Islamic Cultural Centre to be built near Ground Zero

[Eejit]

You would if I had any.

 

[15357]

Hey, can I change my vote? I voted for baby Jesus.

 

[Shem]

How can you say that, and then go on to say this:



and THEN say this:



God damn. Hypocrite much? These Muslims have nothing to do with the 9/11 attack, and should not bear the stigma of it. And you really don't know why they'd want to build a Mosque there? It couldn't possibly be because a lot of Muslims live in the area, could it?

I'm caught between two sides, Krynn. One side, common sense, is telling me something about this idea doesn't seem right. I know that 9/11 is in the past and the Muslims that are currently living in America shouldn't bear the burden of that event, but I have this sense of foreshadowing that's making me believe this proposed mosque will do more harm than good. Let me explain: We're still not aware of how they're getting their funding for this $100 million dollar project, and the guy in charge of this whole thing has done some pretty controversial things and said some pretty controversial stuff. For all we know, and this is all clearly assumption, it could turn out to be a radicalized mosque, which would then change the opinions of many people, including mine. I don't want a radicalized mosque so close to Ground Zero that's spreading hate and all that. It'd be disrespectful to the American people.
And then the other side, the law, is telling me something else that's contradictory to common sense. They're allowed to do this because of the principles America was founded on, and I can't deny or ignore those principles.

 

[Solaris]

I voted no. The Quaran contains clear messages condoning things like 9/11, remove those bits and sure.

You wouldn't want a far-right party to build its national offices net to Auschwitz would you?

And no, I'm not comparing Islam to the Nazi party.

 

[Druckles]

And no, I'm not comparing Islam to the Nazi party.

Yes you were.

 

[CptStern]

I voted no. The Quaran contains clear messages condoning things like 9/11, remove those bits and sure.

You wouldn't want a far-right party to build its national offices net to Auschwitz would you?

And no, I'm not comparing Islam to the Nazi party.

yes you are. and it's not even an accurate comparison because these muslims had absoutely nothing to do with 9/11. your analogy would work better if you said we should round up all germans and have them pay for the crimes of the past because nazis were german


the bible contains plenty of clear hate messages. if that were the sole reasoning for banning something then most if not all religions would be banned outright (we can only dream)

anyways Solaris what should be done with the mosque that's jst a few blocks from ground zero and has been for years? why is this mosque exempt from setting up shop just a few blocks from ground zero? freedom from persecution based on religious ideology is constitutionally protected. should the laws be bent just because of whom it is?

 

[PvtRyan]

I voted no. The Quaran contains clear messages condoning things like 9/11, remove those bits and sure.

You wouldn't want a far-right party to build its national offices net to Auschwitz would you?

And no, I'm not comparing Islam to the Nazi party.

Pretty sure the far-right is on the side of the Jews these days, because Jews aren't Muslims.

So no, I wouldn't mind that as their ideology does not involve hatred of Jews. Would I mind Nazis doing the same? Yes, as their ideology does involve hatred of Jews. It's inherent to being a Nazi, you can't be a Jew-loving Nazi. However, you can be a Muslim who does not condone 9/11 and since these Muslims presumably don't condone 9/11, there is no reason why this would be offensive to victims of 9/11 because the Muslims neither had anything to do with, or approve of 9/11. Is this really that hard?

As for the first paragraph: what the hell, really?

 

[CptStern]

Pretty sure the far-right is on the side of the Jews these days, because Jews aren't Muslims.

also because of this:


http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/End-Times/On-The-Road-To-Armageddon.aspx

 

[T-6000]

I voted no. The Quaran contains clear messages condoning things like 9/11, remove those bits and sure.

You wouldn't want a far-right party to build its national offices net to Auschwitz would you?

And no, I'm not comparing Islam to the Nazi party.

The Bible condones murder and genocide, and yet you don't see me up in arms and against churches being built.

 

[T-6000]

Pretty sure the far-right is on the side of the Jews these days, because Jews aren't Muslims.

So no, I wouldn't mind that as their ideology does not involve hatred of Jews. Would I mind Nazis doing the same? Yes, as their ideology does involve hatred of Jews. It's inherent to being a Nazi, you can't be a Jew-loving Nazi. However, you can be a Muslim who does not condone 9/11 and since these Muslims presumably don't condone 9/11, there is no reason why this would be offensive to victims of 9/11 because the Muslims neither had anything to do with, or approve of 9/11. Is this really that hard?

As for the first paragraph: what the hell, really?

Well, about Nazis, these guys were asses and I have no love for them. But it wasn't only jews they hated. They hated alot of other groups and people, such as Gypsies, Slavs, Colored people, Mentally and Physically handicapped people, believers of Communism, and homosexuals.

Oh damnit, I double posted! Sorry about that, guys. ><

 

[Solaris]

I haven't really thought about the issue in much detail, but I still think this is a pretty relevant point:

Presumably they will read the Quaran in this mosque,

And they will be reading quotes such as these:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29

In a very short distance from where 3000 people were killed becuase of this bullshit? I say no, why would they even want to build a mosque there, where is the money coming from? I don't know the answer to these questions, but I know that I am an enemy of Islam and so I will oppose building centres of propaganda for it within sight of it's greatest crimes.

 

[No Limit]

Solaris, you do realize that there is already a mosque there right? Been there for 40 years.

And why do you ask where the funding is coming from? That must mean you are assuming something about their funding? What's the assumption you are making?

Also, I suppose you oppose building churches next to schools. Because clearly you can't have people preaching that the earth is flat and that science is evil across the street from educational institutions that teach our children.

 

[Asknoone]

In a very short distance from where 3000 people were killed becuase of this bullshit?

Terrorism is hardly exclusively Islamic.

 

[T-6000]

The primary reason why Al Qaeda commenced those terror attacks was because of U.S. Foreign policy, not from what was written in the Koran. Although as much as I disagree with U.S. foreign policy, there was no excuse for murdering over 3,000 people who had no say so over the U.S. Government's policies.

 

[Asknoone]

The clue was covertly hidden in the two big, towering monuments of capitalism.

 

[Krynn72]

I'm caught between two sides, Krynn. One side, common sense, is telling me something about this idea doesn't seem right. I know that 9/11 is in the past and the Muslims that are currently living in America shouldn't bear the burden of that event, but I have this sense of foreshadowing that's making me believe this proposed mosque will do more harm than good. Let me explain: We're still not aware of how they're getting their funding for this $100 million dollar project, and the guy in charge of this whole thing has done some pretty controversial things and said some pretty controversial stuff. For all we know, and this is all clearly assumption, it could turn out to be a radicalized mosque, which would then change the opinions of many people, including mine. I don't want a radicalized mosque so close to Ground Zero that's spreading hate and all that. It'd be disrespectful to the American people.
And then the other side, the law, is telling me something else that's contradictory to common sense. They're allowed to do this because of the principles America was founded on, and I can't deny or ignore those principles.

Everything you fear comes from assumptions that are baseless. Even if its radical, there is still no right for anyone to say no. Radical Churches are allowed to be built wherever, regardless of who it's offensive to. Thats why Westboro hasn't been run out of town. Unless the place becomes a staging ground for violent or otherwise illegal acts, it has every right to exist wherever it damn well pleases. Thats America.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

The primary reason why Al Qaeda commenced those terror attacks was because of U.S. Foreign policy, not from what was written in the Koran. Although as much as I disagree with U.S. foreign policy, there was no excuse for murdering over 3,000 people who had no say so over the U.S. Government's policies.

Terrorist attacks rarely target military or government installations. Intending to kill civilians is kinda what makes it terrorism as opposed to, say, warfare.

 

[Yuri]

The funny thing is that its not even at ground zero. Its several blocks away. And there already IS a mosque only five blocks away.

And by funny, I mean I hate the right wing so god damn much.

It's actually across the street. Ground zero includes everything that collapsed, not just the twin towers. But that doesn't really matter. There's no legal way to stop them, and it's really not very offensive. The city is very compact; it's not too surprising that things get built near Ground Zero.

However, my initial reaction was to wonder why. I heard they planned the grand opening on September 11th, 2011. I found that offensive, because I feel it would be rather disrespectful to the many who died. Not because it is Muslim, but instead because it is irrelevant and unrelated to the attacks. The decade anniversary is not an opportunity to promote yourselves.

Except, the only source for that was some nutjob conservative, so I just took it as dramatic exaggeration. So no, I don't find it offensive and even if it was, there obviously should be no government interference to what they do.

 

[Javert]

There's a strip club the same distance away from Ground Zero. Can a mosque be any worse?

 

[Ridge]

On the one hand, as long as they aren't breaking any laws, they have every right to.
On the other, I kinda wish they would have chosen somewhere not so close to what many people see as the aftermath of the biggest effect Islam has had on the city....

 

[Krynn72]

It's actually across the street. Ground zero includes everything that collapsed, not just the twin towers.

No, its two or three blocks away. 45 park place, in what used to be The Burlington Coat Factory, right next to Amish Market. Closer than I original thought it was, but still not on the site of Ground Zero, you can't even see it from the building.

Also, it isn't even a Mosque. Its an Islamic Cultural Center.

Also, Jon Steward did a funny bit on it.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/tue-august-10-2010-jason-bateman

 

[Eejit]

There's a strip club the same distance away from Ground Zero. Can a mosque be any worse?

The ghosts of the deceased still like a good stipclub, but they hold a grudge against Islam.

 

[xcellerate]

also stripclubs have women with no clothes, where a mosque has women with lots of clothes.

 

[Solaris]

The primary reason why Al Qaeda commenced those terror attacks was because of U.S. Foreign policy, not from what was written in the Koran. Although as much as I disagree with U.S. foreign policy, there was no excuse for murdering over 3,000 people who had no say so over the U.S. Government's policies.

Erm no, this isn't correct. How any secular groups with legitimate grievances would do something this indiscriminate? Very few.

Now, some of these US foreign policy initiatives that so angered them were housing US troops in Saudi Arabia, which was too close to Meca and the support of independence for East-Timor.

These are hardly crimes on the US's part.

 

[Druckles]

Erm no, this isn't correct. How any secular groups with legitimate grievances would do something this indiscriminate? Very few.

Their means does not seem tied to their believes.

You should note that the Nazis were a secular group. Although you're right, they're were quite discriminate with their actions.

 

[Solaris]

Their means does not seem tied to their believes.

You should note that the Nazis were a secular group. Although you're right, they're were quite discriminate with their actions.

Of course the means are tied to their believes. They believe in matrydom, 72 virgins and all that as rewards for suicide bombings, or flying planes into buildings.

 

[Druckles]

Oh, and here I thought 'the means' referred to the innocent people who died, not the people who actually did it.

 

[Dan]

It's a stupid idea, not because of any of the reasons Stern posted in the poll. It's not insulting, it's just stupid because it's antagonizing. It's not secret that a large chunk of America hates Islam. So why go poke them all in the eye?

Say you have a friend who hates mustard for no rational reason. He acts like a jackass when you have mustard on your hotdog. Do you go around eating mustard sandwiches next to him? No, because that just makes you a jackass too.

Nobody benefits from putting the mosque there. It's just a dick move.

 

[Solaris]

It's a stupid idea, not because of any of the reasons Stern posted in the poll. It's not insulting, it's just stupid because it's antagonizing. It's not secret that a large chunk of America hates Islam. So why go poke them all in the eye?

Say you have a friend who hates mustard for no rational reason. He acts like a jackass when you have mustard on your hotdog. Do you go around eating mustard sandwiches next to him? No, because that just makes you a jackass too.

Nobody benefits from putting the mosque there. It's just a dick move.

This, and I may be wrong, but there can't be that many Muslims in America surely? Where do the US Muslims get the money for such a high cost mosque? I bet it's probably funded by Saudi-Arabia, happens a lot in England and then they end up spewing extremist stuff.

 

[PvtRyan]

It's a stupid idea, not because of any of the reasons Stern posted in the poll. It's not insulting, it's just stupid because it's antagonizing. It's not secret that a large chunk of America hates Islam. So why go poke them all in the eye?

Say you have a friend who hates mustard for no rational reason. He acts like a jackass when you have mustard on your hotdog. Do you go around eating mustard sandwiches next to him? No, because that just makes you a jackass too.

Nobody benefits from putting the mosque there. It's just a dick move.

A large number of people also oppose gay marriage, for no rational reason, are we antagonizing them by trying to make it possible? I guess so, but why do you care?

We shouldn't appease the retards. Fuck those morons, lets poke them in the eye some more, maybe they'll learn. Should their dislike of something for irrational reasons trump religious freedom?

 

[Dan]

We shouldn't appease the retards. Fuck those morons, lets poke them in the eye some more, maybe they'll learn. Should their dislike of something for irrational reasons trump religious freedom?

And this is what they are saying:

We shouldn't appease the Muslims. Fuck those towelheads, lets prohibit their mosque, maybe they'll learn. Should their dislike of Christianity trump our way of life?

Now what has been accomplished? Oh right, nothing.

Would a mosque on top of the WTC site accomplish something great for the Muslim community?

 

[PvtRyan]

And this is what they are saying:


Now what has been accomplished? Oh right, nothing.

Well, except of course that one party is denying the other their constitution given freedom based on irrational beliefs on something that doesn't even affect them in any possible way, whereas the other party denies their opponents absolutely nothing.

Again, fuck the fuckers.

Would a mosque on top of the WTC site accomplish something great for the Muslim community?

No, should it need to do that to have a right to exist? Why would it need to do that just because it's a building related to Islam? You can't give me one reason why that is that doesn't boil down to discrimination. And "on top of the WTC site" is a straw-man, that is completely different, not because it's a mosque, but because it's not a memorial that should be there.

 

[Krynn72]

This, and I may be wrong, but there can't be that many Muslims in America surely?

Its estimated that there's about 600,000 Muslims in NYC alone, with around 2 million in the country.

 

[Polaris]

For some conservatives the First Amendment is sometimes the most sacred thing in the world, sometimes mere suggestion....

Also there are no Muslims in USA, they live only in Eurabia ,y'know...

 

[Druckles]

Again, f*** the f***ers.

When you f*** the f***ers you become a f***er. Then by your logic you get f***ed. Then everyone's getting f***ed and no-one can stop the f***ing, and no-one really wants to be f***ed.

No, it's up to some people to take a hit and stop the endless cycle of f***ing.

 

[Krynn72]

When has tolerating intolerance ever improved things? It may be hypocritical, but it results in a net gain for humanity if your intolerance protects the rights of other people.

 

[Cancer]

I think the issue here is that the Mosque is a threat to the Catholic majority of the USA's population. If a religious building is to be built, then there is a potential that it might give a good light on the Islam religion. This is not good because this might allow for an increase in conversions from one religion to Islam, which would go against the whole "One Nation Under God" motto this country has lived by, because then they would be forced to share the title with other religions.

 

[Polaris]

I think the issue here is that the Mosque is a threat to the Catholic majority of the USA's population.

Seriously? Catholics are hardly a majority, rest of your post doesn't make any sense either.

 

[Krynn72]

I think the issue here is that the Mosque is a threat to the Catholic majority of the USA's population. If a religious building is to be built, then there is a potential that it might give a good light on the Islam religion. This is not good because this might allow for an increase in conversions from one religion to Islam, which would go against the whole "One Nation Under God" motto this country has lived by, because then they would be forced to share the title with other religions.

First off, Catholicism isn't the majority. Secondly, why is conversion from one religion which believes in God to another one that also believes in God against the whole "One Nation Under God" motto? Thirdly, why should a country founded as a secular country with freedom of religion follow such a stupid motto?

 

[Dan]

When has tolerating intolerance ever improved things? It may be hypocritical, but it results in a net gain for humanity if your intolerance protects the rights of other people.

I won't tolerate your intolerance of intolerance.... oh wait, now who's intolerant?

Pushing principles for the sake of principles stopped working when I was seven and complained every time I thought the world wasn't fair. Since then I have learned that principles are a means to an ends, not an ends themselves. What I am saying is that we have principles so that we can have a happy society. We don't have them simply to live in a principled world.

Seriously the kind of people who advocate this sort of action are the sort of dicks who can't get along with other people because they think that they are righteous shit. Anyone who has to work with other people on a daily basis has some experience with this and some understanding of how to play nice with others. You can be within your legal rights all you want, but that mosque is still a dick move that accomplishes nothing but prove that the backers are huge dicks.