I just saw farenheit 9/11

[seinfeldrules]

what did you expect him to say?

It would be well within his power to delay the elections, citing terrorist threats. He has not done so yet.

 

[GiaOmerta]

so now your macedonian?

I'm Sicilian-Naplian American. Modern-day Roman...

 

[hasan]

Man can it, I have as much right to post what I do as you do. This isnt the Saddam regime.

you can't speak in the name of my people .. you can't tell me "but omg iraqis like us!!!11" cuz we don't.

To each his own. Bush said it, not me. An overwhelming number of the Iraqi people want to vote, something they could never do before.

omg your arguments are irrefutable!!! bush said it! it HAS to be true!!!!111
doesn't mean I'm against the concept of voting, but I'm commenting on the way you are arguing things.

Allah had it for long enough.

oh please .. no religous slurs.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/allah.html

Some Christians unthinkingly say 'Allah is not God.' (...) But for more than five hundred years before Muhammad, the vast majority of Jews and Christians in Arabia called God by the name Allah. How, then, can we say that Allah is an invalid name for God? If it is, to whom have these Jews and Christians been praying?
And what about the 10 to 12 million Arab Christians today? They have been calling God 'Allah' in their Bibles, hymns, poems, writings, and worship for over nineteen centuries. What an insult to them when we tell them not to use this word 'Allah'!

notice that is a christian website .. not an islamic one.

Location: Calgary, Canada
Maybe you should relocate and do something about it.

What's the difference between "location" and nationality? (5 marks)

 

[seinfeldrules]

you can't speak in the name of my people .. you can't tell me "but omg iraqis like us!!!11" cuz we don't.

Since when have I ever used wording like that? You are the one using 'cuz'...

I'm using the information gathered from an Iraqi poll from an Iraqi website. Again, this isnt Saddam's regime running the place, I can say what I want (as long as the mods dont get mad).

 

[hasan]

this isnt Saddam's regime running the place, I can say what I want (as long as the mods dont get mad).

rofl .. you can say what you want under saddam too, as long as he doesn't get mad!

I'm using the information gathered from an Iraqi poll from an Iraqi website.

as far as I can tell, that website is associated with the gov't appointed by the occupation. (haven't really looked at it in depth)

 

[seinfeldrules]

as far as I can tell, that website is associated with the gov't appointed by the occupation. (haven't really looked at it in depth)

Still Iraqi, I'm pretty sure the UN backed it as well...

 

[hasan]

Still Iraqi, I'm pretty sure the UN backed it as well...

so? ...

 

[seinfeldrules]

so? ...

Good point. They dont count anyways. What was I thinking using hte UN :x

 

[GiaOmerta]

What's the difference between "location" and nationality? (5 marks)

Well you have alot to say.
Actions speak louder than words. Figured maybe moving to your homeland and doing something about all this would make you happy.

 

[hasan]

Figured maybe moving to your homeland and doing something about all this would make you happy.

how I hate it when people use such arguments ..

 

[CptStern]

how I hate it when people use such arguments ..

you shouldnt hate it, just turn it around:

GiaOmerta, I suppose you're at the recruiting office right now signing up to support your country ..bye bye good luck dont shoot any civilians

 

[GiaOmerta]

I hate civilians, not referring to the content of your reply, but moreover the additude you have towards the military.

You hate them, they hate you.

 

[CptStern]

they can hate (fear) me all they want, I on the other hand have respect for some aspects of the military. I admire Romeo Dallaire ...he was a soldier ...ummm I admire the work humanitarian (when done right) missions can bring


so, you want to answer my question?

 

[Bait]

I hate civilians

No kidding...........

 

[GiaOmerta]

I apologize for the comment I made earlier. I had just woken up from a long night, but never the less it's not an excuse.

We dont see eye to eye Stern, clearly but nevertheless that's irrelevant. I apologize for degrading you. You're clearly an educated man.

As for your question.

Seriously I'm considering military service. Probably Marines. Not really in the mood to fight in Iraq. I have my eyes set on North Korea.

If I dont join the military I plan enter the industry of casinos and resorts in the Carribbean and live my life out there.

 

[seinfeldrules]

GiaOmerta, I suppose you're at the recruiting office right now signing up to support your country ..bye bye good luck dont shoot any civilians

And I suppose you're in Iraq helping all the innocent civilians recover from the evil US invasion. Bye bye good luck, dont catch one in the face.

 

[CptStern]

thanks for the apology, these things become heated sometimes, I'm no strager to punching below the belt either

anyways, I do think the military can do some good ..but when it comes to iraq the motives are questionable. By all means do what you believe in and join the army ..if I were you I'd make damn sure I understood all sides of the issues before I'm thrust into the battlefield

 

[CptStern]

And I suppose you're in Iraq helping all the innocent civilians recover from the evil US invasion. Bye bye good luck, dont catch one in the face.

ummm seinfeldrules, you're what 21? add a decade and then some and that's my age ..I protested the first war, I protested the second war (many many times), and if I didnt have my son to take care of I would have marched to the American consulate tommorrow to support Jeremy Hinzeman's refugee hearing ..what have you done to support your ideology? sitting at your computer getting mad at the liberals doesnt count ...you want a career in intelligence Iraq's your opportunity

 

[seinfeldrules]

what have you done to support your ideology? sitting at your computer getting mad at the liberals doesnt count ...you want a career in intelligence Iraq's your opportunity

17. Not officially done high school yet, not even in college (the intel business needs at least 4 years of college, highly recommended more). Still, 31 is a young chicken. Ever go and actually help these people, or just bitch about it to the US?

 

[CptStern]

I'm older than 31 and I have a family and yes I do help the iraqi people by demonstrating. Where were you when I was standing for 6 hours in -20 C weather protesting the coming invasion of the US?

 

[Steve]

I'm older than 31 and I have a family and yes I do help the iraqi people by demonstrating. Where were you when I was standing for 6 hours in -20 C weather protesting the coming invasion of the US?

Hmmm...I've always thought of demonstrating as glorified whining.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Where were you when I was standing for 6 hours in -20 C weather protesting the coming invasion of the US?

Probably at home agreeing with the imminent war while watching TV. Its not like I was going to protest a war I agreed with.

Answer me this, how many times did you demonstrate against Saddam and his genocidal ways?

 

[CptStern]

Probably at home agreeing with the imminent war while watching TV. Its not like I was going to protest a war I agreed with.

I meant in 91. I also meant: what were you doing to support the war effort

Answer me this, how many times did you demonstrate against Saddam and his genocidal ways?

well when saddam was doing his worst atrocities it was the 80's and I probably didnt know who he was ...remember, saddam was an "ally" of the US at that time, all references to his brutality where swept under the table

 

[seinfeldrules]

well when saddam was doing his worst atrocities it was the 80's and I probably didnt know who he was ...remember, saddam was an "ally" of the US at that time, all references to his brutality where swept under the table

What a lame excuse to get out of that one. Blaming the US for your lack of knowledge, what a suprise. What were you doing in the 90s when you did learn of the genocide?

I also meant: what were you doing to support the war effort

There were no real pro war rallies in my area. I saw this website that you can purchase Iraqi currency from. Its like an investment in the future of Iraq. The money does well, your profits increase as their value goes up. If it stalls, then so does your money. I'm thinking about purchasing some once I save up a little more.

 

[CptStern]

What a lame excuse to get out of that one. Blaming the US for your lack of knowledge, what a suprise. What were you doing in the 90s when you did learn of the genocide?

actually I protested the sanctions and the first war ...it didnt take a genius to see he was a tyrant but that didnt excuse the fact that it was his people who were suffering from the sanctions imposed by the US. I did march in a world peace march that did have a Iranian/iraqi kurds delegation protesting Saddam's gassing of the kurds ..so what did you do to protest Saddam's reign of tyranny?

..out of curiousity you think I'm a hippie anarchist who permanently wears black, has a peace symbol tattooed to my forehead and a copy of the Anachist Cookbook stashed in my jeans (with lable burned off in protest of all corporations everywhere ) dontcha? :upstare:

I'm just a normal guy with a little bit of knowledge ..you'd be surprised at the amount of families and everyday average people at peace rallies ...a very small percentage actually cause problems. Most of us are there to lend a voice towards opposing war in a peaceful manner

There were no real pro war rallies in my area. I saw this website that you can purchase Iraqi currency from. Its like an investment in the future of Iraq. The money does well, your profits increase as their value goes up. If it stalls, then so does your money. I'm thinking about purchasing some once I save up a little more.

meh you're already supporting the war effort ..to the tune of $3,400 in taxes not too mention gas prices, insurance, safety etc etc

 

[othello]

I thought it was a great film as well, but you have to understand that it was heavily slanted to the left.

Far better than the pathetic response, Farenhype 9/11.

i think 'pathetic' is a bit strong here. it was pretty simple. kind of like 'hey, he's lying, here's the proof... roll credits'. i've already had many, many bush discussions on these boards, so i wont get into that aspect. suffice to say, anyone who bought/buys into michael moore's ridiculous and easily refuted bullshit is in a sad, and 'pathetic', intellectual state. BFC was a better documentary, true, but it was still chalked full of deceit and distortion and clever editing... though not nearly to the extent of F9/11. mikey couldnt even be honest in Roger & Me... the very first 'documentary' he ever made. he's a clever bastard, exploiting the ignorance and uneducation of the world... but he's more of a hypocritical and narcissistic propogandist with absolutely no political savvy and some very weak talking points.

if you dont like bush, figure out your own reasons why. dont let it be because you watched this pile of shit film. do some research. educate yourself. hell, when mikey calls you 'ignorant', you know you're in bad shape. :thumbs:

 

[hasan]

well, I personally havn't done much, other than portesting once and attempting to "" propagate "" my cause on the internet.

even that protest, I didn't organize it or anything, I wasn't invloved in it in any way, I just kinda heared about it so I went and marched with the thousands ..

if you dont like bush, figure out your own reasons why. dont let it be because you watched this pile of shit film. do some research. educate yourself. hell, when mikey calls you 'ignorant', you know you're in bad shape.

pfft .. I hated bush looong before I even heared about michael moore.

 

[CptStern]

i think 'pathetic' is a bit strong here. it was pretty simple. kind of like 'hey, he's lying, here's the proof... roll credits'. i've already had many, many bush discussions on these boards, so i wont get into that aspect. suffice to say, anyone who bought/buys into michael moore's ridiculous and easily refuted bullshit is in a sad, and 'pathetic', intellectual state. BFC was a better documentary, true, but it was still chalked full of deceit and distortion and clever editing... though not nearly to the extent of F9/11. mikey couldnt even be honest in Roger & Me... the very first 'documentary' he ever made. he's a clever bastard, exploiting the ignorance and uneducation of the world... but he's more of a hypocritical and narcissistic propogandist with absolutely no political savvy and some very weak talking points.

if you dont like bush, figure out your own reasons why. dont let it be because you watched this pile of shit film. do some research. educate yourself. hell, when mikey calls you 'ignorant', you know you're in bad shape. :thumbs:

hey at least when Moore lies whole countries dont get invaded. BTW I want proof that Moore is a liar, and dont even dare give me any links by gun-nut Dave Kopel

 

[seinfeldrules]

meh you're already supporting the war effort ..to the tune of $3,400 in taxes not too mention gas prices, insurance, safety etc etc

My family pays around 5,000 a year and we are pretty much the average American family. The figure given is hugely flawed and I've said that before

so what did you do to protest Saddam's reign of tyranny?

Supported the war.

hey at least when Moore lies whole countries dont get invaded. BTW I want proof that Moore is a liar, and dont even dare give me any links by gun-nut Dave Kopel

Thats such a flawed argument. You cant explain away his reasoning so you dismiss him, what a suprise.

 

[burner69]

My family pays around 5,000 a year and we are pretty much the average American family. The figure given is hugely flawed and I've said that before

Supported the war.

Thats such a flawed argument. You cant explain away his reasoning so you dismiss him, what a suprise.

Hey, dont want u to think I'm targetting u seinfeld, just debating with u, ur a gud guy 2 debate with :cheers:

I think you've gotta be fair on cptstern, he's protested a lot, and that takes effort. Time and effort. In what way, other than mandatory taxes, did you support the war. And when you did support it, was it because of the fear tactics of the 45min WMD, the falsely implied terrorist links, or the one good reason to invade; he's an evil dictator. Cuz I know why most people originally supported the war, and Saddam killing his own people was not it.

Moore is not brilliant, he's a propaganderist (sp?) in his own right, but seeing as there are so few like him, I think he's got the right to do it. Give the polar extreme of the stuff you see on FOX and hear from Bush.

Moore certainly seems more peaceful, he dosen't ever suggest we invade and kill people who oppose his views. Bush, and Saddam, do.
Moore may lie, people may believe him.
Bush may lie. Hundreds of thousands die.

 

[seinfeldrules]

And when you did support it, was it because of the fear tactics of the 45min WMD, the falsely implied terrorist links, or the one good reason to invade; he's an evil dictator.

I was motivated by 9/11. I am not suggesting that Saddam played a role in it, I also knew that at the time. I was worried that WMD could fall into the hands of terrorists and they may use them to hit NYC or Wash. DC. It was too large a threat to ignore. I still feel it was too large a threat to ignore based off the intelligence reports given to Bush by the top intel. agencies across the globe. In another 5 years, Saddam could have easily had WMD and the whole situation could have gotten out of control. I did think of the humanitarian benefits as well. In my mind at the time it was a 75/25 split between WMD and humanitarian.

Moore is not brilliant, he's a propaganderist (sp?) in his own right, but seeing as there are so few like him, I think he's got the right to do it. Give the polar extreme of the stuff you see on FOX and hear from Bush.

What about Dan Rather and CBS as a quick example? How about all the Hollywood actors? What of the NYT and many other major newspapers (LAT, SFC)?

 

[CptStern]

My family pays around 5,000 a year and we are pretty much the average American family. The figure given is hugely flawed and I've said that before

proof?

Supported the war.

how exactly? by talking about it here?

Thats such a flawed argument. You cant explain away his reasoning so you dismiss him, what a suprise.

no, that's a very valid reason, he's a gun advocate who writes a lot of articles that support gun ownership .."conflict of interest" springs to mind

 

[seinfeldrules]

proof?

Sorry, I'm not in the habit of posting my family's tax return online. I can assure you that both my parents are accountants and I specifically asked them how much money they paid last year to the Fed. Gov't.

how exactly? by talking about it here?

I already answered that question, I'm not going to do so again.

no, that's a very valid reason, he's a gun advocate who writes a lot of articles that support gun ownership .."conflict of interest" springs to mind

And Moore takes the exact opposite approach, you cant use him anymore and we can no longer discuss F 9/11. I suppose this topic should be closed as well as any others that may spring up.

 

[CptStern]

I was motivated by 9/11. I am not suggesting that Saddam played a role in it, I also knew that at the time. I was worried that WMD could fall into the hands of terrorists and they may use them to hit NYC or Wash. DC.

but you're not at all concerned that it was the US that armed saddam with WMD?

It was too large a threat to ignore. I still feel it was too large a threat to ignore based off the intelligence reports given to Bush by the top intel. agencies across the globe.

bullshit ..his source as I've said many many times is Iraqi PM and CIA employee Iyad Allawi

who supplied the US with false info on:

*connection between saddam and 9/11
* WMD capable in 45 mins
* Niger uranium
* Saddam stashed billions $

In another 5 years, Saddam could have easily had WMD and the whole situation could have gotten out of control.

there's never been an iraqi terrorist attack on the US ..except of course after the fall of saddam.

I did think of the humanitarian benefits as well. In my mind at the time it was a 75/25 split between WMD and humanitarian.

please I nearly choked on my bile! you dont seem to give 2 shits about the amouint of children killed during the sanctions ..I think that's a lame excuse and not at all convincing

 

[CptStern]

Sorry, I'm not in the habit of posting my family's tax return online. I can assure you that both my parents are accountants and I specifically asked them how much money they paid last year to the Fed. Gov't.

no you simpleton, I meant show proof that the figure was inflated

I already answered that question, I'm not going to do so again.

in other words you did nothing

And Moore takes the exact opposite approach, you cant use him anymore and we can no longer discuss F 9/11. I suppose this topic should be closed as well as any others that may spring up.

moore doesnt have "conflict of interest" not unless he has time-share condos in baghdad or something ..Kopel does have a legitamate conflict of interest ..he makes his living advocating gun laws. It can be argues that F9/11 hurt Moore's career ..in fact I doubt few studios ill touch him besides the usually upstarts

 

[Gray Fox]

Tell me Seinfeld, just out of curiosity, the fact that the state which was hardest hit by the terror attacs (9/11) massivly voted against Bush, in other words against the Iraq war and his way of fighting terrorism, does that even make you think, I mean just a littlebit.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Tell me Seinfeld, just out of curiosity, the fact that the state which was hardest hit by the terror attacs (9/11) massivly voted against Bush, in other words against the Iraq war and his way of fighting terrorism, does that even make you think, I mean just a littlebit.

New York has always been a liberal state bud. They were voting in this election for more than just foreign policy. What you are insinuating just isnt how American politics work.

 

[seinfeldrules]

moore doesnt have "conflict of interest" not unless he has time-share condos in baghdad or something ..Kopel does have a legitamate conflict of interest ..he makes his living advocating gun laws. It can be argues that F9/11 hurt Moore's career ..in fact I doubt few studios ill touch him besides the usually upstarts

His movie sold like hotcakes. What was it, a 150 million dollar run in the box office alone? Again, you cannot dispute his claims, so you are trying to silence him. Is that the normal liberal tatic on this forum? You called for gh0st to be silenced as well for voicing his opinion.

no you simpleton, I meant show proof that the figure was inflated

My parents pay more than 50% of their taxes to the war in Iraq? So do 100 million other families? Ok, explain the logic in that. The figure is just a scare number, just like the 100,000 civilians killed.

in other words you did nothing

Suggest some things I could have done to show support for the war. Sorry, but there werent any pro war rallies around me that I could have attended.

 

[othello]

hey at least when Moore lies whole countries dont get invaded. BTW I want proof that Moore is a liar, and dont even dare give me any links by gun-nut Dave Kopel

first give me proof that bush is a liar. and dont even dare give me any links from anyone that disagrees with my point of view, and has mounds of evidence to support it.



seriously... as seinfeld said, dismissing dake kopel as some 'gun-nut' is quite telling. i could provide a slew of links... but why? i'm sure you'll lump them into the 'vast right-wing conspiracy' and casually dismiss them.

it's completely baffling that people still support moore and/or his movie. there is more evidence showing the lies of michael moore, than there is of george w. bush. i still have yet to see any credible evidence that bush lied and, supposing he did, that these 'lies' are what led us to invading iraq. all the pro-moore, anti-bush arguments are weak, just as they always have been.

 

[burner69]

Bush: We have tripled the homeland security budget from 10 to 30 billion dollars
The Department of Homeland Security budget has grown from $19.7BB in 2001 to $36.5BB in 2004.

Bush: "Saddam has strong terrorist links"
Bush later: "Saddam is not linked to terrorists"

Bush: "Iraq has WMDs, launchable in 45mins"
Bush later: "They cannot be launched in 45mins"
Bush even later: "We have found no sign of WMDs"

Bush: "My job as the President is to submit a budget to the Congress and to set priorities, and one of the priorities that we've talked about is making sure the health care systems are funded.”
Bush's first budget proposal: Cut childrens hospitals grants by 15% (furthered to 30% in 04)

Bush: "Part of being a secure America is to encourage homeownership."
Bush later: Eliminates Hope VI in his 04 budget, a scheme to build housing.

Bush: "I'm here to thank all those who work hard to make a living here in America."
Bush later: 9% cut in job training programs
2% cut in Occupational Safety and Health admin
$60m cut to adult job training
Elimination of Youth Oppurtunities grants

Bush: "We must leave no child behind" (with education)
Bush later: 2003 budget (first after NCLB coined) cut the NCLB scheme by $90m, leaving the $7bn short.

Bush: "Had I known that the enemy was going to use airplanes to strike America, to attack us. I would have used very resource, every asset, every power of this government to protect the American people.”
Later: Condoleezza Rice, the top National Security official with President Bush at the July 2001 G-8 summit in Genoa where "U.S. officials were warned that Islamic terrorists might attempt to crash an airliner" into the summit, prompting officials to "close the airspace over Genoa and station antiaircraft guns at the city's airport."

Bush after 9/11: "75% of al Qaeda leaders have been brought to justice"
But...: Al Qaeda has approximately 18,000 operatives in more than 60 countries. Of the 27 suspect terrorists on the the most wanted list, only 3 have been captured or killed.

Bush: “Afghanistan today is a friend of the United States of America. It is not a haven for America’s terrorist enemies.”
Later that day...: Afghan Foreign Minister requested more help in fighting off the Taliban. The resurgent Taliban has forced the UN to remove it staff from parts of the country and led the German ambassador to warn that they threaten the country’s efforts to form a democratic government.