the holocaust were killed by evil sadist's who took pleasure in their work.

It's ****ing outrageous that you can just brush off what they did like that, it's not like genocide was a one off thing, it's happened again and again since. In Iraq, in Sudan, in Yugoslavia to name a few. Knowing there are people guilty of genocide at large in this world makes me very angry. Genocide should make us all angry and we should always respond to it with urgency and immediate brutality.

Those complacent in genocide should be punished and killed without hesitation, if it is necessary to stop them.

 

[Kinslayer]

Solaris, you're honestly living in your own little world.

Going back to that Allied Jew example; there have been multiple accounts of Allied soldiers shooting either surrendering Germans or POW Germans "just because". Oh, but that's okay, because every single one of them had already killed a Jew with their bare hands, right?

How about the fact that they're defending their homeland? Would let a bunch of Soviet soldiers who you know are going to try and destroy your entire city in just because you don't agree with your country's leadership? They're protecting more than their country's policies, they're protecting their homeland.

"I was following orders" is always paraded as "NOT AN EXCUSE YOURE GUILTY", but really, there isn't anything else you can do if you're given that order. You either do it or get shot yourself. 20 years for describing how sickened you were at doing it is not a justified sentence; it's showing how hypocritical the West is when we deal with our enemies in victory.

By your definition, we should prosecute the carpet bombing crews that carpet bombed Japan, and the flamethrower carriers because flamethrowers are extremely painful, inhumane weapons. But wait, we won! So, it doesn't matter, nevermind.

PS: We've killed more civilians in Iraq than Saddam would have in something like 20 years, if I remember the statistic correctly. Number has probably grown since then.

Edit: Here, found it. And this was two years ago. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...10/AR2006101001442.html?nav=rss_world/mideast

 

[Llama]

ITT: Solaris advocates using extreme force, poor logic and brutal punishments to prevent...oh wait.

*facepalms*

 

[lame-o]

Coaxed into committing genocide? Explain that? It's totally outrageous, the fact is millions of innocent men women and children were wilfully murdered by an evil state. There is no doubt that many, probably the majority of people murdered during the holocaust were killed by evil sadist's who took pleasure in their work.

It's ****ing outrageous that you can just brush off what they did like that, it's not like genocide was a one off thing, it's happened again and again since. In Iraq, in Sudan, in Yugoslavia to name a few. Knowing there are people guilty of genocide at large in this world makes me very angry. Genocide should make us all angry and we should always respond to it with urgency and immediate brutality.

Those complacent in genocide should be punished and killed without hesitation, if it is necessary to stop them.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's human nature, and when genocide ends you shouldn't treat the people who did it like they are less than human. Prevention is one thing, but spitting on someone who did what you'd likely do yourself in the same situation is wrong.

BTW they were coaxed into it just like the people in Rwanda, who were told that their neighbors were cockroaches and deserved to die. There were few who rejected that notion after being spoonfed it all the time.

 

[Solaris]

Solaris, you're honestly living in your own little world.

Going back to that Allied Jew example; there have been multiple accounts of Allied soldiers shooting either surrendering Germans or POW Germans "just because". Oh, but that's okay, because every single one of them had already killed a Jew with their bare hands, right?

No, show me anywhere I've said it's okay to kill a surrendering German? I haven't, I believe in the moral responcability of German soldiers for the holocaust but don't think they should be held legally responsible.

How about the fact that they're defending their homeland? Would let a bunch of Soviet soldiers who you know are going to try and destroy your entire city in just because you don't agree with your country's leadership? They're protecting more than their country's policies, they're protecting their homeland.

WW2 was a war of aggression by the Nazis, they invaded several countries and then the Soviet Union... In what way was Nazi Germany defending itself? From who?? They started it.

"I was following orders" is always paraded as "NOT AN EXCUSE YOURE GUILTY", but really, there isn't anything else you can do if you're given that order. You either do it or get shot yourself. 20 years for describing how sickened you were at doing it is not a justified sentence; it's showing how hypocritical the West is when we deal with our enemies in victory.

If someone tells you to kill 5 women and children, or be shot yourself, I hold the correct action is to try and escape and/or kill you comrades before they kill you.

By your definition, we should prosecute the carpet bombing crews that carpet bombed Japan, and the flamethrower carriers because flamethrowers are extremely painful, inhumane weapons. But wait, we won! So, it doesn't matter, nevermind.

PS: We've killed more civilians in Iraq than Saddam would have in something like 20 years, if I remember the statistic correctly. Number has probably grown since then.

Edit: Here, found it. And this was two years ago. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...10/AR2006101001442.html?nav=rss_world/mideast

This moral equivalence you're trying to argue is pathetic. 'We did carpet bombing and flamethrowers and they had the holocaust, so it's all even stevens'.

It's ridiculous, Nazi Germany was an evil terrible country that HAD to be destroyed. I don't care if we'd have had to carpet bomb every square inch of the country, I'd have supported it and would do in retrospect.

I strongly believe in 'whatever it takes' when it comes to fighting regimes like Nazi Germany.

 

[Laivasse]

"I was following orders" is always paraded as "NOT AN EXCUSE YOURE GUILTY", but really, there isn't anything else you can do if you're given that order. You either do it or get shot yourself. 20 years for describing how sickened you were at doing it is not a justified sentence; it's showing how hypocritical the West is when we deal with our enemies in victory.

This, tbh. It's all very well to call for absolute individual responsibility, and in an ideal world populated from top to bottom with people of cast iron principles, this would work. However, all people are to some degree cowardly, shortsighted, self-interested, and generally just unwilling to expose themselves to risk at another's expense - moreover, they'll always be this way, and we'll always have to deal with the problems this creates.

I don't think you do much to prevent future genocides by depicting perpetrators or collaborators as moral aberrations. What one is more likely to accomplish with that type of perspective is the self-delusion that one is not susceptible to the same type of thinking that led the Germans in WW2 to look the other way. And the delusion that one is incapable of wrongdoing is the most dangerous delusion of all. The truth is that groups of people can be manipulated into jingoism and hatred in much the same way that they can be manipulated into buying a particular brand of coffee. At gunpoint, the practice is even more effective. The best thing we can do is look at it from a humanist point of view, trying to identify such flaws in ourselves, because the fact is that if we ourselves were transported, along with our families, into Nazi Germany in WW2, statistically speaking the chances are that we would not have become any sort of martyrs or heroes against injustice. It's better to ask 'why is that?', and keep our eyes open to the abuses that start at the very top, than point fingers IMO.

 

[Solaris]

Laivasse makes some good points.

 

[Stormy]

Regular people that where brain washed to buggery.

 

[jimbo118]

After invading Poland, the entire Polish people were abused, murdered, evicted and raped.

Wrong. Infact the Russians wtfpooned them after 'liberation' more than the Germans. And lets not forget Katyn.

 

[Solaris]

Wrong. Infact the Russians wtfpooned them after 'liberation' more than the Germans. And lets not forget Katyn.

Not true.
At Katyn, a few thousand were killed.
It's not a competition, but the Germans killed millions of poles, jews, gypsies etc in Poland.

Find me a reputable historian who agrees that the soviet union killed more Poles than the Germans did and I'll agree with you.

 

[jimbo118]

Find me a reputable historian who believes 'the entire Polish people were abused, murdered, evicted and raped'.

 

[Solaris]

Find me a reputable historian who believes 'the entire Polish people were abused, murdered, evicted and raped'.

In addition to about three million Polish Jews (mostly killed in Operation Reinhard), 2.5 million non-Jewish Polish citizens perished during the course of the war. Over two million were ethnic Poles (the remaining 500,000 were mainly ethnic minority Ukrainians and Belarusians living in Poland). The majority of those killed by Nazi Germany were civilians (exceeding military deaths nearly 10:1).[1][2]

Wikipedia

Just read the whole article, millions of poles forced into labour, millions murdered, entire towns burnt to the ground.

 

[aly]

WW2 was a war of aggression by the Nazis, they invaded several countries and then the Soviet Union... In what way was Nazi Germany defending itself? From who?? They started it.

If someone tells you to kill 5 women and children, or be shot yourself, I hold the correct action is to try and escape and/or kill you comrades before they kill you.

It's ridiculous, Nazi Germany was an evil terrible country that HAD to be destroyed. I don't care if we'd have had to carpet bomb every square inch of the country, I'd have supported it and would do in retrospect.

Obviously Nazi Germany was defending itself from the countries they attacked. While it started as a war of aggression, Germany was soon forced onto the defensive. Once Germany was on the defensive, the people were interested in defending the fatherland from the brutal soviet invader.

As for the silly scenario of "trying to escape," that's horribly misguided idealism. The reality is that the civilians will always be worth less to you than your own life. You really don't have a choice in the matter. It's either kill 5 innocents that have no relation to you, or lose your own life, and the civilians die anyways. There are few people who would throw away their lives for stupid idealism... People like that truly don't have any plausible choice; people like that don't deserve punishment, they deserve treatment.

An evil terrible country that deserves to be destroyed regardless of civilian casualties huh? That's ridiculous. First of all, the ordinary civilians have very little to do with the regime, at most they're patriotic about their fatherland. Wiping out the civilian population would be just as bad as the warcrimes that Nazi Germany committed.

An eye for an eye leaves the world blind.

 

[Solaris]

I used to agree with you Aly, but then I read Hitlers willing executioners, and I pretty much changed my mind.

 

[Kinslayer]

I used to agree with you Aly, but then I read Hitlers willing executioners, and I pretty much changed my mind.

I read this about six times, but I couldn't figure out why you would mention this and fail to elaborate on it.

Like Aly said, there's no point in dying for something that changed nothing. Even if you try to run, even if you try to stop your comrades, the civilians are still going to die and you're going to die with them.

(Good first post by the way aly, enjoy your stay here)

 

[jimbo118]

I mostly meant about your 'entire population' remark.

But w/e, Shaker knows I'm a nazi

btw at Katyn, over 20,000 died.

 

[Shakermaker]

I mostly meant about your 'enitire population' remark.

But w/e, Shaker knows I'm a nazi

Jimbo doesn't hurt Jews and stonecutters though. I can personally vouch for that.