lead is the new gold

[Kadayi]

I'm wondering as to how many of you even know what the **** you're talking about. Frankly no one from Europe shouldn't even comment on laws from another country, seeing as how you don't even know what our culture is like.

I'm not sure what's more amusing the idea of an American saying foreigners have no place commenting on the activities of other nations, or the idea that there is such a thing as an American culture. Would that perhaps be this 'white culture' that Glenn Beck is so elusive on? Maybe you can explain what white culture is given he couldn't?

Also how often exactly does domestic gun ownership result in justified homicide? How often do people successfully fend of the rabid gangs of burglars and rapists that clearly run amok throughout the good old US of A with their AR15s and Glocks? Surely there must be some data available on that front? I mean given the number of domestic deaths as a result of firearms in the US every year dwarves the number of US casualties in Iraq, I'd of thought that surely the pros of domestic gun ownership must outway the cons?

 

[Sheepo]

Great, Maestro came in here and started up a silly poo flinging contes before I had the chance to start this the proper way. Anyway, I can still say that I find this statment:

When a man cares more about having the means to kill his fellow man, rather than to help his fellow man you have to wonder what kind of value system they are operating on.

I look forward to the day when the USA grows up as a country and puts away such foolish things.

Utterly, eye-rollingly, ridiculous.

 

[Lester]

Boys, lemme introduce you to the Remmington 1859.

Hand Cannon taken to a whole different level

 

[VirusType2]

Guns are for women. Real men use their raw fists to pound people into submission.

 

[Maestro]

You really haven't been keeping up with the politics of all this, have you?

You're acting like one of those people who believes there isn't widespread rampant racism and fear of a "HNIC" going on. Like there isn't a Stormfront and other groups growing in numbers anticipating a race war, along with militias growing at an alarming rate.

It's all just innocent gun lovers to you, simply scared of policies that haven't even been proposed or enacted.

Racism doesn't exist! Only Reverse Racism!

Of course this doesn't mean all of them are racists. And they should stop ****ing believing that we're calling them all racists. But it's certainly a large number of people. It's no small ****ing minority of intolerance and bigotry out there. It's racism... it's not an obscure vice. It's rampant, in this country and in others as well.

So let's work out the basic math here:

31% of adults in the US own guns.

What you're saying is that upwards of 16% of the US population is sufficiently frightened of a minority president that they are stocking up on ammunition and firearms?

Now I don't deny there are racists, but frankly there aren't that many to such a degree they'd buy a firearm to defend themselves because of it.

I'm not sure what's more amusing the idea of an American saying foreigners have no place commenting on the activities of other nations, or the idea that there is such a thing as an American culture. Would that perhaps be this 'white culture' that Glenn Beck is so elusive on? Maybe you can explain what white culture is given he couldn't?

Also how often exactly does domestic gun ownership result in justified homicide? How often do people successfully fend of the rabid gangs of burglars and rapists that clearly run amok throughout the good old US of A with their AR15s and Glocks? Surely there must be some data available on that front? I mean given the number of domestic deaths as a result of firearms in the US every year dwarves the number of US casualties in Iraq, I'd of thought that surely the pros of domestic gun ownership must outway the cons?

Let's go over some historical facts before we tackle crime prevention:

-Every government at some point has been rebelled against with force of arms to prevent tyrannical reign

-Governments with a largely unarmed populace do not fear their people

-Governments which do not fear their people become tyrannical

Now, given these facts, I sure as hell want at least a large minority American armed. Especially with things like the Patriot Act (among other things) being enacted. I frankly distrust the government just as much as the Whigs did in the 18th century, particularly because of the disturbing resemblances to the continual increases of authority and taxation and debt in the US.

Let's go into crime statistics in Florida, after a right-to-carry law was enacted.

homicide rate -36%

firearm homicide rate -37%

handgun homicide rate -41%

Across the board that's ~40% reduction in homicide, firearm, and handgun rates. Care to tell me that bad things happen when your populace is armed?

In fact, let's look at the aggregate numbers:

A 40% reduction down to 883 per year is approximately 600 people not being killed each year in homicide.

I'll just let the facts speak for themselves.

Guns are for women. Real men use their raw fists to pound people into submission.

I'm also learning how to do this.

 

[kineaesth]

I'll just let the facts speak for themselves.

I don't know how to interpret statistics without making ridiculous claims about causation and correlation, and I'm bluffing by hoping that you don't either, and that you'll just assume I'm right after I throw numbers at you.

If I was Kadayi I would :dozey:

But I'm not, so I won't. Even though I want to.

 

[VirusType2]

*gets popcorn*

 

[Maestro]

If I was Kadayi I would :dozey:

But I'm not, so I won't. Even though I want to.

Well, let's put it this way: I'm the only person so far who has cited any facts and if you would like I can find multiple examples where, after RTC laws were enacted, there was a noticeable and significant drop in homicide rates. As to citing sources, if you want I could go back and find those exact same facts on the NRA and Brady Campaign websites.

Now, let me make this clear, I am not against regulation and registration but I am against claims that firearms should be removed entirely. I don't think there is even a justification for fully automatic or silencers to be in the hands of citizens.

I wholeheartedly support required training and recertification for a firearm to be carried in public as well as other laws, but the claim that firearms are the root cause of murder is ridiculous.

*gets popcorn*

How can you fight the menace on the streets with your fists covered in butter?!

 

[kineaesth]

Well, let's put it this way: I'm the only person so far who has cited any facts

Yippee?

I can find multiple examples where, after RTC laws were enacted, there was a noticeable and significant drop in homicide rates.

Correlation

causation

Now, let me make this clear, I am not against regulation and registration but I am against claims that firearms should be removed entirely. I don't think there is even a justification for fully automatic or silencers to be in the hands of citizens.

My point was that you're just using statistics as a way to not actually say anything meaningful.

 

[Raziaar]

So let's work out the basic math here:

31% of adults in the US own guns.

What you're saying is that upwards of 16% of the US population is sufficiently frightened of a minority president that they are stocking up on ammunition and firearms?

Now I don't deny there are racists, but frankly there aren't that many to such a degree they'd buy a firearm to defend themselves because of it.

Somebody isn't aware of the piss poor racial relations we have had throughout our history, even recently. Many of those individuals are still alive, and have even spread their intolerance either willingly or inadvertently to their offspring.

Racism isn't one of those things that we've crushed in this country. It's just been swept under the rug and forced underground because of the social stigma. I mean just look at a lot of the discourse recently with people talking about their fears of forced reparations, and their anger towards perceived "affirmative action", especially when it comes to government appointments. Plus all those people just outright against almost anything minority related, regardless of what it is.

I don't even know how you can believe that racism is some obscure vice relegated to only thousands of individuals in the country, or whatever it is you believe when you say that it's such a small number and degree of racists out there.

I didn't say racism was in the majority, I said it's not some small minority. I'd be willing to bet that it's a huge minority of individuals... people who revel in the gun culture. I mean what... you think all these racists out there are some pro gun control liberals or something?

The fear being propagated has very little been about Obama and gun legislation that hasn't even yet presented itself. It's been about Obama being an Marxist Imam, Socialist, Muslim, Nazi, Stalinist, Kenyan, Abortionist in Chief, illegal President. Those are things that have been getting people to buy up ammunition and purchase guns, not fear of him taking away their guns.

If you've been following and reading anything about these individuals doing all this purchasing... it's not so these majority of people can continue to enjoy their lifestyles of hunting and target shooting and general recreation with firearms. It's so they can have a lot of bullets and firepower to protect themselves from this African Warlord that we call a president that is going to round them up, put them in concentration camps that rival what the nazis did and use their money as forced reparations to the black folk.

This is not something I can really provide facts and studies on, especially as they are current events. These are things you have to observe from watching the news(yes, even fox) and reading opposition forums EVERY SINGLE DAY like I do.

We can disagree on this. I'm fine with that. So many people already disagree with it and think that there's no racism at all involved of any significant numbers. I personally find it funny that while reading the Hannity forums I have seen more than one prominent long time member banned for egregious racist comments that the moderators could not simply let slide. All the while the rest of their members go on and on about how none of it is about racism.

 

[Viperidae]

Let's go into crime statistics in Florida, after a right-to-carry law was enacted.

homicide rate -36%

firearm homicide rate -37%

handgun homicide rate -41%

Across the board that's ~40% reduction in homicide, firearm, and handgun rates. Care to tell me that bad things happen when your populace is armed?

In fact, let's look at the aggregate numbers:

A 40% reduction down to 883 per year is approximately 600 people not being killed each year in homicide.

I'll just let the facts speak for themselves.

 

[VirusType2]

That's got to be one of the funniest graphs I've ever seen.

 

[Raziaar]

I just want to know who those 17 pirates are. Surely they're not modern pirates. They have to be remnants of a maritime culture from long ago. Are they landlocked due to lack of proper vintage sailing craft and not enough men to raid and take over museum craft which would not even serve their purposes? Are they all on a single vessel or spanning multiple small ships with skeleton crews? Do they wield modern or historical firearms? What classifies as booty to them, if there are no Spanish Galleons out there full of native gold or silver?

SO MANY QUESTIONS!

 

[Kadayi]

Utterly, eye-rollingly, ridiculous.

Given your lack of a counter argument, you can roll your eyes till the cows come home for all I care.

Let's go over some historical facts before we tackle crime prevention:

-Every government at some point has been rebelled against with force of arms to prevent tyrannical reign

-Governments with a largely unarmed populace do not fear their people

-Governments which do not fear their people become tyrannical

Now, given these facts, I sure as hell want at least a large minority American armed. Especially with things like the Patriot Act (among other things) being enacted. I frankly distrust the government just as much as the Whigs did in the 18th century, particularly because of the disturbing resemblances to the continual increases of authority and taxation and debt in the US.

All governments have been rebelled against at some point? Can you perhaps cite some examples of 'The People' overthrowing a government for me? I mean I can think of a few scenarios where 'The People' have rebelled against a monarchy (French Revolution/English Civil War/Russian revolution) but I can't think of many where they rebelled against an actually elected government. Though I can think of a few where elected governments have been overthrown by military dictators (ironically).

Let's go into crime statistics in Florida, after a right-to-carry law was enacted.

homicide rate -36%

firearm homicide rate -37%

handgun homicide rate -41%

Across the board that's ~40% reduction in homicide, firearm, and handgun rates. Care to tell me that bad things happen when your populace is armed?

In fact, let's look at the aggregate numbers:

A 40% reduction down to 883 per year is approximately 600 people not being killed each year in homicide.

I'll just let the facts speak for themselves.

You've given provided some statistics, but you've not actually provided any references (where are the links exactly? I'm just seeing a totals screen no % drops). Before you go running to Lott or Kleck & Gertz I recommend you read this from Berkeley Media Studies Group on the subject of Defensive Gun Use: -

http://www.bmsg.org/pdfs/myths.pdf

If I was Kadayi I would :dozey:

But I'm not, so I won't. Even though I want to.

You're free to :dozey: anytime you want to KA, I claim no copyright to it.

 

[Sheepo]

Given your lack of a counter argument, you can roll your eyes till the cows come home for all I care.

Okay then.

When a man cares more about having the means to kill his fellow man, rather than to help his fellow man you have to wonder what kind of value system they are operating on.

I look forward to the day when the USA grows up as a country and puts away such foolish things.

So did you think this post through at all or did you just think you could get away with the textbook 'Kadayi Condescending Generalization' manuever without getting called out on it? Do you know the percentage of Americans that even own a gun? Do you have any idea of the reason these people own guns? Do you really think these people consider having the means to kill their fellow man more important than the means to help their fellow man because they do have the means to kill? It's our right to own a weapon to defend ourselves if we so choose, and to consider it a foolish thing only demonstrates a lack of understanding of the importance of having the means to defend those you care about when the forces that are supposed to can't.

Spoiler

Before you call me out on the fact that I can't offer any statistics or evidence in my favor I'd like to point out that I'm pretty bad at finding them. And chances are if I evr found a useful one you would probably just find a reason it's illegitimate. So maybe some one else will do it for me, or maybe you'll tell me that I simply don't know what I'm talking about and every other person in this country is packing heat.

I'd also like to take this oppurtunity to those people (especially the Americans) who have been making condescending and generalized insults to the southern United States. Though it doesn't contain some very stupid people, so does every where else. It has as rich and important a heritage as anywhere else and it deserves some respect.

 

[Kadayi]

So did you think this post through at all or did you just think you could get away with the textbook 'Kadayi Condescending Generalization' manuever without getting called out on it? Do you know the percentage of Americans that even own a gun? Do you have any idea of the reason these people own guns? Do you really think these people consider having the means to kill their fellow man more important than the means to help their fellow man because they do have the means to kill? It's our right to own a weapon to defend ourselves if we so choose, and to consider it a foolish thing only demonstrates a lack of understanding of the importance of having the means to defend those you care about when the forces that are supposed to can't.

Back in the 17th Century living on the frontier I could perhaps see a need for personal self defence, but given we're in the 21st Century now and the rest of the Western world manages to get by perfectly well without guns of all shapes and sizes being freely available to every Tom, Dick and (dirty) Harry with a licence I'd say that time is long past. The sheer number of deaths PA by firearms in the US every year is about 23-24 thousand people. That's the tax in human lives that maintaining that 'right to bear arms' costs. You really think that one civilian life is worth it? That You'd be happy for your future child or grandchildren to potentially pay that tax, simply so other people have the right to strut around with their AR15s thinking they are being bad ass on a weekend?

I mean do you honestly think that in the improbable event that free citizens feel they need to overthrow their democratically elected government (don't like em, vote em out), a few semi-automatics is going to be enough fire power to result in victory against the Military might at the disposal of the government? Not a ****ing chance.

Personally I've love to see some lunatics try, firstly because of the humiliation of their swift defeat, and secondly because that would certainly put the nail in the coffin of public gun ownership.

 

[Sheepo]

Do you honestly believe that there aren't plenty of situations, which occur every day, where owning a gun could save your life, another person's life, or prevent any other horrible crime from being committed? I acknowlege that every person has a duty to be safe and responsible with their gun, and that, though the cases are far less common than those that are, there have been many cases where people have not been. But the day a handful of lives is more important than the personal liberties of an entire nation is the day I move to... I dunno, Mexico.

 

[xcellerate]

Do you honestly believe that there aren't plenty of situations, which occur every day, where owning a gun could not save your life, another person's life, or prevent any other horrible crime from being committed?

maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you asking, "do you believe there aren't daily situations where owning a gun could not save your life?" --> "there aren't situations where owning a gun could not save your life"

That seems worded very awkwardly, or is it just me?

 

[Sheepo]

Fixed.

 

[Kadayi]

Do you honestly believe that there aren't plenty of situations, which occur every day, where owning a gun could save your life, another person's life, or prevent any other horrible crime from being committed? I acknowlege that every person has a duty to be safe and responsible with their gun, and that, though the cases are far less common than those that are, there have been many cases where people have not been. But the day a handful of lives is more important than the personal liberties of an entire nation is the day I move to... I dunno, Mexico.

Did you read the report on actual civilian defensive gun use I posted earlier? The idea that a person who owns a gun will actually save a life is practically a statistical non-event when you look at the cold hard facts. The reality is, it rarely happens and certainly not to the extent that it outweighs the cost in terms of that annual human tax of lives.

You threaten someone with a gun, the likely response is they'll come back at you with one at some point, because a gun is a killing weapon, and in effect you've become a danger to them (People only back down when they are clearly out gunned). The fatality rate from a gunshot wound is significantly higher than from a stabbing or a beating, and its a hell of a lot easier to carry through with a killing using a gun than by any other means, because all you do is point and pull the trigger.

 

[xcellerate]

That's sort of how I feel, I own a few guns but I don't keep them loaded, or near my bed, or on my body, I don't even keep the guns and ammo together. My dad has carried his .357 for 30 years and never needed to draw it in self defense, I've gone my whole life without needing a gun, and the only people I know who have been killed from a firearm either committed suicide or had no chance to defend themselves; like my cousin who was shot and killed while driving her car a few years ago, she probably never even saw the guy with the gun.

Maybe if my hometown wasn't 98.64% white, I'd know more people who have been hurt from firearms. Obviously everybody's experience will be different, but in my situation I just don't think I need to be preparing myself for a situation that realistically will never occur.

edit: hmm, according to the fbi in 2003 my town only had 12 violent crimes; 6 aggravated assaults, 1 rape, and 5 robberies.

 

[Sheepo]

Did you read the report on actual civilian defensive gun use I posted earlier? The idea that a person who owns a gun will actually save a life is practically a statistical non-event when you look at the cold hard facts. The reality is, it rarely happens and certainly not to the extent that it outweighs the cost in terms of that annual human tax of lives.

You threaten someone with a gun, the likely response is they'll come back at you with one at some point, because a gun is a killing weapon, and in effect you've become a danger to them (People only back down when they are clearly out gunned). The fatality rate from a gunshot wound is significantly higher than from a stabbing or a beating, and its a hell of a lot easier to carry through with a killing using a gun than by any other means, because all you do is point and pull the trigger.

No I haven't, I didn't really look at the thread until I saw you respond to what I said. I'll be sure to take a look at that, and that really sounds like a pretty accurate description. However, I still think that when you're placed in a situation with a criminal who has a (or doesn't have) a gun, but you do (too), you're still placed in a far better situation than otherwise. It's unlikely, it's not ideal, but it's better than nothing. Forcing people to be defenseless when there are plenty of real dangers in the world is unfair. In a perfect world, there would be no gang violence, no gun or drug trafficking, no lunatics who go off without warning, but this isn't a perfect world. Some people want protection and they should be allowed to have it. Maybe one day guns will just fade away naturally, but now, we do the best with what we have.

...

The funny thing is, I don't really care much for gun rights at all, to be honest. I was just offended when you insulted America as a whole, as if we're all members of an obsessive gun culture, rather than just a small fraction. As if most people own guns, as if those people might not have perfectly good reasons to think they need protection.

 

[VirusType2]

95% of the people I've met that own firearms are hunters. They hunt during season and they eat the meat.

The others were just friends of mine who are gun fanatics or whatever you call it. Those are the ones that I worry about.

Personally, I think hunting for sport/trophies is despicable.

 

[Dynasty]

I dont know if this has been mentioned yet as its tl:dr

In the UK, we've been having a lead demand spike, fairly recently, dont know what the situation is now though.
People were resorting to stealing the lead from church roofing and drainage pipes. From ***king churches! Its disgusting.

 

[Raziaar]

I dont know if this has been mentioned yet as its tl:dr

In the UK, we've been having a lead demand spike, fairly recently, dont know what the situation is now though.
People were resorting to stealing the lead from church roofing and drainage pipes. From ***king churches! Its disgusting.

Why don't they just steal car batteries.


Plus, we were having a copper demand spike, people stealing copper.

I'd gladly trade your lead shortage for our copper shortage!

 

[Dynasty]

We had a high steel demand a year or so ago, where people were stealing skips from construction sites and from outside people's homes where they were renevating or whatever.

 

[15357]

Because demons and other assorted minions of the netherworld are not affected by bullets.

I'd imagine them as very like the monsters from Doom. Shoot them until they die. Same goes for God as well. God prolly needs something like a few dozen Polaris missiles to finish the job though.

 

[Raziaar]

I'd imagine them as very like the monsters from Doom. Shoot them until they die. Same goes for God as well. God prolly needs something like a few dozen Polaris missiles to finish the job though.

That's all just a fabrication to give humankind hope. In reality, nothing we do will be effective.

 

[Kadayi]

However, I still think that when you're placed in a situation with a criminal who has a (or doesn't have) a gun, but you do (too), you're still placed in a far better situation than otherwise. It's unlikely, it's not ideal, but it's better than nothing. Forcing people to be defenseless when there are plenty of real dangers in the world is unfair.
...

So you'd rather face either bleeding out on the pavement waiting for an ambulance to arrive, or kill a man rather than say hand over your wallet, then report the crime to the police? Do you carry the crown jewels around with you or something? I own some very nice watches, but I sure as shit wouldn't risk my life or the lives (and welfare) of any of my companions over any of them in the event I got jumped whilst out wearing one. Getting killed (or crippled) or killing someone for material goods is a pointless idea if you think about it, and all too often people do end up getting killed, of left badly injured over menial shit like trainers or mobile phones, which is quite tragic really.

A mugger/robber isn't going to shoot, stab or beat a target who complies (there is no benefit to it, because an escalated crime draws more attention), but they certainly will one who resists and threatens them in return.

The funny thing is, I don't really care much for gun rights at all, to be honest. I was just offended when you insulted America as a whole, as if we're all members of an obsessive gun culture, rather than just a small fraction. As if most people own guns, as if those people might not have perfectly good reasons to think they need protection.

Thinking they need them and actually needing them are entirely different things. As it stands keeping this small fraction (as you put it) happy costs a lot of lives every year. Is it really worth it? Or is it more that gun manufacturers promote a lot of this stuff to keep domestic guns sales ticking along?

 

[13LACKBISHOP]

So you'd rather face either bleeding out on the pavement waiting for an ambulance to arrive, or kill a man rather than say hand over your wallet, then report the crime to the police? Do you carry the crown jewels around with you or something? I own some very nice watches, but I sure as shit wouldn't risk my life or the lives (and welfare) of any of my companions over any of them in the event I got jumped whilst out wearing one. Getting killed (or crippled) or killing someone for material goods is a pointless idea if you think about it, and all too often people do end up getting killed, of left badly injured over menial shit like trainers or mobile phones, which is quite tragic really.

A mugger/robber isn't going to shoot, stab or beat a target who complies (there is no benefit to it, because an escalated crime draws more attention), but they certainly will one who resists and threatens them in return.

The police are lazy. Over in England anyway. They don't do jack. Your house could get robbed and they don't arrive till hour's later. If they catch him he will be out in no time. That's if they even put him in prison and not just let him go. Reporting it to the police will achieve little, if not nothing. Also how do you deal with gangs of yobs with hammers and knives that just want to smash up your house and anyone inside? What if the person that breaks into your home is some 6 foot 5 skinhead and you have kids? What do you do then? People need a way to defend themselves because the law does not stick up them. Without a way to defend ourselves we are just victims and thats who people like that go for.

 

[Sheepo]

So you'd rather face either bleeding out on the pavement waiting for an ambulance to arrive, or kill a man rather than say hand over your wallet, then report the crime to the police? Do you carry the crown jewels around with you or something? I own some very nice watches, but I sure as shit wouldn't risk my life or the lives (and welfare) of any of my companions over any of them in the event I got jumped whilst out wearing one. Getting killed (or crippled) or killing someone for material goods is a pointless idea if you think about it, and all too often people do end up getting killed, of left badly injured over menial shit like trainers or mobile phones, which is quite tragic really.

A mugger/robber isn't going to shoot, stab or beat a target who complies (there is no benefit to it, because an escalated crime draws more attention), but they certainly will one who resists and threatens them in return.

You can predict the behavior of a hypothetical assailant all you want, the fact of the matter is, if I suspected I'd be in that sort of situation, I'd like to atleast have the option.

Thinking they need them and actually needing them are entirely different things. As it stands keeping this small fraction (as you put it) happy costs a lot of lives every year. Is it really worth it? Or is it more that gun manufacturers promote a lot of this stuff to keep domestic guns sales ticking along?

Poor phrasing on my part, there are people who have justified reasons to think they may be attacked or something and they are. Take a fun little stroll through downtown Washington DC and you'll get what I mean. Maybe they don't need them, maybe they can run, maybe they can have the police watch their house on a hunch, maybe a thousand things can happen. But the fact is, if a perfectly stable person feels more secure at night with a gun safely and securely stored in their home with the knowledge to use it for their or their loved ones safety, should they not have the right?

Oh, and your bit about gun sales brings about a whole other point. Gun manufacturing is a huge industry which provides thousands of people with jobs. Being around guns is to some people as watching birds or playing sports is to others. It's pretty easy to demonize gun culture by characterizing it as being filled with morons 'who just want to walk around town with an AR15' (you said something like that, don't get fussy if I can't quote you by memory). People like guns. Collecting them, shooting them, hunting (I would rather not get into an argument about hunting right now, let's just pretend it's a non-issue for the purpose of this argument), there are people who grew up around guns and just love them. I'm sure there are plenty of stupid gun enthusiasts and I'm sure there are plenty of intelligent gun enthusiasts. The fact is, there are plenty of people who have lives based around guns.