Helplife2.net: Why doesn't this work?

[ríomhaire]

So my friend put this notion to me, and being a student of natural philosophy I'm interested in knowing why he's wrong.

Suppose you have a tube several lightyears longs, which is full of perfect spheres that fit neatly into it so that each sphere has the same radius as the internal radius of the tube and each sphere is touching off of two more at either side of it.

So, the thing is completely full and you put one extra sphere in at your end. By the average man's intuition and newtonian mechanics a sphere should pop out the other end straight away. Meaning that someone on the other end will see a sphere popping out and know that you put one in the other end. Thus information has travelled faster than the speed of light.

So I assume there's some reason this is wrong. But I thought that points of reference only matter if they are moving/accelerating relative to each other, and in this case, they aren't. The two points of reference should be stationary relative to each other, yes?

Why is this wrong?

 

[Raziaar]

I don't really know what precisely you're asking...

But it would take a while for it to reach the end, since it's just a cascade of reactions going on down the chain as you put the one ball in and(assuming you can even push that much mass) push all the others so that the one on the other end pops out.

What the **** do I know though. Nothing! NOTHING!

 

[Dan]

The force between these spheres will be transmitted by the electronegative force of the electrons in the atoms which make up the spheres. This force, just like any other force, is limited by the speed of light. If a galaxy 10 light years away disappeared, it would take 10 years to detect the gravitational change. The same thing applies to the electrons, they take a very tiny lag to detect the change from the neighbouring atoms.

 

[Omnomnick]

I'd love to see you make a tube a light year long, never mind fill it with balls the same size and get a man to the other end to catch the ball. :dozey:

 

[cabbs]

out of interest, what about aspects of the spheres like compression, and whether all of this is subject to friction, as they are touching the inner edge of the tube?

or are these irrelevent?

 

[NeptuneUK]

Give these spheres a size and mass and then determine the no. of spheres required and amount of energy required to push all these spheres a distance of one diameter.
For shits and giggles of course.

 

[Vegeta897]

The force between these spheres will be transmitted by the electronegative force of the electrons in the atoms which make up the spheres. This force, just like any other force, is limited by the speed of light. If a galaxy 10 light years away disappeared, it would take 10 years to detect the gravitational change. The same thing applies to the electrons, they take a very tiny lag to detect the change from the neighbouring atoms.

So in this scenario to see the ball fall out it would take 2 light years? One for the reaction to cause the ball at the end to fall, and one for the visual to reach the viewer?

 

[NeptuneUK]

So in this scenario to see the ball fall out it would take 2 light years? One for the reaction to cause the ball at the end to fall, and one for the visual to reach the viewer?

I think we are assuming there is an observer at both sides.

 

[Vegeta897]

I'm aware of that, but that doesn't have to do with my question.

 

[NeptuneUK]

This question can be simplified, what if we are dealing with solid cylinder one light year long, if there is an observer at both sides and one of them moves the cylinder forward slightly would it take a minimum of one year for the other observer to see it move?
Am I missing the point?

 

[Raziaar]

Well in that scenario, I would imagine you see the cylinder move instantly provided you have a solid piece of material able to span that incredible distance and have enough force to move it.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Let's try this on a smaller scale.
Say, we do the same thing, but only stretch it across the Atlantic.
Go.

 

[Vegeta897]

Well in that scenario, I would imagine you see the cylinder move instantly provided you have a solid piece of material able to span that incredible distance and have enough force to move it.

No, the part near you would appear to move instantly but the very end of it would take a year for you to see the movement. In other words if you were to swing the bar to the side, it would appear as if you are bending it.

 

[Raziaar]

No, the part near you would appear to move instantly but the very end of it would take a year for you to see the movement. In other words if you were to swing the bar to the side, it would appear as if you are bending it.

Yeah but I'm not trying to see the movement all those lightyears away from me, I'm trying to see the movement near me. And I have a direct physical connection from that far point to me.

Wouldn't I be able to feel it instantly? I mean, that only makes sense to me... as I'm not trying to see movement all those lightyears away, I'm trying to see movement only at my end, as the entire bar is being pushed.

 

[Vegeta897]

I don't know whether it would take a year for your force to act, or whether you'd be able to effectively condense the object because it would take so long for the force to reach the end.

 

[Raziaar]

We must fund a scientific project to accomplish this right away and test it out. Maybe in the process we'll find a habitable planet.

 

[Vegeta897]

I'm pretty sure it would condense. I imagine it would be like how inertia works, like in those slowmotion videos you see how things being hit are perfectly still until the force can reach all of the object or whatever.

I might be wrong in relating that though.

 

[The Monkey]

No, movement energy is limited to the speed of light too.

 

[Sheepo]

It's magic.

 

[CrazyHarij]

I'm no scientist, but my impression is that the force required to push all the spheres instantly would have to be ludicrous, exceeding the equalivent of the speed of light, and that if you had that amount of force you would already be breaking the laws of physics. thus the whole thing would exceed the speed of light once you apply that force.

If it would take a year to push in another sphere, due to the slow inertia of the movement of the whole thing, then we might have something..

 

[<RJMC>]

shouldnt you need a lot of strentgh to push all those balls?

 

[Dan]

I already answered this question in the third post down. Electromagnetic force travels at the speed of light. Physical contact is governed by electromagnetism.

 

[Azner]

shouldnt you need a lot of strentgh to push all those balls?

Balls. Haha balls.. hehehe balls hahahaha.

 

[Higlac]

This is gay.. balls are touching.

But Dan does have a valid point. The interactions between the spheres aren't between solid objects, they are between the relative repulsions of the electrons in the atoms between the spheres.

 

[Kula Meenur]

I'd love to see you make a tube a light year long, never mind fill it with balls the same size and get a man to the other end to catch the ball. :dozey:

The false theory can be applied to other avenues of communication, you ass.




I know you know that

 

[sinkoman]

Put your balls in the tube. It SHOULD work.

 

[Laivasse]

I remember seeing something like this on QI, about how electrons in a circuit work in a very similar way to the example Riom described. The electrons themselves in fact move very slowly, but the current travels very quickly due to the transfer of force - comparable to your balls popping out at the other end when someone else puts their balls in their own end.

 

[sinkoman]

I remember seeing something like this on QI, about how electrons in a circuit work in a very similar way to the example Riom described. The electrons themselves in fact move very slowly, but the current travels very quickly due to the transfer of force - comparable to your balls popping out at the other end when someone else puts their balls in their own end.

I loled.

 

[Operational]

By the average man's intuition and newtonian mechanics a sphere should pop out the other end straight away.

Why is this wrong?

newtonian mechanics

Well there's your problem. In Newtonian Mechanics forces apply instantly and the speed of light holds no real special meaning.

As Dan said forces don't travel instantly, it will take sometime for the ball to pop out at the other end.

 

[Eejit]

I remember seeing something like this on QI, about how electrons in a circuit work in a very similar way to the example Riom described. The electrons themselves in fact move very slowly, but the current travels very quickly due to the transfer of force - comparable to your balls popping out at the other end when someone else puts their balls in their own end.

That actually sounds like how Fry might put it too. The dirty old bastard

 

[Laivasse]

Fry actually compared it to a tube of marbles. The gay innuendo in this case is Copyright 2008 Laivasse.

 

[Seppo]

Why the **** would you have a tube that's several lightyears in length?

 

[Operational]

Why the **** would you have a tube that's several lightyears in length?

That's not really the point now is it?