How to win the hearts and minds of Muslims in the west?

[jverne]

If you need some inspiration watch this vid (but is not necessary)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSMDLFK6nI4&feature=related


I'd start with:

1.disengage in Iraq and Afghanistan
2.support of establishing Palestine as a country
3.Decrease criminalization and surveillance of Muslim communities
4.cater more to their demands...separation of sexes, faith related obligations (holidays,...)
5. give them jobs


IMO what could go wrong with the above stated

1. Afghanistan falls quickly back in the hands of the Taliban, AlQaida follows soon. Iraq suffers a similar fate, religious extremist get hands on the biggest oil reserve on the planet.
Extremist might loose some support from Muslim communities elsewhere, but they gain financial and organizational benefits, thus become stronger.

2.Israel doesn't give up Palestine easily, more bloodshed follows. But the big question is are the Palestinians willing to settle with less. Conflict continues and becomes the standard excuse for extremist.

3.Decreased surveillance leaves alone the whole community but allows the small violent minority to thrive. More attacks are likely to happen.

4. Freedom of speech becomes gooey...things like critical cartoons, speaches,... become nonexistent. (even today they are pretty censored). Muslims (probably even the moderate clerics) see the opportunity to enact laws and practices that benefit them, that might be in conflict with our current laws and practices.

5. I have no effing idea how in hell could that happen...jobs are not just given away like candy.



What is your take on the Muslim extremist issue? Probably the answer lies in the middle, giving them some slack on one side and tightening the other.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Are you going to put a disclaimer on this thread too?

 

[jverne]

Are you going to put a disclaimer on this thread too?

Did is say anything that warrants one? No sarcasm, no hidden jokes.

 

[Escaep]

So basically give them everything they want?

 

[jverne]

So basically give them everything they want?

Is that a critique of my statements or just a general observation?

I don't know if giving them everything would work or giving them some will either.
I'm asking if you people have any good ideas. Because very often people criticize the government/other people for their actions but not really give any solution in return. IMO that is a dishonest practice.

 

[jverne]

A bit off topic:

I've just seen something really peculiar. The youtube link i posted. Go to part 6 of the episode at 0:30.

Quick summary. The narrator goes to a British, Muslim faith school. The teacher there is an strong supporter of anti-extremism and the whole class is paid for by the British governments Prevent program. At 0:30 you'll see that the female pupils are way behind the boys.


Just for reference... i was in a christian faith school early in life and there was no separation of sexes.

 

[Polaris]

Don't give them anything, I want to live in the secular democratic society where everyone have the same rights. Islamic extremist will always want to destroy our society, as long we are not all Muslims (then Shia or Sunni conflict may follow).

 

[jverne]

Don't give them anything, I want to live in the secular democratic society where everyone have the same rights. Islamic extremist will always want to destroy our society, as long we are not all Muslims (then Shia or Sunni conflict may follow).

I think the extremist are not really the crux of the problem.

A lot of moderates allow few extremist to grow. That's why in the chase after extremists you can't dodge stepping on some moderates. That means surveillance, arrests,...
Right now the (british) government is paying for the reeducation programs in muslim faith schools and as i could clearly see, even moderates continue practices against our norms an values (possibly even laws). So in order to gain trust you have to give them something. The problem is that, when that something becomes most things.

Question is...can there really be something like moderate Islam?

 

[Polaris]

I think the extremist are not really the crux of the problem.

A lot of moderates allow few extremist to grow. That's why in the chase after extremists you can't dodge stepping on some moderates. That means surveillance, arrests,...
Right now the (british) government is paying for the reeducation programs in muslim faith schools and as i could clearly see, even moderates continue practices against our norms an values (possibly even laws). So in order to gain trust you have to give them something. The problem is that, when that something becomes most things.

Absolutely, even the large number moderates is the problem.
But we shouldn't give them anything, just ignore them, show them our western secular values and integrate them somehow. Even US Christians can't have all the things they want so much.

 

[jverne]

Absolutely, even the large number moderates is the problem.
But we shouldn't give them anything, just ignore them, show them our western secular values and integrate them somehow. Even US Christians can't have all the things they want so much.

So in your opinion (our) casualties are something we should accept as part of the ongoing solution?

 

[Polaris]

You can't win them all, jverne. Can't win 'em all.

 

[Noodle]

That'd be like Jews trying to win over the heart and mind of Hitler.

I say we make sure they have unlimited access to jeans and rock n roll. The rest will follow.

 

[15357]

I'd start with:

#1. Ban religion

#2. force everyone to undergo mandatory political reeducation, preferably from an early age

#3. ???

#4. Profit!

(Simply put, turning muslims (and people of other religious/ideological beliefs) not muslim anymore by educating them to adhere to a single unified political ideology will work best. I call it, Nationalized Democracy.)

 

[Warped]

in the end it all boils down to: will North Korea start WW3 or will Iran start WW3

also Russia

muslims are a smaller nuisance, lets work on the bigger problems here

 

[AJ Rimmer]

That'd be like Jews trying to win over the heart and mind of Hitler.

I say we make sure they have unlimited access to jeans and rock n roll. The rest will follow.

This, kinda.

 

[lame-o]

in the end it all boils down to: will North Korea start WW3 or will Iran start WW3

also Russia

muslims are a smaller nuisance, lets work on the bigger problems here

lol. I'd say they are the least likely to start WW3 in the near future.

 

[No Limit]

When you guys think about the word muslim what is the first thing that pops in to your head? At the same time if you think about the word Christian what pops up then? Now why the difference?

This thread would sound absolutely absurd if it was in any other context. If the title was "how to win the hearts and minds of asian people in the west" nobody would take it seriously. Muslims all around the world all have diverse views and diverse cultures. They are normal people like everyone else. Yes, many hate our foreign policy (and some love it) but that is no different than millions of americans from all kinds of backgrounds that also hate our foreign policy. You don't make threads about "how to win the hearts and minds of liberals" based on that, do you? Most of these people go on living their lives no different from any of us. Yet you wanna group them like they are some retarted step child that hates your guts.

You wanna win the hearts and minds of muslims in the west? Stop thinking the way you do. You have this "them" vs "us" mentality, you are making up a conflict that isn't there. It boils down to give everyone equal protection under the law and don't bomb countries because of a temper tantrum. If you don't do that a lot of people from all kinds of backgrounds will hate you, not just muslims.

By the way, you see what I did here Jverne? I first thought this post through, formulated my opinion on the matter, and then took a stand in explaining that position. I didn't have an argument with myself thoughout the entire post pretending I didn't know where I stood on the issue.

 

[jverne]

When you guys think about the word muslim what is the first thing that pops in to your head? At the same time if you think about the word Christian what pops up then? Now why the difference?

This thread would sound absolutely absurd if it was in any other context. If the title was "how to win the hearts and minds of asian people in the west" nobody would take it seriously. Muslims all around the world all have diverse views and diverse cultures. They are normal people like everyone else. Yes, many hate our foreign policy (and some love it) but that is no different than millions of americans from all kinds of backgrounds that also hate our foreign policy. You don't make threads about "how to win the hearts and minds of liberals" based on that, do you? Most of these people go on living their lives no different from any of us. Yet you wanna group them like they are some retarted step child that hates your guts.

You wanna win the hearts and minds of muslims in the west? Stop thinking the way you do. You have this "them" vs "us" mentality, you are making up a conflict that isn't there. It boils down to give everyone equal protection under the law and don't bomb countries because of a temper tantrum. If you don't do that a lot of people from all kinds of backgrounds will hate you, not just muslims.

By the way, you see what I did here Jverne? I first thought this post through, formulated my opinion on the matter, and then took a stand in explaining that position. I didn't have an argument with myself thoughout the entire post pretending I didn't know where I stood on the issue.

Your argument is so vaguely broad...i'm not sure it answers anything.

Fat people don't have well funded terrorist organizations with cells everywhere. They usually don't have religious centers where they reinforce their believes or faith schools.
Or vast internet recruitment centers funded by the terrorist organization.
They don't have a rich country publishing books and propaganda for the western communities.
You can't just forget about the two ongoing wars that will play a major role in the future of terrorism.
You can't just ignore the issue.


Give them equal protection? Sure protection can be done, but what about giving equal benefits?
If the muslim moderates want separation of sexes in public places, are we just going to give them that out of cultural sensitivity?



Christian religion and our culture were raised at the same time. How many people died because of criticizing it, how many were in danger...?
Christian culture did not just fade away by itself, but alot of people worked to shake its founding.

 

[15357]

You all seem intent on solving this problem by appeasing them or assimilating them.


Where's the other, oh so much easier option?

 

[CptStern]

" Fat people don't have well funded terrorist organizations with cells everywhere. They usually don't have religious centers where they reinforce their believes or faith schools. "

all muslims everywhere all the time JIHAD 24/7!!!


look you cant blame people for accusing you of "OMG MUSLIMS"- erisms because that's all you ever seem to post about "ZOMG MUSLIMS/ISLAMISTS/TERRORISTS/END TIMES KILL DESTROY AND THE HEY HEY. even this thread is a thinly disguised example of OMG MUSLIMS ARE GOING TO KILL US ALL-erism

You all seem intent on solving this problem by appeasing them or assimilating them.

like a laser beam Numbers cuts right to the heart of the issue ..and then he blows his one moment of clear insight by the rest of his post:

Where's the other, oh so much easier option?

you were so close to being normal Numbers, so very close

 

[No Limit]

Your argument is so vaguely broad...i'm not sure it answers anything.
...

I knew you would miss the point. The point is jverne that they are no different from you and me. A very tiny percentage have done things to hurt us, everyone else just goes on living their lives. Yet because of a tiny minority which they can not control you want to put them in a different class and treat them all like the enemy.

Like I said, you are making up a "us" vs "them" conflict that simply isn't there because you have no real definition of what "us" means or what "them" means. There are muslims in this country that supported the Iraq war and still do to this day. There are muslims that support Israel (as hard as that is for you to believe). There are muslims that think their religion is dumb but follow it because it's what they grew up with (sound familiar?). There are gay muslims, lesbian muslims. Muslims addicted to drugs or to alcohol.

Remember how I asked you what the first image that pops in to your head is when you think muslim? I can gurantee you that in 99.99% of the cases that image is wrong. They are just as diverese a group as anyone else. Yet you choose to pretend that this diversity isn't there, and that they all think exactly the same way, that they all hate you. People like you are part of the problem.

 

[jverne]

all muslims everywhere all the time JIHAD 24/7!!!

look you cant blame people for accusing you of "OMG MUSLIMS"- erisms because that's all you ever seem to post about "ZOMG MUSLIMS/ISLAMISTS/TERRORISTS/END TIMES KILL DESTROY AND THE HEY HEY. even this thread is a thinly disguised example of OMG MUSLIMS ARE GOING TO KILL US ALL-erism

Never said anything like it.

Believe it or not it was genuinely a good intention thread.

I knew you would miss the point. The point is jverne that they are no different from you and me. A very tiny percentage have done things to hurt us, everyone else just goes on living their lives. Yet because of a tiny minority which they can not control you want to put them in a different class and treat them all like the enemy.

Like I said, you are making up a "us" vs "them" conflict that simply isn't there because you have no real definition of what "us" means or what "them" means. There are muslims in this country that supported the Iraq war and still do to this day. There are muslims that support Israel (as hard as that is for you to believe). There are muslims that think their religion is dumb but follow it because it's what they grew up with (sound familiar?). There are gay muslims, lesbian muslims. Muslims addicted to drugs or to alcohol.

Remember how I asked you what the first image that pops in to your head is when you think muslim? I can gurantee you that in 99.99% of the cases that image is wrong. They are just as diverese a group as anyone else. Yet you choose to pretend that this diversity isn't there, and that they all think exactly the same way, that they all hate you. People like you are part of the problem.

So you are against surveillance and involvement with Muslim communities here in the west? We should just leave them be?
There is no reason to check where the books for faith class are imported from (saudi arabia), import of imams, sponsorship of mosques,...

This wouldn't be such a problem if the muslim communities here weren't infiltrated by extremist that spread their propaganda. There is clear evidence that shows Iran, Saudi arabia, AlQaida and some others are financing the extremist propaganda here.
See ...if there were just a bunch or random, unorganized, angry muslims it wouldn't be a problem at all. But there are forces here that must be contained.
Unfortunately some innocent bystanders are bound to get hurt in the process.


A bit off topic: Are you in favor of moving back to pre 9/11 security standards/measures (in airoports, laws,...)?

 

[Eejit]

Your argument is so vaguely broad...i'm not sure it answers anything.

IRONY

 

[No Limit]

So you are against surveillance and involvement with Muslim communities here in the west? We should just leave them be?
There is no reason to check where the books for faith class are imported from (saudi arabia), import of imams, sponsorship of mosques,...

This wouldn't be such a problem if the muslim communities here weren't infiltrated by extremist that spread their propaganda. There is clear evidence that shows Iran, Saudi arabia, AlQaida and some others are financing the extremist propaganda here.
See ...if there were just a bunch or random, unorganized, angry muslims it wouldn't be a problem at all. But there are forces here that must be contained.
Unfortunately some innocent bystanders are bound to get hurt in the process.


A bit off topic: Are you in favor of moving back to pre 9/11 security standards/measures (in airoports, laws,...)?

How hard is this for you to understand? You didn't address my simple point which tells me you still arent getting it.

You are classifying all muslims as the enemy. You are making this "us" vs "them" while completely ignoring the huge diversity in the muslim community. As I pointed out to you there is no such thing as a typical muslim, yet you want to group them as if there was such a thing.

A white guy flew his plane in to an IRS building the other week. Which of your freedoms would you like to give up as a result of that act? Should we be put up government ran cameras all around your house?

And you continue to classify the muslim community as some extrimist fringe group when this is absolutely not true. You do know its not true, right?

 

[Absinthe]

Give 'em bacon grease. Who doesn't like bacon grease?!

 

[Escaep]

Give 'em bacon grease. Who doesn't like bacon grease?!

Pigs.

 

[jverne]

How hard is this for you to understand? You didn't address my simple point which tells me you still arent getting it.

You are classifying all muslims as the enemy. You are making this "us" vs "them" while completely ignoring the huge diversity in the muslim community. As I pointed out to you there is no such thing as a typical muslim, yet you want to group them as if there was such a thing.

A white guy flew his plane in to an IRS building the other week. Which of your freedoms would you like to give up as a result of that act? Should we be put up government ran cameras all around your house?

And you continue to classify the muslim community as some extrimist fringe group when this is absolutely not true. You do know its not true, right?

Of course muslims are diverse. But i'm talking about that which binds them together, mosques, faith schools, policital organisations,...

Obviously you won't got to a random house break down the door and kill everyone innocent or not. But things like fringe groups and money transactions of suspicious organizations, religious institutions known for suspicious deals should be in check.

I never made an argument that all muslims should be prosecuted.

My top argument is to limit extremist influence on otherwise moderate groups. But to do that you need to step on some toes.

For instance...how would you deal with an imam that openly propagates intolerance or incites hate to would be terrorists?

 

[Noodle]

Hey, if we just outlaw breathing, we won't have to worry about muslims any more.

Duh.

Oh, and burkhas.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Hey, if we just outlaw breathing, we won't have to worry about muslims any more.

Duh.

Oh, and burkhas.

BRILLIANT!

 

[GreatEmperor]

BRILLIANT!

Burkhas made of tinfoil, for men and women, place them in the Badlands(for the US)


result, we dont have to listen to more whining and worthless threats

 

[nurizeko]

How to win the hearts and minds of Muslims in the west?

Lighting ourselves on fire along with our libraries and monuments.

You cannot please a bunch of people who willingly embrace the depths of cultural and social ignorance they do.

 

[No Limit]

Of course muslims are diverse. But i'm talking about that which binds them together, mosques, faith schools, policital organisations,...

Obviously you won't got to a random house break down the door and kill everyone innocent or not. But things like fringe groups and money transactions of suspicious organizations, religious institutions known for suspicious deals should be in check.

I never made an argument that all muslims should be prosecuted.

My top argument is to limit extremist influence on otherwise moderate groups. But to do that you need to step on some toes.

For instance...how would you deal with an imam that openly propagates intolerance or incites hate to would be terrorists?

I've had a lot of shit going on so didn't have time to respond before.

You never made the argument that all muslims should be prosecuted (I think persecuted is the right word)? What does this look like to you:

So you are against surveillance and involvement with Muslim communities here in the west? We should just leave them be?

You want to spy on all muslims and that to you isn't persecution? Making someone an automatic suspect because of their religion isn't persecution?

Why do you continue to ignore the fact that a very tiny percentage of muslims ever do anything to hurt somebody? I am willing to bet you have just as many crazy white guys willing to go on a shooting spree because the president is black as there are muslims in this country willing to do something violent. But you would never suggest that we should persecute white rednecks as a result, now would you?

 

[VictimOfScience]

The scary thing to me is that there is a thread like this at all. The "Us vs. Them" mentality is what got us here in the first place. The notion of nation-states divide us all; religions divide us all; political parties divide us all. Fear of the "other" has been a HUGE part of all of our lives, but has never been more prominent than in the days since 9/11. Since then, it is always there in the back of our minds. Creating color charts that depict "threat levels" where the "normal" state is "Elevated" is insane in the extreme. The fact of the matter is that (for example) over 700,000 Americans died from obesity-related diseases when ~33 died as a direct result of terrorism in 2009. Why then is there such a fanatical fight and inconceivable spending for the "War on Terror" and not a war on the horrors of the American diet??? I think the writing is on the wall here as to where this country's priorities are and unfortunately, where the priorities of the world are as well which is to say, NOT with the common people anywhere. We are all humans. Why are we letting the people in power in our "democracies" divide us all against each other to serve their own greedy agendas??? They clearly don't actually care about saving our lives!!!

 

[Raziaar]

I have no desire to win the hearts and minds of Muslims in the west.