Your opinion on "cold fusion"

[clarky003]

Low energy nuclear reaction's (LENR) have been found to occur in electrochemical experiment's in apperatus the size of a briefcase.

The reaction's enduce "cold electricity", suspected to be zero point energy leaking out as useful electrical energy, the reaction takes place in water, and unlike "hot fusion" it is not radioactive..

The discovery was first announced in Utah back in 1989, and was, if anyone has seen the news for that week, the most astounding discovery of all time if it proved real infront of an established commity... even though the reaction was present and had been replicated many scientist's in the hot fusion program refuted claim's and sounded off, calling them hoaxer's and proposter's.

The enveloping row discredited the so called heretic's, and the power of mainstream science put them in their place.

However cold fusion lives on outside of our fossil fuel dependancey ... and there are many replications of the result's worldwide... It will eventually be realised as a break through in quantum physic's, and has the potential to change global economic's and our way of life forever, as it can be distributed, or home built, to provide complete energy self dependancey, erradicating the need for the power grid, and our corrupt multi billion dollar fossil fuel giant's, who actively attempt to prohibit the new technologies to save their 'skins' , in the process dening every human on earth a more abundant lifestyle.

A main stream science commission in charge of reviewing the technology are easing up on their condescending claims of the technology being proposterous, one day maybe they will accept the reality of ZPE technology, antigravity and cold fusion.

details and photo's (please read about it some more before putting your poll vote in, especially if you didnt get anything I just wrote above.)
http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/photos.html

http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/

http://www.lenr-canr.org/

also i feel its important to note the head of magazine, "infinite energy" and figure head for cold fusion research Dr Eugene F. Mallove was murder just under a year ago in perculiar circumstances, possibly in relation to his line of work, It could possibly display the lengths some people may goto to attempt to stop or slowdown opposing (new) idea's.

http://www.eugenemallove.org/

 

[Datrix]

I really think this could be true, only time can tell.

 

[Tr0n]

Cold fusion in my mind could be possible...hell there is still so much we as human beings have to learn.

Now since I am a cynic my vote is the second option.

 

[Darkknighttt]

i dont get what cold fusion is still, even having read your post.

 

[clarky003]

http://www.lenr-canr.org/Experiments.htm

here's a nice link for all their equipment set ups.

GENERAL INTRODUCTION
The controversial phenomenon called "Cold Fusion" (CF), "Low Energy Nuclear Reactions"(LENR) or Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reactions" (CANR) involves the proposed ability to initiate a wide variety of nuclear reactions in solid materials using much lower energies than thought possible. Rather than using brute force to move nuclei to within reaction distance, apparently a mechanism exists in a lattice structure that is capable of circumventing any Coulomb barrier, allowing certain nuclei to interact. This paper will address the major observations that are used to support the claimed anomalous behavior. To help the reader obtain a quick overview of the claims, minimal detail is provided in the text. All of the many omitted papers are available in the website LIBRARY where dedicated readers can browse to their heart's content.


Chapter 1 gives an overview of the methods used to initiate the effect. Evidence for anomalous heat is summarized in Chapter 2 and nuclear products are discussed in Chapter 3. A few explanations for the nuclear mechanism are provided in Chapter 7. These anomalous nuclear reactions require a special environment in which to operate, the so-called Nuclear Active Environment (NAE). This environment is described in Chapter 4. Because duplication of the claims has been difficult for many people, some insights are provided in Chapter 6 to help in this effort. For a study to be useful, a student needs to understand the chemical properties of materials used in the attempt. These are described in Chapter 5 for only the Pd-D system where a few misconceptions are discussed. Finally, some plausible prosaic explanations and possible errors are offered in Chapter 8.

This discussion is designed to be a guide for amateurs and professionals alike. The claimed effects are accepted as being real, although not well understood or necessarily accurate in their reported magnitude. This paper intends to show important patterns of behavior, to suggest ideas that might have been overlooked, and to give a student some understanding of how to duplicate the claims. The reader can make the final judgement as to whether such a large and consistent collection of observations can be produced by error, chance, or prosaic processes.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

I'll be honest i love it with marmalade on...

 

[PickledGecko]

The reaction's enduce "cold electricity", suspected to be zero point energy leaking out as useful electrical energy, the reaction takes place in water, and unlike "hot fusion" it is not radioactive..

Those experiments were discredited because fussion produces neutron radiation. Its a fact, no neutrons, no fussion. However, progress in cold fussion has been made. Some scientists, I think here in the UK, have managed to create fussion in the lab. Unfortuantly, it currently takes more energy to produce the fusion than is given off, meaning there is still a lot of work to be done.

 

[clarky003]

where ever you heard that i dont know, main stream science?, but experiment's world wide actually give out more then is put in its just a matter of refining the process, its accomplished through the reaction's ability to gate potential zero point energy into electromagnetic energy.

to understand whats going on, understanding new discoveries in quantum physic's is paramount. electron exitement and potential energy gain from that is a nessersary theoretical element.

 

[PickledGecko]

"mainstream science"? Are you saying that mainstream science is ignoring cold fusion breakthroughs? Are you claiming that these experiments are successfull at cold fusion, where 2 hydrogen atoms combine to produce 1 helium atom, but are being ignored?

I know of at least one case recently where a scientist claimed to achieve cold fusion and mainstream scientists were all too glad to test his discoveries. Unfortunately the results showed again, there were no neutrons produced in the reaction, proving that fusion did not take place.

reaction's ability to gate potential zero point energy into electromagnetic energy.

Here is a diagram explaing the fusion of 2 isomers of hydrogen...

...are we even talking about the same thing?

 

[clarky003]

nope, your talking about "hot fusion" there.

cold fusion has no detected neutron radiation, It is quite different. As it stands to explain it may require vaccum theory.

 

[Ennui]

"Thank god for coooold fusion."

- Starcraft

 

[PickledGecko]

no "hot fusion" is when you force the atoms to smash together using extremely high kinetic energy (eg in the sun or in a hydrogen bomb). "cold fusion" is when you do the same thing but at, surprise surprise, low temperatures.

Cold fusion is technically the name for any nuclear fusion reaction that may occur well below the temperature required for thermonuclear reactions (millions of degrees Celsius). There are a number of established processes by which this can occur, although currently none of these can produce more energy than is required to contain the reaction.

So whatever it is these people are doing, they should give it its own name.

 

[Dan]

As far as I understand, cold fusion is only possible inside a vacum in a magnetic bottle. And has actually been done by some scientists. If it's in a container the container will either shut down the reaction or the reaction will destroy the container.

The only problem with a magnetic bottle is that until we have superconductors, they will take more power than a cold fusion reactor can produce. And we won't have superconductors until we can maintain absolute zero.

 

[clarky003]

I agree, its actually quite a bit different from fusion, but if what they have done is reproducable then they should have a serious think about it, perhaps just to get the "hot fusion" scientist's to stop undermining them... It is causing some confusion.

 

[clarky003]

Dan, between every atom there is vast amount's of supposed "nothing" galactic propautions on that scale, zero point vaccum as it is coined, we are technically all floating in a sea of vaccum, which is directley responsible for the perpetual energy of the electron and manifested phenomena we percieve with our own senses. there maybe external ways to stimulate the vaccum, creating potential difference in an electrons orbit is one. it acts like a capacitor, it moves to a stimulated higher orbit, then the oscillations are stopped, and it jumps back, the potential discharged is extra energy from vaccum state. if you pulse these osciallations you can consistantly extract that energy, all it requires are certain low energy frequency vibrations, to stimulate the electron.

edit: sorry for the Double post, i meant to edit.. :/ dunno what happened

 

[Dan]

Clarky I don't think zero point energy and cold fusion are the same thing here. A fusion reaction is the conversion of mass into energy. Usually it's two hydrogen nuclei bonded to create one helium atom, one neutron, and a whole lotta kaboom. Cold fusion is a way to get all that energy without so much kaboom. It's the same process of "fusing" nuclei though, just in a way that is more useful as an energy source.

 

[clarky003]

but I think there is an interaction in vaccum going on that explains the reaction. being as they cant quantify it any other way.. it undeniably has something to do with the quantum vaccum.

 

[Dan]

Actually they can easily quantify it. It's something along the lines of E=mc^2

 

[clarky003]

perhaps so, but main stream science is still very sceptical.

 

[Dan]

No not really that skeptical. The problem isn't a matter of where the energy is comming from. The problem with cold fusion is finding a way to keep the reaction stable and the temperature low. Fusion is very well known. You can see it happen in the sun all the time, or you could watch footage of the H-bomb tests. They teach it in highschool chemsitry now.

 

[clarky003]

did you read the links,,? they obtain a stable reaction at room temprature.. atleast far more stable than reactions in hot fusion. I guess the truth is down to the unbiased study of it. If you read the information the proccess obtains more energy out than what goes into starting the reaction which is what the announcement's where all about.

 

[DarkStar]

To tell you the truth, I haven't seen any more evidence for a Cold Fusion Reactor then I've seen for a Perpetual Motion Machine.

The process theoretically defies all three laws of thermodynamics does it not? All the evidence thus far points to it being impossible.

 

[Dan]

Cold Fusion has been done in laboratories, it just requires more energy than it produces

 

[Tr0n]

The process theoretically defies all three laws of thermodynamics does it not? All the evidence thus far points to it being impossible.

Aren't all three laws created by humans?Also have we human beings only discovered less than 1% of space?

We are a new species...there is so much we have yet to explain and discover.

Hell didn't everyone believe the world is flat back in the middle ages only to be proven wrong later?Or how about the sun and planets rotated around the earth?

 

[clarky003]

remember this when you start mentioning the laws of thermodynamics

you cant apply the laws of thermodynamics, when certain unknown factor's havnt been determined eg. quantum vaccum interaction.. .. This is the tough thing, it starts to become more about the theory rather than the observation. as soon as you do that you stop being a good scientist. stating impossible is your opinion, but it seems quite clear hundreds of scientist's are reproducing these findings.

 

[Polaris]

Cold fusion is not same thing like ZPE. I dont believe sciencists Ponds and Fleishman but I think the Cold fusion could be possible in future. Not ZPE.

 

[clarky003]

read about and study the founder of our electric world, and his later ventures. The man who found out about electricity was a man, some say, who was before his time. ZPE is real and its harnessable now, I have no doubt.

http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/tesla_energy.htm

Brooklyn Eagle July 10, 1932 Nikola Tesla states:

I have harnessed the cosmic rays and caused them to operate a motive device. Cosmic ray investigation is a subject that is very close to me. I was the first to discover these rays and I naturally feel toward them as I would toward my own flesh and blood. I have advanced a theory of the cosmic rays and at every step of my investigations I have found it completely justified. The attractive features of the cosmic rays is their constancy. They shower down on us throughout the whole 24 hours, and if a plant is developed to use their power it will not require devices for storing energy as would be necessary with devices using wind, tide or sunlight. All of my investigations seem to point to the conclusion that they are small particles, each carrying so small a charge that we are justified in calling them neutrons. They move with great velocity, exceeding that of light. More than 25 years ago I began my efforts to harness the cosmic rays and I can now state that I have succeeded in operating a motive device by means of them. I will tell you in the most general way, the cosmic ray ionizes the air, setting free many charges ions and electrons. These charges are captured in a condenser which is made to discharge through the circuit of the motor. I have hopes of building my motor on a large scale, but circumstances have not been favorable to carrying out my plan.

New York American November 1st, 1933
Device to Harness Cosmic Energy Claimed by Tesla:

"This new power for the driving of the world's machinery will be derived from the energy which operates the universe, the cosmic energy, whose central source for the earth is the sun and which is everywhere present in unlimited quantities."

This is a diagram of Tesla's first radiant energy receiver. It stored static electricity obtained from the air and converted it to a usable form. Tesla's invention is a simple version of T.H. Moray's device. Moray's device used a unique rectifier (RE-valve) to efficiently capture the static electricity from the surrounding air. Moray's oscillator tubes (magnetron transducers) utilized this high-voltage energy to generate an internal secondary "cold" fusion reaction.

Stick an antenna up in the air, the higher the better, and wire it to one side of a capacitor, the other going to a good earth ground, and the potential difference will then charge the capacitor. Connect across the capacitor some sort of switching device so that it can be discharged at rhythmic intervals, and you have an oscillating electric output. T.H. Moray simply expanded on Tesla's idea to use high-voltage to create ionic oscillation.

Tesla's free-energy concept was patented in 1901 as an "Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy." The patent refers to "the sun, as well as other sources of radiant energy, like cosmic rays," that the device works at night is explained in terms of the night-time availability of cosmic rays. Tesla also refers to the ground as "a vast reservoir of negative electricity."

Tesla was fascinated by radiant energy and its free-energy possibilities. He called the Crooke's radiometer, a device which has vanes that spin in a vacuum when exposed to radiant energy "a beautiful invention." He believed that it would become possible to harness energy directly by "connecting to the very wheel-work of nature." On his 76th birthday at his yearly ritual press conference, Tesla announced a "cosmic-ray motor" when asked if it was more powerful than the Crooke's radiometer, he answered, "thousands of times more powerful."

In 1901 Nikola Tesla was one the first to identify "radiant energy." Tesla says that the source of this energy is our Sun. He concluded that the Sun emits small particles, each carrying so small of a charge, that they move with great velocity, exceeding that of light. Tesla further states that these particles are the neutron particles. Tesla believed that these neutron particles were responsible for all radioactive reactions. Radiant matter is in tune with these neutron particles. Radiant matter is simply a re-transmitter of energy from one state to another.

How his radiant energy receiver worked

From the electric Potential that exists between the elevated plate (plus) and the ground (minus), energy builds up in the capacitor, and, after
"a suitable time interval," the accumulated energy will "manifest itself in a powerful discharge" that can do work. The capacitor, says Tesla, should be "of considerable electrostatic capacity," and its dielectric made of "the best quality mica, for it has to withstand potentials that could rupture a weaker dielectric."

Tesla gives various options for the switching device. One is a rotary switch that resembles a Tesla circuit controller, another is an electrostatic device consisting of two very light, membranous conductors suspended in a vacuum. These sense the energy build-up in the capacitor, one charging positive, the other negative, and, at a certain charge level, are attracted, touch, and thus fire the capacitor. Tesla also mentions another switching device consisting of a minute air gap or weak dielectric film that breaks down suddenly when a certain potential is reached.

Tesla received two patents for this radiant energy device; U.S. Patent No. 685,957 - Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy and U.S. Patent No. 685,958 - Method of Utilizing Radiant Energy. Both these patents were filed on March 21, 1901 and granted on November 5, 1901. In these patents he explains:

"The sun, as well as other sources of radiant energy throw off minute particles of matter positively electrified, which, impinging upon the upper plate, communicate continuously an electrical charge to the same. The opposite terminal of the condenser being connected to ground, which may be considered as a vast reservoir of negative electricity, a feeble current flows continuously into the condenser and inasmuch as the particles are ...charged to a very high potential, this charging of the condenser may continue, as I have actually observed, almost indefinitely, even to the point of rupturing the dielectric."

The Earth's Electrostatic Charge

Tesla's intent was to condense the energy trapped between the earth and its upper atmosphere and to transform it into an electric current. He pictured the sun as an immense ball of electricity, positively charged with a potential of some 200 billion volts. The earth, on the other hand, is charged with negative electricity. The tremendous electrical force between these two bodies constituted, at least in part, what he called cosmic energy. It varied from night to day and from season to season but it is always present.

The positive particles are stopped at the ionosphere and between it and the negative charges in the ground, a distance of 60 miles, there is a large difference of voltage - something on the order of 360,000 volts. With the gases of the atmosphere acting as an insulator between these two opposite stores of electrical charges, the region between the ground and the edge of space traps a great deal of energy. Despite the large size of the planet, it is electrically like a capacitor which keeps positive and negative charges apart by using the air as a non-conducting material as an insulator.

The earth has a charge of 96,500 coulombs. With a potential of 360,000 volts, the earth constitutes a capacitor of .25 farads (farads = coulombs/volts). If the formula for calculating the energy stored in a capacitor (E =1/2CV2) is applied to the earth, it turns out that the ambient medium contains 1.6 x 1011 joules or 4.5 megawatt-hours of electrical energy. In order to utilize this high-voltage energy you must do two things -- make an energy sink and then devise a way of making the "sink" oscillate.

"Zero-Point Energy?"

Such a "sink" has to be at a lower energy state than the surrounding medium and, for the energy to continually flow into it, the energy must be continually pumped out of it. Additionally, this "sink" must maintain a lower energy state while meeting the power requirements of the load attached to it. Electrical energy, watt-seconds, is a product of volts x amps x seconds. Because the period of oscillation does not change, either voltage or current has to be the variable in this system's energy equation. Bifilar wound coils are used in the system because a bifilar wound coil maximizes the voltage difference between its turns, the current is then minimized.

A coil in our system, then, will be set into oscillation at its resonant frequency by an external power source. During the "zero-point" portion of its cycle the coil will appear as one plate of a capacitor. As the voltage across the coil increases, the amount of charge it can siphon will increase. The energy that is taken into the coil through the small energy window (zero-point), call it what you will, appears to be the key to the success of this system. It is at this zero-point where energy is condensed into positive and negative components of current. When energy escapes from the "sink" the magnetic field collapses and a strong magnetic quake is created in it's wake. A properly tuned system can capture and convert radiant energy in such a prescribed arrangement.

 

[Dan]

you guys really don't get cold fusion at all

The process theoretically defies all three laws of thermodynamics does it not? All the evidence thus far points to it being impossible.

No it doesn't defy the laws. It obeys the combined conservation of mass and energy. Fusion is very well understood. They teach it to 17 year olds in highschool. They have been making fusion bombs since the 50s.

Cold fusion is far form impossible, just not practical in its current state. All successful experiments to date barring nuclear explosions (which really aren't cold at all) have required more energy to sustain than the fusion reaction can produce

 

[kirovman]

About hot fusion:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4328597.stm

http://www.iter.org/

The first steps in experimental fusion. If all goes to plan they should have a commercial reactor within 50 years.

In cold fusion, which means that temperatures don't have to be as hot as the sun to cause a reaction (although very locally they still maybe this hot):

I read some scientist had used focused sound waves to produce enough energy for fusion: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4270297.stm

Zero-point energy is the energy associated with a quantum particle - it cannot have zero energy since knowing the position to an absolute certainty means you cannot know the momentum, hence the energy (Uncertainty Principle)- the energy cannot be zero.
Nuclear Energy is actually obtained due to the binding energy of the nucleus, the energy released being the mass defect. If 'cold fusion's' energy was being sourced from zero point energy of the nucleons, then by definition it would not a fusion reaction. Or do you mean they use the energy leaked from zero-point to trigger fusion?

As for mainstream science, you need to present a credible theory first based on postulate scientific principles. If you don't believe a postulate, you are going to have to change it yourself, and get everyone to believe you (c.f. Einstein's Theory of Relativity changed postulates of Newtonian mechanics).

You need to present a mathematical method, and your experimental data needs to be thorough and open for other scientists to see.

You can't just bypass this, saying something like "If I put my penis in a black hole, it will grow longer"

Zero point energy is just one of many quantum phenomena which is initially quite baffling, and would deserve some more investigation. I know someone who is researching the zero point energy of phonon lattice vibrations, so I would say zero point energy is not being ignored by mainstream science.

If it was being ignored, how does it crop up into many quantum descriptions of Bose-Einstein and Fermi-Dirac statistics.

Zero point energy like many quantum phenomena prove difficult to manipulate.

Can you provide a link to the microscopic analysis of zero point energy? I'm a scientist, not an engineer, so I'm not interested in these fancy devices, I'm interested in the physical principles behind it. And an step by step description of the cold fusion process relying on zero point energy.

As ever, maths would be the simplest language to interpret, I do not have much patience to sift through techno-babble.

 

[clarky003]

"If I put my penis in a black hole, it will grow longer"

umm wtf? sensible analergy

I agree with you, but sound theories need sound observations, with out observing a true scientist has no real grounding to question the validity of new technological breakthroughs, it ends up becoming a collection of biased comments right from the get go.

you really need to learn more about the potential of vaccum and the use of the electron as a control gate. Id post a load of stuff but ive done it so many times before, just search for previous threads. or google it or buy a book off ebay if you really want to learn and if you can be bothered to open up to fields of new science.

 

[kirovman]

Sound observations are obtained by data logging in the lab. That's what I've been doing and studying for some while now. If you can't determine something experimentally, it's philosphy rather than science, until you get some real data, and can counter any disputes with a reasonable explaination.

I know a lot about the so called "Dirac Sea" with an infinite number of negative energy states in the vacuum. If you make a 'hole' in this sea, a particle and anti-particle pair.

However an infinite amount of energy in the vacuum seems a bit crazy, so Feynman proposed (equally as crazy) that anti-particles are just particles moving back in time.

Expanding on this theory you get Charge - Parity conservation. And it can be violated (CP violation). Theoretical elementary particle physics is very interesting.

 

[clarky003]

it is , I enjoy looking into this because there are abviously so many unanswered questions, that may or may not be answered . Its important to grow and address new discoveries and ajust our laws accordingly, although our laws are very much restricted to our reality.. realising our reality is affected and brought into being by a realm that is most probably outside of our laws is paramount to further understanding and awareness of the processes involved, after all , all we are doing are percieving effects in science, we arnt any closer to actually knowing what gravity is, or electricity for example. but it seems that observed manifestation is only one facet of what reality is, the rest is hidden from view with the effect as an indication of its source, like feeling the wind on your skin, you know something's there even though you cant see it. or a better example would be radiowaves, not percieveable atall until technology is built to prove it's there.

 

[Polaris]

I think the ZPE is sci-fi.
I like ZPE theories only in HL2 (manipulator) or Stargate Atlantis.
Interesting:
Terms like: CP violation, Dirac shore, Zero point energy field - names of songs in Half-life 2 soundtrack!

 

[clarky003]

thats most likely why you dont believe in it, but ZPE isnt a sci-fi term, it was coined in Sci-fi films and series because of its real life presence. I dont know weither programs add credit to the reality of ZPE by putting it in sci fi , maybe they think they do raise awareness, but the obvious automatic response is to think " its TV, its Sci Fi , its not real " the programs not real of course, thats where the confusion starts, you could think anything in a made up program is made up. but that's not the case atall. In games and TV sci fi its infact used as continuity to make that series seem more real to life.

Valve at some point, when coming up with the idea for the manipulator in half life 2, they would of perhaps heard of or reasearched the news on zero point energy being tied into gravity behaviour, and implemented that to make it seem more realistic, same with stargate.

Then all the kiddies playing games and watching sci fi start thinking , " if its not a real, then ZPE cant be real either " . :hmph:

 

[Polaris]

I heard about ZPE long time before HL2 and SG-A but I have read many real science works about ZPE theories and that make me sceptical.
But I agree with your last reply.
I believe in some Cold fusion theories.

 

[Direwolf]

I think we're getting some definitions crossed here.
We have "hot" radioactive fusion which is well understood and currently harnessable.
We then have "cold" fusion which can currently be created in a lab and involves fusion being present at a temperature well below that of "hot" fusion. However, it produces no usable power.
And lastly we have the unaccepted idea of ZPE (or any other of a slew of similar names) that involves energy being extracted via processes not yet understood by science. This supposedly creates usable energy output with very little (or no) initial energy input.

 

[Jangle]

i saw a tv program where this guy discovers cold fusion and then goes crazy and holds a whole school hostage. and then dies.

 

[Tr0n]

i saw a tv program where this guy discovers cold fusion and then goes crazy and holds a whole school hostage. and then dies.

Yea I saw that also!At the end up the episode it showed another guy working on one...the teacher gets kinda mad at the guy for something and the student walks out.

That one?

 

[Jangle]

Yea I saw that also!At the end up the episode it showed another guy working on one...the teacher gets kinda mad at the guy for something and the student walks out.

That one?

Yeah thats the one. It was one of those wierd science fiction programs.

 

[Tr0n]

Yeah thats the one. It was one of those wierd science fiction programs.

Yea I forgot the name of it...but it came on the Sci-Fi channel all the time.