Paris Burning

Well, I'm french, I live in Toulouse right now. Normally, I live in Belgium (neighbour country of france, up north).

When I moved to france a couple of months ago, one of the first things I noticed was the police opression. In Belgium(where I live 99% of the time), policemen are more or less polite. Here in france, I noticed them right away. Opening peoples cardoors and shouting at people who had done nothing wrong. I talked about this to a 'real' french guy, and he said that's what people wanted. That's what people had voted for 3 years ago. Repression. The strong arm of the law if you will. This conversation happened two days before the riots started.

You must understand that the people who are rioting are 2nd and mostly 3rd generation immigrants, living in the banlieu's (also called "cité") of big cities. Banlieu's where built 30/40 years ago as welfare homes. Imagine big white concrete buildings, with a little bit of a green area in between, now filled with grafitti's, litter, cats, and youngsters who have nothing to do all day. They have lived there all their lives. They went to school nearby (in france, you can't choose wich school you go to, except if you go private and pay a lot of €€€) and were put all together in schools where most of them failed miserably or didn't go to after being expelled for the n-th time. Most of them never found a job. Some have older relatives living with them in the banlieu's, and these relatives don't have jobs either. In short, what I'm trying to say is that they don't have any kind of good perspective for the future. They have nothing to do all day, they have no work(just mentionning they live there on their resumé is enough to make sure of it), don't go to school, nothing. Some very rare exceptions do make it, and those more fortunate guys leave the banlieu as soon as they can. So a place like this is a concentrated area of very frustrated folks.

Now add the repressive governement. Policecars patrolling. Searching (harrassing?) random people just because they're outside. Everyday. They did that for years. I saw this afternoon on german television, how they had taped policemen who where fysicaly harming two kids for no reason at all. One of the cops just smacked one of them in the head to make him shut up. It reminds me of south african apartheid sometimes. And the 'catchfrase' if you will of france is "liberté, egalité, fraternité", wich means liberty, equality and brotherhood. What a farce they made of it.

The bucket is full and the tap is still running.

After the so-called incident where the two kids were electrocuted, some of the inhabitants of such banlieu's just HAD to react. They started protesting in the streets. Police came in and there was a fight. Cars got burned, but it wasn't all that bad just yet. What made the riots really take off was Sarkozy, the minister of interior affairs, who commented on national television that the protesters were scum (he said 'racaille', wich puts emphazis on the uselesness of the persons being called it as well as saying they're worthless and evil). After that, he continued his speech by saying he'll clean out the banlieu's with a karsher. A karsher (picture) is a high pressure water pump to clean really dirty things.

From there on the riots have spread across france, for the simple reason that a lot of people living in these banlieu's just had enough. Most aren't litterate enough to go into politics and change things, and those that are get out of there as soon as they can and try to forget about ever being there (exceptions aside, of course). A lot of the rioters are very young (13-16) and don't realize they aren't doing much good by doing al this. But they also just don't care. That's how bad it is. It just can't get worse for them anyway. That's how I see it at least.

Lastly, on the firms being trashed, like that mcDonalds or the renault garage (there were more), it seems most of them are old scores that needed to be settled, like the renault garage, who invested right next to a banlieu to gain benefit of the big-tax adventage this would bring, only not to hire one single person who lived right next to it in the 'ghetto'. Things like that. Of course there's also a lot of random violance.

But it's true that it's not as terrible as a lot of media make it out to be. Except for the people talking about it, and the subway being blocked because a burning car was driven into a station, it doesn't bother me that much in daily business.

If you want to try and understand the issues, try the movie "La Haine". It was shot about 10 years ago and predicted all of this (wich wasn't really hard to do).
 
Gunner said:
It's nonsense really, those savages burn cars every year anyway, they're always looking for an excuse to stir shit up.
I don't condone the way the rioters have acted , but it's venting a great deal of pent-up, rising frustrations due to racial segregation inherent in a lot of French mind-sets and the system. I believe one BBC article was explaining that they felt it was easier for them to get a job as, say, a telemarketing person because there they could have an assumed name and no-one could see their faces to instantly judge them on their colour.

Like I said, I don't condone their means, but I see their problems. They're not "always looking for an excuse to stir shit up" - that's simply ignoring underlying issues and causes.

Element Alpha said:
If you want to try and understand the issues, try the movie "La Haine". It was shot about 10 years ago and predicted all of this (wich wasn't really hard to do).
You're right, that's an absolutely tremendous film.
By the way, that was one of the most interesting and rationally put posts I believe I've ever seen on the Politics forums. Cheers.
 
Element Alpha said:
Well, I'm french, I live in Toulouse right now. Normally, I live in Belgium (neighbour country of france, up north).

When I moved to france a couple of months ago, one of the first things I noticed was the police opression. In Belgium(where I live 99% of the time), policemen are more or less polite. Here in france, I noticed them right away. Opening peoples cardoors and shouting at people who had done nothing wrong. I talked about this to a 'real' french guy, and he said that's what people wanted. That's what people had voted for 3 years ago. Repression. The strong arm of the law if you will. This conversation happened two days before the riots started.

You must understand that the people who are rioting are 2nd and mostly 3rd generation immigrants, living in the banlieu's (also called "cité") of big cities. Banlieu's where built 30/40 years ago as welfare homes. Imagine big white concrete buildings, with a little bit of a green area in between, now filled with grafitti's, litter, cats, and youngsters who have nothing to do all day. They have lived there all their lives. They went to school nearby (in france, you can't choose wich school you go to, except if you go private and pay a lot of €€€) and were put all together in schools where most of them failed miserably or didn't go to after being expelled for the n-th time. Most of them never found a job. Some have older relatives living with them in the banlieu's, and these relatives don't have jobs either. In short, what I'm trying to say is that they don't have any kind of good perspective for the future. They have nothing to do all day, they have no work(just mentionning they live there on their resumé is enough to make sure of it), don't go to school, nothing. Some very rare exceptions do make it, and those more fortunate guys leave the banlieu as soon as they can. So a place like this is a concentrated area of very frustrated folks.

Now add the repressive governement. Policecars patrolling. Searching (harrassing?) random people just because they're outside. Everyday. They did that for years. I saw this afternoon on german television, how they had taped policemen who where fysicaly harming two kids for no reason at all. One of the cops just smacked one of them in the head to make him shut up. It reminds me of south african apartheid sometimes. And the 'catchfrase' if you will of france is "liberté, egalité, fraternité", wich means liberty, equality and brotherhood. What a farce they made of it.

The bucket is full and the tap is still running.

After the so-called incident where the two kids were electrocuted, some of the inhabitants of such banlieu's just HAD to react. They started protesting in the streets. Police came in and there was a fight. Cars got burned, but it wasn't all that bad just yet. What made the riots really take off was Sarkozy, the minister of interior affairs, who commented on national television that the protesters were scum (he said 'racaille', wich puts emphazis on the uselesness of the persons being called it as well as saying they're worthless and evil). After that, he continued his speech by saying he'll clean out the banlieu's with a karsher. A karsher (picture) is a high pressure water pump to clean really dirty things.

From there on the riots have spread across france, for the simple reason that a lot of people living in these banlieu's just had enough. Most aren't litterate enough to go into politics and change things, and those that are get out of there as soon as they can and try to forget about ever being there (exceptions aside, of course). A lot of the rioters are very young (13-16) and don't realize they aren't doing much good by doing al this. But they also just don't care. That's how bad it is. It just can't get worse for them anyway. That's how I see it at least.

Lastly, on the firms being trashed, like that mcDonalds or the renault garage (there were more), it seems most of them are old scores that needed to be settled, like the renault garage, who invested right next to a banlieu to gain benefit of the big-tax adventage this would bring, only not to hire one single person who lived right next to it in the 'ghetto'. Things like that. Of course there's also a lot of random violance.

But it's true that it's not as terrible as a lot of media make it out to be. Except for the people talking about it, and the subway being blocked because a burning car was driven into a station, it doesn't bother me that much in daily business.

If you want to try and understand the issues, try the movie "La Haine". It was shot about 10 years ago and predicted all of this (wich wasn't really hard to do).

thanks :)
 
Glo-Boy said:
[SARCASM][/SARCASM]

There is no such thing as a Jewish race. I hate it when Jews go around talking about how it actually is a race. That's not true and they're all wrong.

Not to say all other religions don't have shortcomings, but that one sure pisses me off.

And what makes you say there is no such thing as a Jewish Race?

Being born Jewish, and not converting to the religious aspect... is being part of an ethnicity group. Just like being mexican, or spanish, or irish, or scottish, or german, etc.
 
No trouble at all. I saw a lot of posts wondering what it was all about and just tryed to answer as much as I could without prejudice.

el Chi said:
By the way, that was one of the most interesting and rationally put posts I believe I've ever seen on the Politics forums. Cheers.

Thanks, I feel honored.
 
After the so-called incident where the two kids were electrocuted, some of the inhabitants of such banlieu's just HAD to react. They started protesting in the streets. Police came in and there was a fight. Cars got burned, but it wasn't all that bad just yet. What made the riots really take off was Sarkozy, the minister of interior affairs, who commented on national television that the protesters were scum (he said 'racaille', wich puts emphazis on the uselesness of the persons being called it as well as saying they're worthless and evil). After that, he continued his speech by saying he'll clean out the banlieu's with a karsher. A karsher (picture) is a high pressure water pump to clean really dirty things.
Thank you Mr Alpha.
 
Element Alpha said:
No trouble at all. I saw a lot of posts wondering what it was all about and just tryed to answer as much as I could without prejudice.



Thanks, I feel honored.
Credit where credit's due!
 
Raziaar said:
And what makes you say there is no such thing as a Jewish Race?

Being born Jewish, and not converting to the religious aspect... is being part of an ethnicity group. Just like being mexican, or spanish, or irish, or scottish, or german, etc.

No, using your same logic, if someone was born christian and didn't really follow the religion, then being christian is like being part of an ethnic group. Jewish has always been a religion, it is not a race.
 
Zeus said:
No, using your same logic, if someone was born christian and didn't really follow the religion, then being christian is like being part of an ethnic group. Jewish has always been a religion, it is not a race.
There is actually a Jewish ethnic group/race. I know some Jews who aren't really 'Jewish' the religion but are ethnically- there are features of the race that are distinctive just like any other.
 
Zeus said:
No, using your same logic, if someone was born christian and didn't really follow the religion, then being christian is like being part of an ethnic group. Jewish has always been a religion, it is not a race.

Tell that to a jew and see how they like it.

Christianity is a completely different case. It's young, and it's based on missionary efforsts, which means its spread amongst many races.
 
Sounds like those rude french are finally getting what was coming to them for a long time. Hopefully the muslems overthrow the government; maybe then the country won't be so rude to foreigners.
 
Honestly, you people need to grow up. Riots are not 'cool' and **** anyone who thinks they are. It's like you people don't give a flying shit about whats going on as long as it pushes your agenda.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174533,00.html

I guess its still yay for riots now huh? Police are being fired upon with shotguns and guess what ladies: The Muslims think they are going to take control of the area.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1513137/posts

"This land belongs to us"
"The police has to stay away. This is our area. We rule this place"

Its just a matter of time before your 'riots' become murder.

EDIT: In case you are too lazy to click on the first article, its about a woman being set on fire.
 
I find it passing strange that it's not really front page news. If riots broke out all over America, would it be front page news? Definantly. Why not this? It's the 12th day of rioting, and... no one here (Australia) seems to care.
 
Honestly, you people need to grow up. Riots are not 'cool' and **** anyone who thinks they are. It's like you people don't give a flying shit about whats going on as long as it pushes your agenda.

What exactly is our agenda again? Wait, who's 'us'?

It seems to me like they have good reason to riot. I don't know much about the situation in France and I don't know much about this supposed 'racial segregation' but judging by Alpha's post they're kind of justified. In riots there will always be thugs who'll take advantage. But perhaps sometimes rioting is necessary and/or inevitable - the poll tax riots here in the 1990s being a perfect example. If the police are beating you down and nobody in authority will listen, what are you going to do? Maybe the only thing you can do is to show them that you will make your voice heard and you will not be suppressed.
 
Sulkdodds said:
What exactly is our agenda again? Wait, who's 'us'?

It seems to me like they have good reason to riot. I don't know much about the situation in France and I don't know much about this supposed 'racial segregation' but judging by Alpha's post they're kind of justified. In riots there will always be thugs who'll take advantage. But perhaps sometimes rioting is necessary and/or inevitable - the poll tax riots here in the 1990s being a perfect example. If the police are beating you down and nobody in authority will listen, what are you going to do? Maybe the only thing you can do is to show them that you will make your voice heard and you will not be suppressed.

I mostly agree but you think setting setting a crippled 50 year old women on fire is justified? I find that completely sick. I think the rioting can be "good" as long as people dont go THAT far. I know thats what you meant though.
 
Like I said, there are always bastards who aren't just striking back against the evil blank black totallitarian helmets of the evil totalitarian evil police (or...whatever). There are always people who are just thugs and really are looking for an excuse to cause trouble. :(
 
Thanks Element Alpha :)

These riots are spookily echoed in the cospiracy-theory game, Deus Ex:

Walton Simmons said:
The riots in paris, its getting to a point where we may not be able to contain it

Bob Page said:
Why contain it? Let it spill over into the schools and churches, let the bodies pile up in the streets. In the end, they'll beg us to save them.

:O
 
Cooper said:
guess what ladies
Yes, I like how you used sexism AND an immature attempt at immasculating your opposition to further your point. All those years in debating school weren't wasted, I see.

And you were very good at disregarding the possibility - nay, probability - that someone who understands the rioters' motivess (and possibly even sympathises with the disenfranchisment and oppression they feel), does NOT, by necessity, condone the acts of violence?

Or is that just a little too ridiculous? :hmph:
 
el Chi said:
And you were very good at disregarding the possibility - nay, probability - that someone who understands the rioters' motivess (and possibly even sympathises with the disenfranchisment and oppression they feel), does NOT, by necessity, condone the acts of violence?

This is one of the more interesting aspects to me. You see, around here, saying you 'understand the rioters motives' equals to saying 'I agree with the violence'.

The debate about the motives of the rioters has yet to really take off. All the high up politicians say they refuse debate as long as the violence goes on. There hasn't been a single speech from one of those politicians that has tryed to adress the underlying issues. They just keep hammering to stop the violence and to augment repression until it stops.

Now, the way I see it, is that they can't expect the rioters to stop like that. The only way it may work is if everyone gets bored with it. But that's quite a long shot, since it has been going on for almost two weeks now. For me, the people being racist or prejudiced about the people living there and who have excluded them from basics like respect, decent education and decent work are just as guilty of the same violence caused by the rioters today. They had a choice and they chose to exclude them. Today they collect what they have seeded.

The whole situation isn't exactly black and white, there are a lot of gray area's. Not every rioter is a person who'd commit murder. But like was stated earlier, it's just inevitable that some real criminals take the opportunity to spread mayhem. I think that, since the riots were inevitable, it can't be held against the rioters' cause. It's just part of it in a way that can't be undone. Social exclusion and poverty doesn't create the nicest demographics after all.

And for the record, I don't agree with all the violance at all. I just understand that it is inevitable. Rationality is a very old woman with an eye-patch and a wooden leg in this story, she lives somewhere in the banlieue all alone with her parrot and nobody cares for what she has to say.
 
kirovman said:
Thanks Element Alpha :)

These riots are spookily echoed in the cospiracy-theory game, Deus Ex:





:O

oh snap...I just noticed that.

Deus ex is a good game though
 
Sulkdodds said:
What exactly is our agenda again? Wait, who's 'us'?

Come on, I have seen plenty of posts in their very thread celebrating the riots and anarchy. There is an entire group of people out their who would like nothing more then to stick it to the man and now their celebrating whats happening in France like Jesus has come back. Excuse me, but I don't see how violating other peoples fundamental rights is the correct form of political expression. There is a difference between civil disobedience and outright anarchy, especially when it endangers others.

And you were very good at disregarding the possibility - nay, probability - that someone who understands the rioters' motivess (and possibly even sympathises with the disenfranchisment and oppression they feel), does NOT, by necessity, condone the acts of violence?

Do you really understand the motives? Perhaps the lack of integration of the Muslims into european society has more to do with the fact that they don't want to assimilate then it does with discrimination. I have not heared of any peaceful protests or calls for justice before this happening. Its just a boiling kettle that they THEMSELVES have helped fuel (not saying it is their sole blame, I understand that the people of France have a hand in it) and now they think its their time to act. By taking over parts of a city, destroying people's property, and causing violence. In our (US) Civil Rights movement we had protests, yes some violence did occur however I don't recall any mass rioting of this scale, more of the violence that did occur was towards the blacks then the other way around. If Dr. King can have his voice heard without setting a woman on fire and burning cars then why can't they? Are they above the expectation of acting with human decency?

Yes, I like how you used sexism AND an immature attempt at immasculating your opposition to further your point. All those years in debating school weren't wasted, I see.

Sorry, I enjoy how I am criticized more for my post then the rioters are for their actions. People get all inflammed over Jack Thompson but when we have people running around shooting at cops and beating people it just gets a little "France deserves it" comment. Excuse me for being upset. However you are right. I should have held my...fingers. I apologize.

Stern, I don't understand your comment. As far as I remember I don't recall saying we should nuke Iraq.
 
no I'm just saying that much like this story many americans look the other way when it comes to iraq because it suits their agenda

also this is not about muslims, this is about the poor disenfranchised people who've had enough, sure there's tons of criminal activity but you just cant paint every rioter with the same brush
 
why is everyone seeking a deeper meaning to riots, THERE ISNT ONE, its just angry people letting out there frustration through destroying stuff
 
The problem with the French riots is that they started from a rational cause (Built-up anger at the police, because they think they are being discriminated by being handled so rough, but as Alpha told us here the French people VOTED for that, but those newest refugees can't know everything), but now they are evolving in a mass street war where everyone and everything is a target. 3 days ago, 300 cars were burned (spelling?:p). 2 days ago, 900 new cars were burned. I haven't seen the news yesterday, but if an old lady got set on fire by extremist muslims, I'm sure the situation will get worse before it will get better.

Remember the words "Violence causes violence". Some extremist people go about destroying everything, and more people who would actually not start something like that join in in the fray. The mass gets weapons and starts firing at police and rescue workers. It won't take long until the police or even the army will react in a violent way too.
 
http://www.pbs.org/hueypnewton/times/times_watts.html


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a0/La_riot_1965.jpg

650811.jpg


LARiots.jpg
 
Well...at least they got someone to study the cause of the riot I suppose, rather than saying "There is no cause, it's because they're French lol"
 
Mr Stabby said:
why is everyone seeking a deeper meaning to riots, THERE ISNT ONE, its just angry people letting out there frustration through destroying stuff
Nothing like this happens without deeper meaning. Sure, the people that that burn schools and kill innocent people are scum, but there's a reason that so many youngsters out on the street protesting, and it's not because they wanna mess around, it's a cry for attention; these people are suffering.
 
A vaild course of action.

When you fealed betrayed by the state, burn down the homes of the rich. Its a formula for sucess.
 
Well, its worked for french peasants in the past.
 
Solaris said:
A vaild course of action.

When you fealed betrayed by the state, burn down the homes of the rich. Its a formula for sucess.

What is it you have against rich people exactly? The only generalisation I can think of that applies to them is they have a more money than the rest of us.
 
kirovman said:
What is it you have against rich people exactly? The only generalisation I can think of that applies to them is they have a more money than the rest of us.

I think many people confuse rich with powerful ..a guy who makes $1 mil a year in real estate isnt the enemy ..the guy who slips a politician a few mil to give away land rights so that he can drill on crown land is
 
CptStern said:
I think many people confuse rich with powerful ..a guy who makes $1 mil a year in real estate isnt the enemy ..the guy who slips a politician a few mil to give away land rights so that he can drill on crown land is

Yeah, because money can lead to power but not necessarily. Power is more often acquired through relationships (maybe from being rich, or having some kind of advantage to offer the people in power). It's the same in any form of government...you get power by establishing relationships with those in charge.
 
I generally don't like Rich people because generally Rich people are snobbish arseholes who have no time for the lower classes.

Generally.
 
CptStern said:
I think many people confuse rich with powerful ..a guy who makes $1 mil a year in real estate isnt the enemy ..the guy who slips a politician a few mil to give away land rights so that he can drill on crown land is

Wrong.

They will both hang.
 
I think that's a bit of an outdated generalisation, I dunno. I haven't met any particularly rich people, so I wouldn't know.

But I read an article in New Scientist, interviewing Billionaire philanthropists Gordon Moore, Azim Premji and John Templeton.
These are very wealthy people who feel it's their responsibility to better humankind outside of their work environment by starting charitable organisations - for example, giving poor children in India help in getting an education.

I think that generalisation would be equally valid if you said:

I generally don't like people because generally people are arseholes who have no time for their fellow man.

Generally.

From just about any category you can think of, there's criminals and there's arseholes. Whether it be rich or poor.

Solaris said:
Wrong.

They will both hang.

What's with the violence? You're no better than George W. Bush.
 
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