Islam - A murderious religion?

Taxman said:
I never though I'd see myself defending Christianity, but here we go:
Are all those from the Old Testament? Because if they are, that would speak more for Judaism than for Christianity. The main message of Christianity isn't to follow old rules, but to follow the example of Jesus. (Although, many who today claim to be Christians are really orthodox Jews, because they spend more time finding quotations in the Old Testament than to read the new.)
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17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
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Jebus is pretty clear on it.

Besides that, does Christianity make any sense when you ignore the Old Testament? Jesus' arrival does not make sense when you ignore things like Original Sin which originated with Adam and Eve, and the Flood which God used to purge the Earth of the sinners.
 
Yeah, Jesus was pretty explicit in saying that you've got to follow the laws of the Old Testament to the letter. TO THE LETTER! D:
 
Seriously, any divergence is a one-way ticket to hell.

The new testament elaborated and embelished on the old rules, but never replaced them.

Paul of Tarsus is the one who contradicts both god and jesus by saying that the old testament is obsolete.

A christian without a backyard full of bodies is a hellbound failure, according to jesus.

Also, once you've killed the people, you need to quarantine yourself until evening, because you touched a dead body.
The rules are very elaborate, but they must be followed if you don't want satan to rape your skeleton forever!
 
I tried bringing these points up during a bible study class last week.

Everyone was all confused until the youth minister tap danced around it and BS'd some explanation about Jesus setting the stage for his crucifixion or something like that. Everyone was like "Oh! It makes sense now!"

At that point I understood exactly how Charlton Heston must have felt.
 
Essentially, everyones being rather pedantic. As someone mentioned before, most people don't follow those exact passages.

And my comment got ignored again ;(
 
Geogaddi said:
I tried bringing these points up during a bible study class last week.

Everyone was all confused until the youth minister tap danced around it and BS'd some explanation about Jesus setting the stage for his crucifixion or something like that. Everyone was like "Oh! It makes sense now!"

At that point I understood exactly how Charlton Heston must have felt.
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Oh yeah, I was meaning to ask you how that went after you mentioned it in that thread the other week. I think some people are so brainwashed that they'll accept any explanation so long as they dont have to challenge their beliefs.
 
586FAC75 said:
How many Christians say/think "Yeah, well, that's leaning on the side of total utter bollocks that is" compared with the amount on Muslims taking every word printed in the Quran as...well, um...Gospel?
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Probably more christians, because there's more of them, and I'd say that fanaticism isn't dependent on religious ideology as much as it's dependent on the individuals involved, and the political forces at work.


ComradeBadger said:
Essentially, everyones being rather pedantic. As someone mentioned before, most people don't follow those exact passages.
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And we're lucky! if everyone actually adhered to the rules in their holy books, then we'd have mass-murder problems.

This is the thing I don't understand. People subscribe to a particular religion, they claim to support it, but then they pick and choose bits from it. Someone might use some obscure quotes to justify why they think gay marriage or porn is bad, but then ignore equally obscure bits about killing your children to discipline them.
 
Like I said, religion is simply used like national identity, to realise an essentially imagined community - it provides justification for your views, and instant points of relation/common ground between those who share such views.

I could elabourate on this point for hours if anyone cares...
 
ComradeBadger said:
Like I said, religion is simply used like national identity, to realise an essentially imagined community - it provides justification for your views, and instant points of relation/common ground between those who share such views.

I could elabourate on this point for hours if anyone cares...
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But why couldn't we base the need for societal unification on something that doesn't need an invisible man in the sky who apparently tells certain people to kill each other? Why can't we simplify it to politics (which I suppose is the idea behind religion) or science?
 
If only to add a small something to the discussion. Heres a verse from the Qur'an that I can assure you is real.

"The [Muslim] believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians - all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good - will have their rewards with their Lord. No fear for them nor will they grieve." Sura 2:62

No I have hardly any knowlege about religious texts (As agnostic as I am) but I'm fairly sure there is nothing like this in any other religion.

However, if I had to join a religion I'd join Islam.
 
Venmoch said:
If only to add a small something to the discussion. Heres a verse from the Qur'an that I can assure you is real.

"The [Muslim] believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians - all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good - will have their rewards with their Lord. No fear for them nor will they grieve." Sura 2:62

No I have hardly any knowlege about religious texts (As agnostic as I am) but I'm fairly sure there is nothing like this in any other religion.

However, if I had to join a religion I'd join Islam.
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If I had to join a religion, I'd be a Pastafarian :LOL: .
 
Venmoch said:
If only to add a small something to the discussion. Heres a verse from the Qur'an that I can assure you is real.

"The [Muslim] believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians - all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good - will have their rewards with their Lord. No fear for them nor will they grieve." Sura 2:62

No I have hardly any knowlege about religious texts (As agnostic as I am) but I'm fairly sure there is nothing like this in any other religion.

However, if I had to join a religion I'd join Islam.
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The operative phrase there is "do good".
In religious terms, doing good means following the crazy laws.
In islamic terms, it means obeying islam.
Everything in the qur'an repeatedly re-enforces that the only acceptable society is one dominated by islamic law.
Everyone else must be subservient to the style of theocracy that currently controls the mideast.
They want that state to encompass the entire world.

Muslims kill christians and jews because they're "sinful" now. They tend to give some rights to women, and other stuff that is not "good".

It's tempting to just cut out the things that sound happy and paste them together. That's what Paul did with the bible.
But that's also massively deceptive, to yourself and to the world at large, and especially to the god you supposedly serve.

See how readily you accepted Islam as the best religion, based on misinterpretation of select quotes?
People don't take religion seriously enough to sit down and actually read - and, crucially, comprehend - the books that are supposedly the basis of existence.

It's the law of the master creature to whom you are a slave, the slightest deviation enforced by an eternity of stabbing pain.
It's not a freaking hallmark card.


Also, Gaddi, what exactly did the guy say?
 
Mechagodzilla said:
See how readily you accepted Islam as the best religion, based on misinterpretation of select quotes?
People don't take religion seriously enough to sit down and actually read - and, crucially, comprehend - the books that are supposedly the basis of existence.
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Except, I've read the Qur'an and have based my opinion on their actual practices as well.

Problem is, if you look at pretty much every mainstream religion theres always some sort of problem in the past.

Yet at the same time theres a large amount of tolerence from muslims in regard to christians. Yet not many instances of the same treatment the other way.
 
bliink said:
But why couldn't we base the need for societal unification on something that doesn't need an invisible man in the sky who apparently tells certain people to kill each other? Why can't we simplify it to politics (which I suppose is the idea behind religion) or science?
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Because at that point in time, there was no science and there were no nationstates.
Religion created traditions that had otherworldly justification, a set of common rules to live by - and gave people a sense of indentity: 'I am a Christian' could be used in the same way that from the early modern period onwards people could identify themselves as 'I am French' etc
 
Venmoch said:
Yet at the same time theres a large amount of tolerence from muslims in regard to christians. Yet not many instances of the same treatment the other way.
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I wonder why...

1) terrorism - they are all muslims :/
2) whining - OMG, Mohammed was drawn in a cartoon, lets start a world war. Grow the **** up, its only a cartoon, and nobody gives a shit what the Koran says. ITS A CARTOON
 
Snaps said:
I wonder why...

1) terrorism - they are all muslims :/
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define the word "all"

wikipedia said:
* October 2, 2004 - Christian terrorist group kills 44 Hindus, wounds 118 in Northeast India.
* January 16, 1997 - Christian Identity terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph bombs a gay nightclub.
* July 27, 1996 - Christian Identity terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph bombs Centennial Olympic Park. Kills 1, wounds 111.
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Snaps said:
2) whining - OMG, Mohammed was drawn in a cartoon, lets start a world war. Grow the **** up, its only a cartoon, and nobody gives a shit what the Koran says. ITS A CARTOON
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you'll have to provide sources that proves the cartoons led to war ...surprisingly enough no one else but you seems to be aware of this "war" you speak of ..oh you mean the war on terror? the same one that's responsible for over 655,000 deaths in iraq as a direct result of lies perpetrated by western nations? ya I can see how no one would be pissed off about that
 
Just remember, don't stereotype.
Whether it's Islam, Judaism, or Christianity.
Your stereotypical idea of a Christian is everything my religion is against.
I believe nearly everyone is going to Heaven (and most certainly Stern :O)
I believe God is a loving, caring being is who full of forgiveness.
I believe God loves all of his Children, they are his Children for goodness sakes. Those of you with kids, don't you love them unconditionally?
I look at my views compared to the views of regular Christians and it's nearly night & day. Makes me wonder about stereotyping Muslims and a lot probably feel the same way I do.
 
I was baptized ..so you're darn tooting I'm going to heaven :LOL:

...in fact I plan on flirting with satan as much as is humanly possible throughout my life and then on my deathbed I'll recant my sins ..all you christians who dont believe in confession and absolving of sins all I can say is: SUCKERS!
 
CptStern said:
I was baptized ..so you're darn tooting I'm going to heaven :LOL:

...in fact I plan on flirting with satan as much as is humanly possible throughout my life and then on my deathbed I'll recant my sins ..all you christians who dont believe in confession and absolving of sins all I can say is: SUCKERS!
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What if a bus runs you over dead when you're not looking?
 
Venmoch said:
Except, I've read the Qur'an and have based my opinion on their actual practices as well.

Problem is, if you look at pretty much every mainstream religion theres always some sort of problem in the past.

Yet at the same time theres a large amount of tolerence from muslims in regard to christians. Yet not many instances of the same treatment the other way.
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That's not a problem in the past, unless the content of the book has changed recently and the world has become a peaceful place.
That concept of "doing good" as crazy theocratic dictatorship - which is what the both christian and muslim texts demand - is the main reason we have all this terrorism and religious conflict both at home and abroad.

The bible is identical in that it also demands an insane theocracy be established. Christians demand that muslims become subservient to them, and the other way around.

And, again, it's self-deceptive to prefer a religion based on acts and not on teachings, especially when those teachings specifically demand that terrorism be wrought.
It is not as though those acts don't happen!
The whole affair on all sides is intellectually bankrupt.
I'm sure you could ignore large chunks of Mein Kampf and pass yourself off as a good person too, but that does not change the fact that you become a nazi.
(godwin's law, lol, except that more have undoubtedly been killed by those following the qur'an than by hitler)

Which reminds me...

"They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers."

--5:72

Contradiction city! Christians are tolerated if they "do good" but the very definition of christian in the qur'an is "doing evil".

That doesn't look like tolerance to me, by the way. If these moderate people really do carry out acts that are overwhelmingly better than god's, and firmly believe that christians are in legitimate danger of going to a very real hell, then why aren't they doing anything to stop it?
I know hell is bullshit, but they don't.
So, five sixths of the population of Earth will burn for eternity and they don't care.
To them, it's an acceptable form of passive-agressive genocide.

Why aren't they trying to save my soul?
 
I see a new thread topic, "Your Personal Hell?"
Hehehe
 
The reason Mein Kampf didn't launch Nazism into a full-blown religion is because there wasn't enough random killings.
 
Uriel said:
Just remember, don't stereotype.
Whether it's Islam, Judaism, or Christianity.
Your stereotypical idea of a Christian is everything my religion is against.
I believe nearly everyone is going to Heaven (and most certainly Stern :O)
I believe God is a loving, caring being is who full of forgiveness.
I believe God loves all of his Children, they are his Children for goodness sakes. Those of you with kids, don't you love them unconditionally?
I look at my views compared to the views of regular Christians and it's nearly night & day. Makes me wonder about stereotyping Muslims and a lot probably feel the same way I do.
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bwahahahaa...omg!

"I believe God loves all of his Children, they are his Children for goodness sakes"

children of what god?

dude you're joking right?
 
My personal favourate argument thats used by religious people in defense of religion is that it give humanity a moral code, they say why should we be nice to other people if we are answerable to know-one.

A great counter is, so the only reason you don't routinely rape women and murder people who you don't like is becuase you don't want god to punish you? You don't think rape is wrong, you just won't do it becuase God will punish you?
 
Yeah, the only reason I'm not the next Harold Shipman or Charles Manson is because of Sunday School.
 
Besides that, virtually every Christian and every Muslim decides his over his own morality as much as an atheist does. Take homosexuality, it's very wrong according to the Bible, it's very clear about that, and homosexuals should even be killed. The fact that there's not many Christians out there who actually follow that "rule against perversion", means that humans have a natural non-religious method of distinguishing between right and wrong (right in this context being the minimalizing of suffering). This means that they too have their own criteria for deciding what's right and wrong, criteria that are independant of God, something they accuse atheists of doing.

But as long as Christians don't kills gays and adulterers (or at the very least, completely shun them from society) they can't claim to follow the absolute good and evil from God. They too make their own decision of what's good and evil to them and are as guilty of anything they accuse atheists of doing.
 
Copt... That's in Egypt FYI. They like killing Christians there. A "minority" does, anyway. When Islam is offended, people die. And the people who die always seem to be the infidels. That's the strange thing. You see, generally, when Christians are upset, other Christians are pretty likely to get it for whatever reason. When Muslims are offended, well, let's not bring up the Italian none in Somalia.

That's how Islam is different: Islam IS the law, and the government because that's what Islam fundamentally is. Christianity, on the other hand, is virtually only a religion. No matter how many Fred Phelps you sprinkle the world with, that's not gonna change. The idea of Islam is that you submit to God, and God wants you to establish a caliphate in which all non-believers must pass you on the right side(or left side, whichever is the dishonorable one), not ride on horses, wear distinctive clothing, etc. Islam is as political as it's religious, and that's why it has such a stranglehold on the world - Seperating the two is not compatible with the people who have been taught all those nice "Jew, your blood is Halal to us" songs, they will rise up and they will kill you or at least endanger your life if you try. Look at Egypt for example. Their previous president got killed for making a peace agreement with Israel.
 
Nemesis6 said:
Copt... That's in Egypt FYI. They like killing Christians there. A "minority" does, anyway. When Islam is offended, people die. And the people who die always seem to be the infidels. That's the strange thing. You see, generally, when Christians are upset, other Christians are pretty likely to get it for whatever reason. When Muslims are offended, well, let's not bring up the Italian none in Somalia.
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so when pro-life terrorists kill an abortion doctor it's because the doctor was christian? or how about when christian terrorists killed 44 hindus ..they were actually christians in disguise?
 
Seems like I need to elaborate - Christianity can never gain as much a political platform as Islam can because that's not one of Christianity's strong points.

By the way, tell me more about those Christian terrorists. A link would help.
 
Funny thing is, Eric Rudolph is going to Heaven according to the Bible.
 
you'll have to provide sources that proves the cartoons led to war ...surprisingly enough no one else but you seems to be aware of this "war" you speak of ..oh you mean the war on terror? the same one that's responsible for over 655,000 deaths in iraq as a direct result of lies perpetrated by western nations? ya I can see how no one would be pissed off about that
Click to expand...

you'll have to provide sources that proves the cartoons led to war ...surprisingly enough no one else but you seems to be aware of this "war" you speak of ..oh you mean the war on terror? the same one that's responsible for over 655,000 deaths in iraq as a direct result of lies perpetrated by western nations? ya I can see how no one would be pissed off about that
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I don't suspect Snaps would've wanted his comment to be read in that way, CptStern.

Reading and interpreting what he said I believe that on one level he was just stating that the violent outcry over either visages or western cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed was misunderstood and not nessecary. He mentioned that the measure those people accross the Middle East and Europe went to convey their personal hurt and disbelief with Western Society and its Political/Social interpretations of Mohammed and Terrorism to be extreme and thought their riots were'nt nessecary. I think without mentioning it he was trying to say that out of his own knowledge he realized Western Societies don't adhere or kowtow to Islamic Law and thought it personally foolish that those riots could be directed in such a personal manner where protesters cried and even professed violence against the west as if they had been somehow betrayed.

I don't think he was infering that the reason we went to war with Iraq was over a Cartoon -- but you did lead his comments in a direction that when you brought it up, I wanted to touch on. Besides he exagerrated the riots in a way that was a figure of speech as also it appeared to him. It's possible this war in Iraq only gave the extreme a reason to even violently protest; whereas before, its people only marched without violence or death threats to the west. Strangely, practioners of Islam here in America did not react -- except for some kid at NCSU who ran over several students in a van over what happened.

Most semites who live in America are'nt afraid to speak their minds peacefully and I know countless people who do and get their points accross without becoming violent. They have businesses to run, families to support and educate plus lifes to lead. From what I understand out of most of them they left the middle east because they're was nothing for them. I know one man who lived in Southern Lebanon who tried to run several businesses and support his now eldest son through schooling while in the country -- but because of the political conditions and for his personal distate for the mindset that permeated some of the people around him in southern Lebanon, he left and came here. He had a method of saying what he thought about the cartoons and he did'nt even have to raise his voice or make a sign to get the people around him to respect his religion or family members.

IMHO, I believe that while were briefly on the topic of the Cartoon Riots that people also consider that they're countless millions and millions who did'nt raise their voices or fist in violence. I just believe such riots were instigated by the extreme -- many who are the way they are because in many ways this world aswell as they're forefathers left them behind while the world went forward. Unfortunately it can't exclusively be their fault, can it? They're was a dark ages in the middle east that is still in many ways prevalent today -- it may be awhile before the religiously extreme settle and become tolerant.

I'd just encourage patience. That I believe is enough for now.
 
^^^ I should learn to express my feeling better. You are spot on
 
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