Military: Gamers less "inhibited"

[K e r b e r o s]

sure you can ...many did during vietnam because they disagreed with the war ..but I see your point ..personally I dont think I could live with that decision knowing full well it was based on lies and that thousands died as a result

Sorry, you can't Hippy-quit out of the military. Your arrested. And then what Freedoms do you have?

When you sign up, you know a fact you could fight for a Truth today, or a lie tomorrow. They still join, either way. Nobodys going to change that.

 

[CptStern]

Sorry, you can't Hippy-quit out of the military. Your arrested. And then what Freedoms do you have?

jailtime is preferable to death or worse becoming a vegetable because you happened to be standing too close to a bomb when it went off

When you sign up, you know a fact you could fight for a Truth today, or a lie tomorrow. They still join, either way. Nobodys going to change that.

I cant believe for a minute that americans (never mind soldiers) would support the invasion of iraq knowing what they know now ..I dont feel sorry for them not one bit ..the information was there from the very beginning, they just didnt want to listen

 

[Nat Turner]

The use of the military is almost always legislated murder. It's unacceptable in all but the worst of defense situations. Pacifism FTW.

 

[Pajari]

Lovin' the military hate in this thread. Mon dieu! Some soldiers posess reactionary opinions! It must be government brainwashing! There are reactionary morons that ignore the facts in all professions. And I'd think that those people who are actually over in Iraq and Afghanistan would have a far, far more lucid view of the situation than we do back home.

Also, clarky003, you are an ungrateful and ignorant moron, k? Thx.

But I digress.

The officer that said playing a game has anything to do with actually making the decision to shoot someone "probably" doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Every gamer in the world knows that he's sitting in front of a monitor or a TV when he's playing a game, and as much as developers and players like to talk about 'immersion' and similar buzzwords, videogames can never achieve even a remote parity of reality with real life, in anything.

In fact, anytime someone talks about this issue, I'm reminded of this article at the Escapist. The author makes some excellent points about combat and how its modeled in video games.

Now, of course, the games can be used to abstract things like small-unit tactics, logistics, or company-level command (and the US military has been using games to do this for a long time- TacOps, for instance), those things that rely less on reflexes and personal experience and more on knowledge and thought. But that doesn't make them an effective recruiting tool.

 

[15357]

Oh yes, all of you military haters will someday see the thousands of iron boots and uniforms and me marching and stomping on your faces. And you will regret that you voted to reduce your own military.



j/k j/k *dodges stone*

Although I do want to join the army....

 

[Razor]

jailtime is preferable to death or worse becoming a vegetable because you happened to be standing too close to a bomb when it went off



I cant believe for a minute that americans (never mind soldiers) would support the invasion of iraq knowing what they know now ..I dont feel sorry for them not one bit ..the information was there from the very beginning, they just didnt want to listen

The problem isn't with the soldiers signing up and joining the military but with the idiots who put Bush in charge. Fine, they didn't know Bush was going to lie to everyone and send in troops but they carried on voting him in for a second term after they knew the facts. Don't blame the soldiers for signing on the dotted line for what they think is right and for a good future in the military, blame the morons who put Bush into power not once but twice.

 

[Razor]

? ..atheists? I didnt mention religion. But imho they're even worse than the people who believed saddam was behind 9/11 because at least they thought they had a valid reason ..those that were against the war and still fought for their country did themselves and their country a disservice

I think my point was that a majority of soldiers being shipped to iraq at the time believed saddam was behind 9/11 ..surely you'd think the powers that be would have straightened them out ...but it's not in their best interests to do so. In fact the majority of americans believed saddam had something to do with 9/11

They weren't doing a disservice to anyone, they were doing their duty. They might of believed what they believe but they trusted their leaders who were democratically elected by the American people.

There are thousands of troops in both Afghanistan and in Iraq who are out not because they believe the Iraq war or the Afghan war is just but because they signed on the dotted line, taken their oath and are doing their duty for themselves and for their friends. There are people in my reserve squadron that were posted to Iraq and fought and killed for their country in Iraq and they can't wait to go back and are looking forward to a possible call up this year to either Iraq or Afghanistan. Are they doing a disservice to their country? no. I'm English and i wouldn't of joined the reserves and hope to join the regulars if i thought they were doing a disservice to anyone. The only soldiers who are doing a disservice to anyone in Iraq are the ones who are committing war crimes and beating up innocent people or attacking prisoners under their care.

 

[CptStern]

They weren't doing a disservice to anyone, they were doing their duty. They might of believed what they believe but they trusted their leaders who were democratically elected by the American people.

you're missing my point, there was ample evidence that bush was lying from the very start ..the problem is that people dont want to believe their president manipulated evidence to start an unnecessary war, they want to believe that their president is a fine upstanding moral god fearing man ...so they turn a blind eye to the truth ..even if it means the deaths of thousands ..to me that is amongst the biggest crime of all

There are thousands of troops in both Afghanistan and in Iraq who are out not because they believe the Iraq war or the Afghan war is just but because they signed on the dotted line, taken their oath and are doing their duty for themselves and for their friends. There are people in my reserve squadron that were posted to Iraq and fought and killed for their country in Iraq and they can't wait to go back and are looking forward to a possible call up this year to either Iraq or Afghanistan. Are they doing a disservice to their country?

yes they are ...you cant see the bigger picture here ..they are partcipating in a crime, they are participating in a grave injustice, they are participating in the destruction of a nation and the slaughter of it's people ...it's time for them to take their head out of the sand and stick up for what's right ..."I'm just doing my job" snt cutting it anymore

I'm English and i wouldn't of joined the reserves and hope to join the regulars if i thought they were doing a disservice to anyone. The only soldiers who are doing a disservice to anyone in Iraq are the ones who are committing war crimes and beating up innocent people or attacking prisoners under their care.

sigh ..the department of defense ordered the torture of prisoners ..they're following orders ..which again makes them all guilty of participating in crimes against humanity. The prosecution in the nuremberg trials convicted many former ss using similiar reasoning

one of the indictments was for:

1. participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of crime against peace

 

[Razor]

That isn't the soldiers fault though, that is the governments. The soldiers have to trust their orders from above and from the government as it's the higher ups in the government that can see the big picture, a big picture the soldiers can't see and must trust to be just and true.

 

[VictimOfScience]

yes they are ...you cant see the bigger picture here ..they are partcipating in a crime, they are participating in a grave injustice, they are participating in the destruction of a nation and the slaughter of it's people ...it's time for them to take their head out of the sand and stick up for what's right ..."I'm just doing my job" snt cutting it anymore

There is nothing unjust about the war in Afghanistan whatsoever. Everyone who fought and died there was doing the world a great service and anyone close to them should be exceedingly proud of what they did.

The war in Iraq, though initiated under false pretenses, is also doing the world a great service, difficult as it may be for some to see that right now. Would you say that all of the fighting we and other allies did in Germany during WWII was also "participating in the destruction of a nation and the slaughter of it's people?" The Iraqis seem to be doing a fine job of destroying themselves on their own. See here.

And if Bush is so bad in everyone's eyes and if the war were actually that illegal, then why in the world isn't the UN doing anything about it??? That's what they are there for after all! If they won't do anything, who will? Canada? :|

Its easy to sit at your desk up there and throw all sorts of stones at the biggest target available isn't it? Why? Because Canada never does anything. You've got no reason to do anything. Maybe someone will give you a reason one day, but right now, no one cares about you, so do yourselves a favor and stay in the shadows a little longer. When you come out of hiding and set foot on the world stage, you will likely see a very different place.

*Disclaimer* - This isn't a flame, its a plea for Mr. Stern (he's not my captain) to be a little less self-righteous for goodness' sake. Not everyone who is in the military and is in any way, shape, or form involved with fighting around the globe is a hired thug of the US. Many of them have morals, principles, and intelligence and act accordingly.

 

[Solaris]

There is nothing unjust about the war in Afghanistan whatsoever. Everyone who fought and died there was doing the world a great service and anyone close to them should be exceedingly proud of what they did.

3,500 civillians were killed by US bombs alone.

The war in Iraq, though initiated under false pretenses, is also doing the world a great service, difficult as it may be for some to see that right now. Would you say that all of the fighting we and other allies did in Germany during WWII was also "participating in the destruction of a nation and the slaughter of it's people?" The Iraqis seem to be doing a fine job of destroying themselves on their own. See here.

The iraqis are fighting against a state imposed onto them, and occupiers enforcing this state.

And if Bush is so bad in everyone's eyes and if the war were actually that illegal, then why in the world isn't the UN doing anything about it??? That's what they are there for after all! If they won't do anything, who will? Canada? :|

The UN is a pupet of the west.

Its easy to sit at your desk up there and throw all sorts of stones at the biggest target available isn't it? Why? Because Canada never does anything. You've got no reason to do anything. Maybe someone will give you a reason one day, but right now, no one cares about you, so do yourselves a favor and stay in the shadows a little longer. When you come out of hiding and set foot on the world stage, you will likely see a very different place.

We're not talking about Canada, don't try and take the focus off the facts.

Edit: And I agree with Stern, all soldiers are responcable for what they do. There are no heroic Allied soldiers in iraq. Par maybe some medics. As a citizen of the English nation though I am also, but to a lesser extent responcable.

 

[Razor]

The iraqis are fighting against a state imposed onto them, and occupiers enforcing this state.

Isn't the Iraqi state a democratically ellected state voted for by the people of Iraq?

Soldiers are out there doing a job and trying their best to stop terrorists suicide bombing markets full of people and murdering elected officials due to them not liking who the people elected. Heroic soldiers are the ones giving their lives everyday to help stop bombings and shootings in Iraq aimed at innocent men, women and children. Hopefully, by the end of the year, a lot of those soldiers will be coming home.

 

[CptStern]

There is nothing unjust about the war in Afghanistan whatsoever. Everyone who fought and died there was doing the world a great service and anyone close to them should be exceedingly proud of what they did.

nothing unjust? they invaded afghanistan disposed of the leaders and for what? because they wanted to find osama? how's that going btw?

The war in Iraq, though initiated under false pretenses, is also doing the world a great service, difficult as it may be for some to see that right now.

doing the world a great service? terrorism has escalated since the war, more people have died as a result than did in almost the entire reign of saddam ...and somehow this was for the better good? then why did they need to lie? why didnt they use legitimate reasons for invading instead of lying? one of the UN security council stipulations for invasion was for humanitarian reasons ..why couldnt they have used that excuse? ...I'll tell you why ..because they couldnt

Would you say that all of the fighting we and other allies did in Germany during WWII was also "participating in the destruction of a nation and the slaughter of it's people?"

oh come on that's like comparing apples to freakin hand gernades

The Iraqis seem to be doing a fine job of destroying themselves on their own. See here.

those people were put in power by the coalition and work for the Iraqi interior ministry

And if Bush is so bad in everyone's eyes and if the war were actually that illegal, then why in the world isn't the UN doing anything about it???

what do you propose they do? invade the US? and it is illegal

That's what they are there for after all! If they won't do anything, who will? Canada? :|

so in other words you're saying "who's going to stop us?" ...doesnt absolve you of wrong doing

Its easy to sit at your desk up there and throw all sorts of stones at the biggest target available isn't it? Why? Because Canada never does anything.

:upstare: you didnt seem to mind when we sent troops to afghanistan or haiti or Bosnia. Frankly I'm a little disappointed that you would take this tactic ..I usually only see it from right wing extremeists

You've got no reason to do anything. Maybe someone will give you a reason one day, but right now, no one cares about you, so do yourselves a favor and stay in the shadows a little longer. When you come out of hiding and set foot on the world stage, you will likely see a very different place.

:upstare: that's completely uncalled for and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I dont need to justify canada's actions or inaction, the canadian government doesnt answer to me

*Disclaimer* - This isn't a flame, its a plea for Mr. Stern (he's not my captain) to be a little less self-righteous for goodness' sake. Not everyone who is in the military and is in any way, shape, or form involved with fighting around the globe is a hired thug of the US. Many of them have morals, principles, and intelligence and act accordingly.

it isnt a flame? what is it then?

again some of you see what you want to see ..I pointed out that simply participating in the invasion and occupation of iraq is the same as participating in a deception that led to the deaths of 10's of thousands ..in no way did I suggest that the soldiers themselves are solely responsible for the deaths of over 100,000 iraqis ..in fact had you been paying attention for the last 2 years you'd see that I put blame squarly on the bush administration

this is an example of how I'm unfairly targeted because I deliver news people dont want to hear ..well I'm sorry but it;s about time some people took responsibility for their actions/inaction

 

[VictimOfScience]

3,500 civillians were killed by US bombs alone.

Yeah, its called a war. You can try as hard as you like to minimize civilian casualties, but they're going to occur. No doubt about it. And that's actually right about where the deaths from the WTC stand and they were completely innocent civilians as well. Any comment on how awful that was?

The UN is a pupet of the west.

The West or the US? Is the West a puppet of the US then? If the UN were such a puppet, the US would have taken them right along to Iraq in the first place. Conclusion? They're not a puppet.

We're not talking about Canada, don't try and take the focus off the facts.

Stern always talk about Canada and how their citizens and government are so much better than the rest of the world, esp. the US and I am just sick of hearing it frankly. Its tiresome and predictable.

Edit: And I agree with Stern, all soldiers are responcable for what they do. There are no heroic Allied soldiers in iraq. Par maybe some medics. As a citizen of the English nation though I am also, but to a lesser extent responcable.

I agree with Razor in saying, "Heroic soldiers are the ones giving their lives everyday to help stop bombings and shootings in Iraq aimed at innocent men, women and children." So to say that there are no heroic Allied soldiers is incredibly insulting to them and the people they have protected/saved/helped in general. Again, the attitude here is decidedly uncaring as much as you might try to be saying the "right thing."

 

[CptStern]

sigh ..victemofscience ..the UN is indeed the puppet of the US ..meaning that they have many member states behind them to manipulate security council votes ...did you know that the US threatened to cut off aid to some countries if they didnt back them in the security council before the war? or how they threaten to cut off aid if they didnt grant US troops and officials immunity from the International Criminal Court? why would they do that?

http://www.ips-dc.org/COERCED.pdf
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/armtwistindex.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/2003/0302twister.htm

Stern always talk about Canada and how their citizens and government are so much better than the rest of the world, esp. the US and I am just sick of hearing it frankly. Its tiresome and predictable.

then it should be no problem finding examples ...I too am sick of every single time someone cant effectively argue their point they resort to personal attacks ...every single time without fail

 

[VictimOfScience]

nothing unjust? they invaded afghanistan disposed of the leaders and for what? because they wanted to find osama? how's that going btw?

Ok, Afghanistan was a mess after we left all of the Mujahideen to fend for themselves after the fighting with the Soviets ended. It turned into a haven for the radical muslim fighter to gather and put their hatred of the West into action. Everyone knows this. It was the known place to start looking for the people responsible for the attacks on the WTC. No, nothing unjust in my eyes.

doing the world a great service? terrorism has escalated since the war, more people have died as a result than did in almost the entire reign of saddam ...and somehow this was for the better good? then why did they need to lie? why didnt they use legitimate reasons for invading instead of lying? one of the UN security council stipulations for invasion was for humanitarian reasons ..why couldnt they have used that excuse? ...I'll tell you why ..because they couldnt

Ok, look how many people died in WWII. Was that for the greater good? Maybe it didn't seem like it at the time, but I'll bet in 50 years, people will be able to see the results of all of this upheaval. You might be dead by then, but the results will still be around.

oh come on that's like comparing apples to freakin hand gernades

Wait, so Hitler is an apple and Bush is a hand grenade? Or is Saddam the apple and Bush the hand grenade? Or is that Hitler? Go through your analogy a bit here please.

those people were put in power by the coalition and work for the Iraqi interior ministry

OK, its still killing their own kind! They'll kill any of their own countrymen if they so much as talk with coalition forces and even if they have nothing to do with coalition forces. Suicide bombs can't discriminate that carefully!

what do you propose they do? invade the US? and it is illegal

No, but if they want to be recognized as the governing power in the world, they had better do something about it. Since this is a fairly unique situation, I don't know what options they have. Invasion? Calm down please.

so in other words you're saying "who's going to stop us?" ...doesnt absolve you of wrong doing

No, what I am saying is that you can complain about how evil the US is til you are blue in the face, but if the world's primary governing committee is going to let them do whatever they want sans consequences, then what in the world can be done at all? Are you going to stop Mr. Bush with your rhetoric on the Halflife2.net website Mr. Stern?

:upstare: you didnt seem to mind when we sent troops to afghanistan or haiti or Bosnia. Frankly I'm a little disappointed that you would take this tactic ..I usually only see it from right wing extremeists

Have they ever been all that involved in any of the theaters you speak of? And how many troops were actually sent? No, I don't mind at all, but sending a small force of troops for political reasons doesn't impress me much. And don't try to lump me into your most hated adversaries--there are no right-wing extremists here (my locale). Only people who are sick of the constant criticism of the US when there is virtually nothing we can do about it for now besides educate people that all republicans are not neo-cons and all democrats are not liberal extremists and that we can actually make this country a place to be respected in the eyes of the world if we only participate in the process of electing officials who can effect change in the current thinking in the WHite House. The constant negative chatter is boring, unhelpful, and risks becoming so hackneyed that it is ignored.

:upstare: that's completely uncalled for and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I dont need to justify canada's actions or inaction, the canadian government doesnt answer to me

No but you mention how your country's muslim population didn't riot or incite violence like you are the only people in the Western world that didn't experience fires and lunacy and death. If you generalize like that, then you may as well be the mouthpiece for the Canadian propaganda machine.

it isnt a flame? what is it then?

A request for you to be less slef-righteous. I guess I should have known it would not make sense to you.

again some of you see what you want to see ..I pointed out that simply participating in the invasion and occupation of iraq is the same as participating in a deception that led to the deaths of 10's of thousands ..in no way did I suggest that the soldiers themselves are solely responsible for the deaths of over 100,000 iraqis ..in fact had you been paying attention for the last 2 years you'd see that I put blame squarly on the bush administration

This doesn't make sense: If you particpate in the invasion and occupation you particpate in a deception that led to all those deaths...so how are you saying they aren't involved?? Their actions led to the deaths according to what you just said! Explain!

this is an example of how I'm unfairly targeted because I deliver news people dont want to hear ..well I'm sorry but it;s about time some people took responsibility for their actions/inaction

Thank you so much for doing your part to help turn the world around! We are all so lucky that you have so much time on your hands to post like crazy! And no, I don't want to hear for the umpteenth time how the US is invloved with another scandal because you know what? Of course we are! This administration is involved with so much shady crap that it boggles the mind! Its just that its nothing new or surprising. The government lied to us? How shocking! We all know things have to change--we just don't want to hear about things we can't help right now.

And as far as people taking responsibility for their actions, who in government is going to do that? Is that what you mean because that's obviously never going to happen. Do you mean gamers who frequent this site? Explain.

sigh ..victemofscience ..the UN is indeed the puppet of the US ..meaning that they have many member states behind them to manipulate security council votes ...did you know that the US threatened to cut off aid to some countries if they didnt back them in the security council before the war? or how they threaten to cut off aid if they didnt grant US troops and officials immunity from the International Criminal Court? why would they do that?

Ugh--so why wasn't anything said about it before? Why didn't these countries communicate with other coutnries or the Secretary about what was going on? Why wasn't anything done? If the UN doesn't care to take care of these matters then this is a pretty sorry state!

then it should be no problem finding examples ...I too am sick of every single time someone cant effectively argue their point they resort to personal attacks ...every single time without fail

Yes, you find examples everytime you mention your people and their great values and great government in comparison to everyone else who seems to always muck up.

And there's no personal attack. Calling someone self-righteous isn't an attack. Its a criticism, but its not an attack.

 

[CptStern]

Ok, Afghanistan was a mess after we left all of the Mujahideen to fend for themselves after the fighting with the Soviets ended. It turned into a haven for the radical muslim fighter to gather and put their hatred of the West into action. Everyone knows this. It was the known place to start looking for the people responsible for the attacks on the WTC. No, nothing unjust in my eyes.

I was referring to the current occupation ..oh and you supported the Mujahideen even though you knew they were radicalised fundamentalists ..in 1983 during ceremonies for Afghanistan day a female journalist asked a delegate woman's rights in the taliban ..the afghani, who without skipping a beat, said "were you in my country I'd show you the consequences for speaking to a man out of turn"

from Reagans Proclomation on Afghanistan day:

"The tragedy of Afghanistan continues as the valiant and courageous Afghan freedom fighters [The Taliban] persevere in standing up against the brutal power of the Soviet invasion and occupation. The Afghan people are struggling to reclaim their freedom, which was taken from them when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in December of 1979.

In this three-year period the Soviet Union has been unable to subjugate Afghanistan. The Soviet forces are pitted against an extraordinary people who, in their determination to preserve the character of their ancient land, have organized an effective and still spreading country-wide resistance. The resistance of the Afghan freedom fighters is an example to all the world of the invincibility of the ideals we in this country hold most dear, the ideals of freedom and independence.

We must also recognize that the sacrifices required to maintain this resistance are very high. Millions have gone into exile as refugees. We will probably never know the numbers of people killed and maimed, poisoned and gased, of the homes that have been destroyed, and of the lives that have been shattered and stricken with grief.

It is, therefore, incumbent upon us as Americans to reflect on the events in Afghanistan, to think about the agony which these brave people bear, and to maintain our condemnation of the continuing Soviet occupation. Our observance again this year of Afghanistan Day on March 21, the Afghan New Year, will recall for all the world America's unflagging sympathy for a determined people, its support for their refugees and commitment to achieving a political settlement for Afghanistan which will free that country from tyranny's yoke. "

Ok, look how many people died in WWII. Was that for the greater good? Maybe it didn't seem like it at the time, but I'll bet in 50 years, people will be able to see the results of all of this upheaval. You might be dead by then, but the results will still be around.


Wait, so Hitler is an apple and Bush is a hand grenade? Or is Saddam the apple and Bush the hand grenade? Or is that Hitler? Go through your analogy a bit here please.

there is no comparing iraq with ww2

OK, its still killing their own kind! They'll kill any of their own countrymen if they so much as talk with coalition forces and even if they have nothing to do with coalition forces. Suicide bombs can't discriminate that carefully!

so you're lumping every iraq as terrorists? not one has a legitimate beef with the coalition for invading their country?


No, but if they want to be recognized as the governing power in the world, they had better do something about it. Since this is a fairly unique situation, I don't know what options they have. Invasion? Calm down please.

No, what I am saying is that you can complain about how evil the US is til you are blue in the face, but if the world's primary governing committee is going to let them do whatever they want sans consequences, then what in the world can be done at all? Are you going to stop Mr. Bush with your rhetoric on the Halflife2.net website Mr. Stern?

so I should shut up then, not have an opinion, and offer absolutely no resistance to something that is injust?

Have they ever been all that involved in any of the theaters you speak of? And how many troops were actually sent? No, I don't mind at all, but sending a small force of troops for political reasons doesn't impress me much. And don't try to lump me into your most hated adversaries--there are no right-wing extremists here (my locale). Only people who are sick of the constant criticism of the US when there is virtually nothing we can do about it for now besides educate people that all republicans are not neo-cons and all democrats are not liberal extremists and that we can actually make this country a place to be respected in the eyes of the world if we only participate in the process of electing officials who can effect change in the current thinking in the WHite House. The constant negative chatter is boring, unhelpful, and risks becoming so hackneyed that it is ignored.

because you choose to ignore facts

No but you mention how your country's muslim population didn't riot or incite violence like you are the only people in the Western world that didn't experience fires and lunacy and death. If you generalize like that, then you may as well be the mouthpiece for the Canadian propaganda machine.

:upstare: stop putting words in my mouth I have never said that nor have I implied it ..my reasoning is clear ..I mentioned canada because I live here and I can SEE it with my own eyes ..I could have used any number of countries that were unaffected by rioting

A request for you to be less slef-righteous. I guess I should have known it would not make sense to you.

there you go again ..it's just utter ****ing bullshit because you dont agree with me you'd rather I shut up ..well I'm not going to because believe it or not I have a right to say what I want. Not once have I ever said that what the US does makes me or my country better ..it's just complete and utter blindsiding in order to mislead and dismiss my points in a reactionary manner

This doesn't make sense: If you particpate in the invasion and occupation you particpate in a deception that led to all those deaths...so how are you saying they aren't involved?? Their actions led to the deaths according to what you just said! Explain!

sigh ..how many times do I have to explain this? by participating in the invasion and occupation they are guilty by association and participation ..not once did suggest/imply that they are solely responsible for every death in iraq

Thank you so much for doing your part to help turn the world around! We are all so lucky that you have so much time on your hands to post like crazy!

dont be a jackass, if you're not going to respond without resorting to condescending comment and idiotic inuendos I'd rather you didnt respond at all. This is typical. It's exactly the same response I get every single time ..but the odd thing that not once was it someone who wasnt american ..not once

 

[Raziaar]

Agh! Quote Wars! <gets cut down mercilessly by the verbal barrage of bullshit from all sides>

 

[Some_God]

Agh! Quote Wars! <gets cut down mercilessly by the verbal barrage of bullshit from all sides>

Yeah... but from what I can tell from all these years visiting these forums, Stern has become a left-wing radical, trying to preach to us what we should and shouldn't do. Sometimes he might not actually state it, but he might imply it, such as the Constitution implies the right of privacy.

Although I do have my doubts about the Bush administration, I know that they aren't the first nor last leaders to lie to their electorate. We live in a world where the average day "joe" has enough problems to deal with. The last thing we need is someone mocking and hounding us for our faults. /endrant :cheers:

 

[CptStern]

Yeah... but from what I can tell from all these years visiting these forums, Stern has become a left-wing radical, trying to preach to us what we should and shouldn't do. Sometimes he might not actually state it, but he might imply it, such as the Constitution implies the right of privacy.

Although I do have my doubts about the Bush administration, I know that they aren't the first nor last leaders to lie to their electorate. We live in a world where the average day "joe" has enough problems to deal with. The last thing we need is someone mocking and hounding us for our faults. /endrant :cheers:

a radical extremist? man you're seriously deluded ..your president makes up false evidence that sends your country to war and your citizens to death yet I'm the radical for pointing it out?

 

[Razor]

As for the UN, the UN when it comes to large scale things like the Iraq war is useless and always has been, as was proved by the Korean war i.e. not allowing the Soviet Union to vote on whether the UN sending troops into South Korea would be justified.

 

[CptStern]

the UN is only as effective as it's member states

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I cant believe for a minute that americans (never mind soldiers) would support the invasion of iraq knowing what they know now ..I dont feel sorry for them not one bit ..the information was there from the very beginning, they just didnt want to listen

Umm, there Americans who went to fight in Iraq, had signed up before or after 9/11. I don't think anyone really knew an Iraq War would be an eventuality.

Overall, you risk such lies and truths when you signup for any military program.

 

[Pajari]

3,500 civillians were killed by US bombs alone.

So, granting freedom to roughly thirty million people isn't worth it because 3500 people died? That's some screwy algebra, right there. You know people had their hands sliced off for minor crimes and that half the population (women) wasn't even allowed so much as a basic education, right?

The iraqis are fighting against a state imposed onto them, and occupiers enforcing this state.

So, the Iraqi National Guard, and Iraqi Army, and the legitimately elected Iraqi government don't enter into the equation at all? Go spout your Maoist bullshit somewhere else, this is getting ridiculous. We 'imposed' the most liberal constitution the Arab world has ever seen on the Iraqi people, and we did it without a smidgen of support from those that would rather let the Islamic world muck about in the middle ages for the rest of eternity.

The UN is a pupet of the west.

Haha, yeah. It sure is. Would you rather give it to Putin, the former KGB agent, or the president of Iran? Maybe Hu Jintao would share his enlightened model for ruling China with the rest of the world if he took over?

We're not talking about Canada, don't try and take the focus off the facts.

If we were originally talking about New Jersey, we're now discussing Mare Tranquilatis. This forum is about nothing but getting off subject.

Edit: And I agree with Stern, all soldiers are responcable for what they do. There are no heroic Allied soldiers in iraq. Par maybe some medics. As a citizen of the English nation though I am also, but to a lesser extent responcable.

That's extremely convenient for you to decry not only the leaders that send troops to war but the troops themselves, from the comfort of one of the richest nations on earth and a country whose military has elevated it to such a prosperous and enlightened state. Grab an AK and hook up with Zarquawi in Baghdad if you truly believe that the only heroes are the Iraqi 'freedom fighters'.

 

[VictimOfScience]

I was referring to the current occupation ..oh and you supported the Mujahideen even though you knew they were radicalised fundamentalists

What?? Where did I ever say I supported them? Don't (like you say I do) put words in my mouth.

there is no comparing iraq with ww2

Mmhmm, comparing one war to another is just unfathomable to you. Okay. I'll stop. :|

so you're lumping every iraq as terrorists? not one has a legitimate beef with the coalition for invading their country?

Nope, just every single one of them that kills innocents, be they "collaborators" or not.

so I should shut up then, not have an opinion, and offer absolutely no resistance to something that is injust?

No, go ahead having your opinion, by all means. How else are you going get 20,000 posts?

because you choose to ignore facts

Ignoring facts. Really? Where?

:upstare: stop putting words in my mouth I have never said that nor have I implied it ..my reasoning is clear ..I mentioned canada because I live here and I can SEE it with my own eyes ..I could have used any number of countries that were unaffected by rioting

Ah, there it is. Putting words in others mouths. I guess we are all guilty of that.

there you go again ..it's just utter ****ing bullshit because you dont agree with me you'd rather I shut up ..well I'm not going to because believe it or not I have a right to say what I want. Not once have I ever said that what the US does makes me or my country better ..it's just complete and utter blindsiding in order to mislead and dismiss my points in a reactionary manner

Enjoy your right. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad does.

sigh ..how many times do I have to explain this? by participating in the invasion and occupation they are guilty by association and participation ..not once did suggest/imply that they are solely responsible for every death in iraq

Guilty is guilty friend. You are lumping and I don't agree with it.

dont be a jackass, if you're not going to respond without resorting to condescending comment and idiotic inuendos I'd rather you didnt respond at all. This is typical. It's exactly the same response I get every single time ..but the odd thing that not once was it someone who wasnt american ..not once

Don't be insulting. Don't stoop to my level. :| And there you go again with your anti-US rhetoric. Stop lumping!

 

[CptStern]

What?? Where did I ever say I supported them? Don't (like you say I do) put words in my mouth.

I thought it was pretty obvious I meant the US there ..why else would I post about reagan?

Mmhmm, comparing one war to another is just unfathomable to you. Okay. I'll stop. :|

are you always a jackass or is that solely reserved for me? WW2 was a war of neccesity, Iraq was a war of opportunity ...massive difference

No, go ahead having your opinion, by all means. How else are you going get 20,000 posts?

again why do you feel the need to be condescending?

Ah, there it is. Putting words in others mouths. I guess we are all guilty of that.

you are yes, but as I proved above I am not

Enjoy your right. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad does.

so now you're comparing me to a relgious fanatic? ..VoS I had no problem debating you in the past but now you've gone beyond insulting and into the rediculous ..I present a shitload of material to prove my points and you offer thinly veiled insults as a reply and little more. It's at the point now that debating you is pointless because even though I have evidence to support my ideas up the wazoo you'd rather resort to insults to dismiss my points ..I thought you had more character than that

Guilty is guilty friend. You are lumping and I don't agree with it.

it is immaterial whether you agree with it or not. The fact is that were any coalition to stand trial (assuming bush was tried for crimes against humanity) they would be found guilty using the same justification that led to the conviction of former ss officers during the nuremberg trails ..that's why the US put pressure on other countries to not sign the International Criminal Court accords

Don't be insulting. Don't stoop to my level. :| And there you go again with your anti-US rhetoric. Stop lumping!

wtf are you talking about? how is that anti-american rhetoric? I plainly said that I only ever experience those reactions from americans, I'm not being anti anything but rather I'm stating a fact based on my experiences on this forum ..so unless you've been following what people have said to me I think I'm better suited to answer that

 

[JNightshade]

Originally Posted by Intelligent People

SHUT UP

Originally Posted by Who Don't Like

AND

Originally Posted by To See

GET

Originally Posted by The Forum

BACK

Originally Posted by Descend Into

ON

Originally Posted by Meaningless Bitching

TOPIC.

Comprende?

 

[VictimOfScience]

Comprende?

Point taken.

Stern, I am going to agree to disagree with you since I hate when other posters get into hugely long and involved post-wars. I think you are borderline as condescending as I am here and I don't concede any of the points from you post above--your reasoning is still bugging the heck out of me and you appear to me as guilty of your complaints about me as I--but I will not carry this on any longer for the sake of everyone else. The Right and Left are so polarized right now as it is--is our "discussion" really helping to solve this?

 

[Pajari]

Comprende?

As if every thread in this entire forum doesn't devolve into a slugfest within 5 pages or less. Welcome to politics.

Oh, and victim, you don't like "hugely long and involved post wars?" What the hell have you been doing for the past two pages of this thread?

 

[VictimOfScience]

Oh, and victim, you don't like "hugely long and involved post wars?" What the hell have you been doing for the past two pages of this thread?

I have been becoming what I hate.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Happens sometimes. Reverse Psychology trick. Its what the Islamic Terror Fundies go for in their videos.

Unfortunately, it fails when someone identifies that trait.

 

[Flyingdebris]

*ignores 3 pages of bullshit*

i'll tell you right now, I'd rather have an army of non-gamers than an army of gamers. Lets humor the thought that maybe us gamers might be a little more desensitized to violence than the average person. But that doesn't change that fact that the grand lot of us are a bunch of nerds that hang out on forums all day and spend a lot of our time sitting down. Most of us were the kids that got picked last in dodgeball. The fact that some of us can pwn Xx1337M4st3r_69xX on the internet doesn't make us any better than someone else in a real life fire fight.

 

[mabufo]

I think you guys are missing the point here ..the military guy isnt talking about training while in the military ..he's saying that they use video games to recruit because gamers have less qualms of shooting someone than a lay person and are ideal candiadates ..in other words ..they dont want people that will question the "why"s but rather they want people who will shoot without question. He's supporting the idea the video games are murder simulators

Video games != real life

It's time to get that straight. I would bet that a good percentage of video game players have never even seen a gun in real life.

 

[Some_God]

The only thing it might help in is general tactics, teamwork, and ammunition use (dont spray, etc). Other than that, w/e.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

The only thing it might help in is general tactics, teamwork, and ammunition use (dont spray, etc). Other than that, w/e.

Judging by the last game of CS I played, it doesn't even build up THOSE. LOL

It's time to get that straight. I would bet that a good percentage of video game players have never even seen a gun in real life.

Eh maybe fired one. I don't think there's anyone who's never seen one.

 

[mabufo]

Eh maybe fired one. I don't think there's anyone who's never seen one.

I mean in the flesh - not on television or in a picture or something like that. Myself, I've fired a few.

 

[15357]

Video games != real life

It's time to get that straight. I would bet that a good percentage of video game players have never even seen a gun in real life.

I've shot some rifles and a revolver.

Anyway, I think there was a study in 2003 which reviewed the military conscripts ability to fire weapons. Apparentely, the FPS gamers fired with more accuracy than their NCOs.

 

[Razor]

I've shot some rifles and a revolver.

Anyway, I think there was a study in 2003 which reviewed the military conscripts ability to fire weapons. Apparentely, the FPS gamers fired with more accuracy than their NCOs.

That might be true, my first time firing a rifle, first time ever shooting a gun at all, i got joint 2nd with a guy who had spent 26weeks in the marines doing nothing else other than weapons.

If it wasn't for some dodgy post, i'd have a marksmanship badge .

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I mean in the flesh - not on television or in a picture or something like that. Myself, I've fired a few.

Maybe if they live in Europe.

 

[Flyingdebris]

i think the fact that you could shoot better was simply cause you probably new more about guns than the average joe shmo as a byproduct of playing games with guns in them. Hell i learned a whole bunch about guns after having played a whole lot of battlefield and hanging out on the planet battlefield forums.

Most people don't know jack about guns, a little knowledge can go a long way into helping you shoot. I would not consider this a bad thing. Better to know how to use a gun than not.