When is the death penalty OK?

[CptStern]

you mean like the lynch mobs?

 

[The Mullinator]

In extreme cases of unspeakable crimes where there is absolutely no hope for rahabilitation and keeping the criminal alive would prove to be nothing but a danger to both themselves and all around them.

Death sentences should not be used as punishment or as a way of teaching what is wrong. Rather they should be used to put an end to extreme threats and dangers where there is absolutely no other way of ensuring that the threat can be eliminated.

Thing is there are so few instances like this that I bet there have only been a handful of cases like this in the last several years.

 

[CptStern]

In extreme cases of unspeakable crimes where there is absolutely no hope for rahabilitation and keeping the criminal alive would prove to be nothing but a danger to both themselves and all around them.

Death sentences should not be used as punishment or as a way of teaching what is wrong. Rather they should be used to put an end to extreme threats and dangers where there is absolutely no other way of ensuring that the threat can be eliminated.

Thing is there are so few instances like this that I bet there have only been a handful of cases like this in the last several years.

what about Bernardo? My heart says I'd like to see him dead but my mind tells me otherwise

 

[The Mullinator]

what about Bernardo? My heart says I'd like to see him dead but my mind tells me otherwise

Hard to say. However I doubt that he is an individual that while in prison will be a danger to himself and those around him. If he is not a danger or a threat while in prison then he shouldn't be put to death.

I wouldn't be surprised though if he would rather die. Prison for the rest of your life is not something I would like to live through. In cases like that I really don't know what to say.

 

[CptStern]

I cant see how someone could become a (bigger) threat in jail ..sure they could run a gang, murder fellow inmates etc but usually those kind of offenders get thrown into solitary

look at Jeffery Dahmer ...if there ever was a poster boy for capital punishment Dahmer was it ...he was savagely beaten to death in prison ..far more fitting than a lethal injection

 

[Mith']

In cases like Vidkun Quisling = Death penalty..

 

[short recoil]

Death scentance is "wrong" (i mean it should not be used rather than any moral aspect) because:
-They are not a threat being locked up and therefore do not need removing.
-They serve their scentance instantly, causing 2 things, psychos to not care...they know they'll end up dead soon anyway and also what if you got the wrong guy? ......a life in jail means you've got a life to prove your innocence if you are.
-Killing a defensless man is cowardly, either kill them on the spot when they are dangerous or don't at all.

Apparently it costs a lot more to put someone to death than to keep them in jail for life, with less bureaucracy it would be cheaper but then people would have more "innocents" dying.

Kill a man if you have to but don't make a big deal out of it.

 

[SFLUFAN]

doesnt deter crime either ...so in other words no matter what the cost is ...it just doesnt work. Besides it's about time the US enters the civilised world and leaves such barbaric practices behind

Oohhh here we go again, someone playing the "enlightened" Canadian card. It's such insufferable arrogance that really gets my blood boiling. So what if we want to execute our prisoners? Guess what - we're not the only ones either. It's done in the Caribbean and lots of other 3rd world countires as well? Are they barbaric and uncivilized? Of course you would say no because that's racist and not being "enlightened".m But because it's the hated United States of America, it's ok for you to call us "barbaric" and "uncivilized".

You know what? I consider NOT executing someone to be "barbaric" because it is not the just punishment for their crimes.

Get off your damned high horse and feel free to join the rest of us down here.

 

[Laivasse]

Death scentance is "wrong" (i mean it should not be used rather than any moral aspect) because:
-They are not a threat being locked up and therefore do not need removing.
-They serve their scentance instantly, causing 2 things, psychos to not care...they know they'll end up dead soon anyway and also what if you got the wrong guy? ......a life in jail means you've got a life to prove your innocence if you are.
-Killing a defensless man is cowardly, either kill them on the spot when they are dangerous or don't at all.

Apparently it costs a lot more to put someone to death than to keep them in jail for life, with less bureaucracy it would be cheaper but then people would have more "innocents" dying.

Kill a man if you have to but don't make a big deal out of it.

I agree. There is no circumstance I can think of where there is any justifiable point to the death penalty.

Fair enough, I'm not omniscient and perhaps there might be some unusual and brutal case in which the death penalty is a valid option. In that case, let's not gather around the place of execution singing "ole, ole ole ole", or start congratulating ourselves on what excellent upstanding citizens we are for avoiding execution ourselves. Kill them quietly, quickly, and perhaps even apologetically, not with a song and dance and a bunch of wacky moralising. To kill someone for murder is to punish them with the same act that they're being punished for, after all.

Oohhh here we go again, someone playing the "enlightened" Canadian card.

He's Canadian, well done :thumbs:

 

[SFLUFAN]

Corrected for accuracy!

 

[SFLUFAN]

"To kill someone for murder is to punish them with the same act that they're being punished for, after all."

No it's not. The act of murder is the UNLAWFUL taking of life while an execution is the LAWFUL taking of life. The acts are in no way equivalent unless you're using the standard of the taking of life.

 

[CptStern]

Oohhh here we go again, someone playing the "enlightened" European card.

what Laivasse said

It's such insufferable arrogance that really gets my blood boiling. So what if we want to execute our prisoners? Guess what - we're not the only ones either. It's done in the Caribbean and lots of other 3rd world countires as well?

what does that tell you?

Are they barbaric and uncivilized? Of course you would say no because that's racist and not being "enlightened".m

nope, they're barbaric too (well at least the ones that execute prisoners ...but at least they dont disguise their brutality)

But because it's the hated United States of America, it's ok for you to call us "barbaric" and "uncivilized".

ya that's it :upstare:

You know what? I consider NOT executing someone to be "barbaric" because it is not the just punishment for their crimes.

well good thing you're not running the country, although the current admin is about as "enlightened" as you are

Get off your damned high horse and feel free to join the rest of us down here.

and roll around in the muck with you? no thanks

 

[CptStern]

"To kill someone for murder is to punish them with the same act that they're being punished for, after all."

No it's not. The act of murder is the UNLAWFUL taking of life while an execution is the LAWFUL taking of life. The acts are in no way equivalent unless you're using the standard of the taking of life.

segragation was lawful so was slavery ...doesnt make it right ..any way you look at it it's the same result: it doesnt deter crime and it costs more than simply incarcerating them for life

 

[SFLUFAN]

"what does that tell you?"

It tells me that we're not the only ones who know what true justice is.

 

[SFLUFAN]

segragation was lawful so was slavery ...doesnt make it right ..any way you look at it it's the same result: it doesnt deter crime and it costs more than simply incarcerating them for life

Well that all depends on where you stand now doesn't it?

 

[CptStern]

:upstare:


no one would ever accuse these countries of meteing out justice fairly:


Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Morocco
Myanmar
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States of America
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe



the US is the only 1st world country on that list ...you're up there with the axis of evil ...Iraq, Iran, North korea

 

[CptStern]

Well that all depends on where you stand now doesn't it?

I stand on the side of facts ....you?

 

[SFLUFAN]

Actually I'm from Trinidad and Tobago originally!

We're rather proud of our death penalty and fought long and hard against the Privy Council in the UK to be able to met out justice as we saw fit. It was the meddling of such "civilized" nations as the UK that kept us from being able to excercise our rights as a soverign nation to execute criminals.

 

[CptStern]

Actually I'm from Trinidad and Tobago originally!

We're rather proud of our death penalty and fought long and hard against the Privy Council in the UK to be able to met out justice as we saw fit. It was the meddling of such "civilized" nations as the UK that kept us from being able to excercise our rights as a soverign nation to execute criminals.

and what does that change?

 

[SFLUFAN]

"no one would ever accuse these countries of meteing out justice fairly"

Oh yes - of course they can't met out justice fairly because they don't have the benefit of enlightened Europeans or Canadians to hold their hands and say what a bad thing they are doing and that they should respect the rights of criminals and that they are such bad, bad people for exercising their soverign rights as a nation without interference for international busy bodies.

But go on in your smug self-righteousness of being so "civilized" and "enlightned" which borders on barely concealed racism and superiority at the poor, savage third worlders (and Americans) who dare to execute those who are not worthy of life because of their crimes.

It's all very well for you to say these things in nice and safe Canada. Live in the Caribbean for some period of time and see why we believe in justice in these terms. Then perhaps you will change your smug attitude.

Forgive us poor Americans and 3rd Worlders our sins, oh Great White Canadian Father, that we may overcome our barbaric ways and practices and become as civilized as thou!

 

[CptStern]

"no one would ever accuse these countries of meteing out justice fairly"

China? ya there's an enlightened government
Congo? ...oh ya forgot about all the death and brutality being visited on the civilian populace on a daily basis
North Korea ...hey isnt that country on your invasion short list? ...dont you accuse them of yhuman rights abuses?
Saudi Arabia? nuff said about that one
Zimbabwe? didnt you accuse Mugabe of human rights abuses?
Iraq? oh ya you took care of that despot ...but it's not like the current PM didnt get all trigger happy when given the opportunity

Oh yes - of course they can't met out justice fairly

take a second look at that list ...it's the who's who of worst countries in the world

because they don't have the benefit of enlightened Europeans or Canadians to hold their hands and say what a bad thing they are doing and that they should respect the rights of criminals and that they are such bad, bad people for exercising their soverign rights as a nation without interference for international busy bodies.

oh do shut up about "canadian this and european that" ...I'm me, I dont represent my country

It's all very well for you to say these things in nice and safe Canada.

hmmm I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact we're not all armed to the teeth

Live in the Caribbean for some period of time and see why we believe in justice in these terms.

hmmm I wonder if it has anything to do with extreme poverty?

Then perhaps you will change your smug attitude.

doubt it ...I'm more smarmy than smug :E

Forgive us poor Americans and 3rd Worlders our sins, oh Great White Canadian Father, that we may overcome our barbaric ways and practices and become as civilized as thou!

I doubt it

 

[SFLUFAN]

And yet there are many countries on that list that are stable, democratic nations (Barbados, Trinidad, Dominica, etc.) that have a system of justice that can provide the guilty with a fair trial and in many cases, the guilty go free because of reasonable doubt and yet are able to execute those who are found guilty of crimes worthy of the death penalty.

You conveniently, selectively, and naturally overlook those nations of course to provide me with a list of the worst offenders

 

[CptStern]

And yet there are many countries on that list that are stable, democratic nations (Barbados, Trinidad, Dominica, etc.) that have a system of justice that can provide the guilty with a fair trial and in many cases, the guilty go free because of reasonable doubt and yet are able to execute those who are found guilty of crimes worthy of the death penalty.

You conveniently (and naturally) overlook those of course to provide me with a list of the worst offenders

would you have done otherwise? why would I post something that contradicts what I say? that's your job, not mine

still doesnt change the fact that execution is NOT a deterent

 

[SFLUFAN]

would you have done otherwise? why would I post something that contradicts what I say? that's your job, not mine

still doesnt change the fact that execution is NOT a deterent

Of course it's not a deterent. It's justice.

 

[CptStern]

Of course it's not a deterent. It's justice.

an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth is that it? ..where does rehabilitation fit in? or does it? funny how a country that identifies itself as christian (you're not fooling anyone) would actually ignore one of gods most important commandments "thou shall not kill"

 

[burner69]

You're changing the argument here to try and make anyone against the death penalty to sound like they're racist. The argument here is that killing people for crimes makes you no better than the criminals themselves. That's the argument.

But go on in your smug self-righteousness of being so "civilized" and "enlightned" which borders on barely concealed racism and superiority at the poor, savage third worlders (and Americans) who dare to execute those who are not worthy of life because of their crimes.

Not killing people = more civilised than killing people.

It's all very well for you to say these things in nice and safe Canada. Live in the Caribbean for some period of time and see why we believe in justice in these terms. Then perhaps you will change your smug attitude.

I won't say anything here, because I have never been there, but can understand where you're coming from. If I had more time I'd write more on this, but I'll get back to this tommorrow.

Forgive us poor Americans and 3rd Worlders our sins, oh Great White Canadian Father, that we may overcome our barbaric ways and practices and become as civilized as thou!

You're dramatising this.

 

[SFLUFAN]

It doesn't. For some crimes, there can be no rehabilitation - only permanent removal from society.

 

[CptStern]

It doesn't. For some crimes, there can be no rehabilitation - only permanent removal from society.

lifetime imprisonment isnt enough? justice is NOT about revenge

 

[SFLUFAN]

God's commandment does not say "thou shalt not kill". The commandment says "thou shalt not murder".

 

[SFLUFAN]

lifetime imprisonment isnt enough? justice is NOT about revenge

As much as you'd hate to admit it my dear fellow, sometimes they are one in the same.

 

[CptStern]

God's commandment does not say "thou shalt not kill". The commandment says "thou shalt not murder".

really? so you've seen the original documents that makes that distinction?

funny but my copy of the bible (ok ok I looked it up) says "thou shall not kill"

 

[SFLUFAN]

Must be a translation error.

 

[CptStern]

As much as you'd hate to admit it my dear fellow, sometimes they are one in the same.

says who? you? justice is blind ..innocent until proven guilty etc ..this doesnt sound like revenge to me

 

[CptStern]

Must be a translation error.

which translation? which version? which one was first?

"thou shall not kill" ...jesus is quite clear on that

 

[SFLUFAN]

says who? you? justice is blind ..innocent until proven guilty etc ..this doesnt sound like revenge to me

But you can't deny that there is an element of revenge in the act of justice itself. A party has (allegedly) broken one of society's rules - thus individual might be punished for the transgression. If found guilty, society takes its revenge upon that individual for the transgression through the act of punishment. This revenge takes place within the context of an established legal framework, but it is still at its most base level, an act of revenge.

 

[CptStern]

But you can't deny that there is an element of revenge in the act of justice itself. A party has (allegedly) broken one of society's rules - thus individual might be punished for the transgression. If found guilty, society takes its revenge upon that individual for the transgression.

no, justice is about fairness, not revenge

justice:

The quality of being just; fairness.

The principle of moral rightness; equity.
Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.

The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
Law. The administration and procedure of law.
Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason

 

[T.H.C.138]

you harm me or my loved ones and your dead..simple as that..you rape someone? **** chemical castration,kill the sick ****..you hurt kids? die..simple as that..

why should my taxes go to keeping these PROVEN sick ****s alive in prison? if they can be helped,fine..but honestly most of them will just do it again and again..world would be better off without them..

however,without proof no one should be executed..(see? I am a softy!)

if there is proof,then life in prison is too good for some..quit wasting time and money on rehabilitating people who usually don't want to or can't change..

I know people who will kill someone and all you have to do is buy the guy a 40 oz. beer and point him in the victims direction..should someone like that be allowed to walk the streets?

I am not down with torture..unless the killer tortures his victims,then I say do unto him as he has done unto others...sorry but a friend of mine was shot a while back and I would dearly love his killers to be taken out..too many people everywhere getting killed and the criminals get away with a slap on the wrist,if that..

now give the bad guy a hug and he won't do it any more right? bullshit..the instant you take a life I feel you gave up your rights..you took someone elses right to live and be happy away,so you should lose those rights yourself..THAT would be fair IMO

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Cases of murder showing special circumstances to deserve it. (Horrible violent murder, or one where about 50 witnesses saw him stab the guy 50 times in a parking lot and the cops got him in the act)

And treason (IE: Roseburgs selling nuclear weapons info to Soviets, not someone saying "ihate____")

 

[SFLUFAN]

no, justice is about fairness, not revenge

justice:

The quality of being just; fairness.

The principle of moral rightness; equity.
Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.

The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
Law. The administration and procedure of law.
Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason

And what is fair is for an act of societal revenge to take place within the context of the existing legal framework. Law at it most basic level is an act of formalized revenge for harms committed upon society or upon another that we seek some form of restitution for whether such restitution take the form of a lethal injection or monetary payment.

 

[CptStern]

And what is fair is for an act of societal revenge to take place within the context of the existing legal framework. Law at it most basic level is an act of formalized revenge for harms committed upon society or upon another that we seek some form of restitution for whether such restitution take the form of a lethal injection or monetary payment.

one jurisdictions "reasonable punishment" is anothers misscarriage of justice ...it all depends on how enlightened you are