Nationalism

[ComradeBadger]

Proud of your nation? What exactly are you proud of?

One might as well be proud of being blonde; you played no more part in being born with that hair colour than you did in being born in that particular nation. Throughout your school career you will be taught of your nation?s accomplishments, essentially leading you to think that success is a national characteristic ? more often than not, your nation?s failings and the successes of other nations are not taught. There are of course, ideological reasons for this.

What is, for that matter a nation?
A nation is in essence an imagined community, it isn?t tangible ? borders fluctuate ? it often contains many different ethnic groups. What ties these people together? A common identity or the idea of a shared history and heritage, again something that doesn?t quite make sense, because even by placing events chronologically in a narrative you affect the overall narrative simply by omitting certain events and leaving other events in ? you affect its impartiality. This is often done entirely on purpose, with narratives created specifically to lead people to think in a certain way.


Food for thought perhaps?

 

[Solaris]

Proud of your nation? What exactly are you proud of?

One might as well be proud of being blonde; you played no more part in being born with that hair colour than you did in being born in that particular nation. Throughout your school career you will be taught of your nation?s accomplishments, essentially leading you to think that success is a national characteristic ? more often than not, your nation?s failings and the successes of other nations are not taught. There are of course, ideological reasons for this.

What is, for that matter a nation?
A nation is in essence an imagined community, it isn?t tangible ? borders fluctuate ? it often contains many different ethnic groups. What ties these people together? A common identity or the idea of a shared history and heritage, again something that doesn?t quite make sense, because even by placing events chronologically in a narrative you affect the overall narrative simply by omitting certain events and leaving other events in ? you affect its impartiality. This is often done entirely on purpose, with narratives created specifically to lead people to think in a certain way.


Food for thought perhaps?

I agree with you mostly, I think kirkovman once said something like "By the way their complaining about people hoisting the union jack, you'd think it represented decades of repression and imperialism.". It's funny and true. Being proud to be English is retarded, England nor any country really has a history worth being proud of. I suppose you could be proud to be a member of said country, but thats only likely to be valid under a socialist or otherwise collective social system.

James Conolly, one of the most prominent Irish nationalists of this century has said a few very interesting and truthful things imo.

If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain.


England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.


England would still rule you to your ruin, even while your lips offered hypocritical homage at the shrine of that Freedom whose cause you had betrayed.


Nationalism without Socialism ? without a reorganisation of society on the basis of a broader and more developed form of that common property which underlay the social structure of Ancient Erin - is only national recreancy.


It would be tantamount to a public declaration that our oppressors had so far succeeded in inoculating us with their perverted conceptions of justice and morality that we had finally decided to accept those conceptions as our own, and no longer needed an alien army to force them upon us.


As a Socialist I am prepared to do all one man can do to achieve for our motherland her rightful heritage ? independence; but if you ask me to abate one jot or tittle of the claims of social justice, in order to conciliate the privileged classes, then I must decline.

 

[kirovman]

Nationalism is a tool for politicians to push their societies into some agenda blindly andunquestioningly.

BTW Patriotism and Nationalism are different, but I guess they are two branches of the same tree.

Then again, I think it's healthy to have a sense of cohesion with the people you meet everyday, your neighbours, but you don't need nationhood as an excuse for that, and certainly not to the detriment of other societies who you will periodically encounter, and not blindly and uncritically.

At the end of the day we're all human beings and I'd like to think we can move beyond discrimination on the basis of nationality.

I think kirkovman once said something like "By the way their complaining about people hoisting the union jack, you'd think it represented decades of repression and imperialism.". It's funny and true.

I may have said something like that before, but I never said "There's no black in Union Jack" :shh:

 

[99.vikram]

I'm proud that I was born and brought up into a culture which respects certain values (which I won't enumerate here).

My country itself is just a patch of dirt on which we live.

 

[Some_God]

Traitors!

 

[jondy]

There's a cultural 'identity' that is an inherent part of nationalism, the term isn't solely comprised of geographical/historical coincidence. The idea of a 'people' can be very compelling

 

[ComradeBadger]

But it's essentially an invented concept - it serves an idelogical need.

 

[Ennui]

Not necessarily. I'm not getting into semantics about nationalism or patriotism here, because that'll just detract from what I have to say, but the point is that regardless of what you call it, I'm proud to be an American. Not in today's global culture, no, because our current administration has made a thousand and one decisions that I strongly disagree with; but given my country's history, people, and achievements, I am proud that I'm part of the next generation of that slice of the world population that is able to call themselves Americans.

We were founded on revolution fighting for what we think is right, and (after a few years lolligagging around with the Articles of Confederation) wrote a progressive document that paved the way for a wonderful system of government. Modern interpretation of said Constitution is regrettably far from what I believe the Framer's intention to be, but I cannot have anything but respect for a group of people who chartered their government with the specific right inherent to change it if need be.

I hate George Bush and most of the things he's done in power. I think our current government is largely misguided and spends too much time quabbling over insignificant matters and that most of them don't understand or care about what truely is at stake, but you can't fault them for that any more than you can fault the vast majority of humanity for being who we are.

Unfortunately for most of my fellow Americans, though, I think that if we don't get our act together we're going to drive this country straight into the ground, and given how large a mass this country has, metaphorically speaking, we're going to break right through the ground and plow through the ceiling of Hell in the process.

 

[ComradeBadger]

How can you be proud of something you had absolutely no influence over?

 

[CyberPitz]

How can you be proud of something you had absolutely no influence over?

You're proud to be part of it, one way or another.

 

[Ennui]

How can you be proud of something you had absolutely no influence over?

I'm proud to be born in a place that has done good things in the past, and I'm proud of the opportunity to influence and shape it in the future to help prevent it from doing evil in the future. I'm proud to be associated with the better parts of my fellow Americans, and willing to work towards helping change the worse parts.

 

[DaMaN]

I'm proud to be born in a place that was robbed from Native Americans.

 

[Ennui]

Every country in the world has done unimagineably terrible things. That does not excuse them; but you have to put it in perspective. The only thing we can do now is work towards not repeating our terrible actions from the past and trying to make amends with our future.

 

[DaMaN]

Every country in the world has done unimagineably terrible things. That does not excuse them; but you have to put it in perspective. The only thing we can do now is work towards not repeating our terrible actions from the past and trying to make amends with our future.

Oh I agree.

I just think it's odd to be proud of a country founded on genocide.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I'm nationalistic for other countries; those netherlandish nations seem to really have their shit together.

Instead of pride, I'm really more thankful to live in the best first-world country this side of the pacific, and in the top ten or twenty overall. It's just nice having good living conditions and, importantly for me, relatively unskeezy politicians.

 

[Ennui]

Oh I agree.

I just think it's odd to be proud of a country founded on genocide.

Well, I'm obviously not proud of that part. I don't think it's even a question of balance, at least not unless it's an extreme case. There have been a lot of terrible things I disagree with, I feel like those were mostly digressions from the real spirit of the country.

The America that I believe in didn't bomb Hiroshima, or displace/murder Native Americans, or shoot student protestors at Kent State, or go into Vietnam or Iraq, or consider banning gay marriage, or execute criminals, what have you.

It's an idealistic approach but I think that's pretty much acknowledged anyway.

 

[Asknoone]

Good post Badger. Nationalism...hah.

 

[gick]

I think Badger has the right idea generally. For me, a country is just an imaginary line in the ground. As far as im concerned, ideas are far more important - ideas like Democracy, free speech, justice etc. Luckily, I live in a country where those things are (generally) the norm.

If I had to, I would fight for this country, not for the Queen or the Union Jack, but for things like Democracy, rule of law, freedom (heck, I'd even fight to defend socialised healthcare!) - but if Britain abandoned those things, became a dictatorship or invaded ****ing Holland or something, you can bet that I'd turn around and fight against it too.

Ive met and befriended people from all over the world, Japanese people, Hungarian people, American people, German people, and I have a lot more in common with these people who share my beliefs and values than I do with the wife beating BNP councillor who lives down the road.

 

[ríomhaire]

I feel pride is only waranted when you put a significant effort into creating something that turns out fantasticly. As I am extremly lazy, I am not proud of anything.

 

[repiV]

I think Badger has the right idea generally. For me, a country is just an imaginary line in the ground. As far as im concerned, ideas are far more important - ideas like Democracy, free speech, justice etc. Luckily, I live in a country where those things are (generally) the norm.

If I had to, I would fight for this country, not for the Queen or the Union Jack, but for things like Democracy, rule of law, freedom (heck, I'd even fight to defend socialised healthcare!) - but if Britain abandoned those things, became a dictatorship or invaded ****ing Holland or something, you can bet that I'd turn around and fight against it too.

Ive met and befriended people from all over the world, Japanese people, Hungarian people, American people, German people, and I have a lot more in common with these people who share my beliefs and values than I do with the wife beating BNP councillor who lives down the road.

Nations are defined by ideas much moreso than geography. Democracy, free speech and justice are things that define Britishness and what it means to be British. The union jack and the queen are merely symbols of that Britishness.
Presumably based on your above statements, you would fight to defend this Britishness. I would say you are a patriot but you just don't realise it.

Patriotism, for example, reaches fever pitch in America because America is a nation founded solely on ideology. What it means to be American is something that was envisioned by the founders and settlers and has carried over in the national character over the generations. It was no accident.

If you can be proud of being a liberal or a Christian or whatever group you associate yourself with, then you can just as rationally be proud of being American. Or British, for that matter.

 

[Candy art]

I'm proud to be an American.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm nationalistic for other countries; those netherlandish nations seem to really have their shit together.

Instead of pride, I'm really more thankful to live in the best first-world country this side of the pacific, and in the top ten or twenty overall. It's just nice having good living conditions and, importantly for me, relatively unskeezy politicians.

Ditto.

 

[Ennui]

Absinthe, I assume you concur on all points except the unskeezy politicians one

 

[gick]

Nations are defined by ideas much moreso than geography. Democracy, free speech and justice are things that define Britishness and what it means to be British. The union jack and the queen are merely symbols of that Britishness.
Presumably based on your above statements, you would fight to defend this Britishness. I would say you are a patriot but you just don't realise it.

Patriotism, for example, reaches fever pitch in America because America is a nation founded solely on ideology. What it means to be American is something that was envisioned by the founders and settlers and has carried over in the national character over the generations. It was no accident.

I see what you mean, but I dont think those things nescessarily define 'Britishness'. Britain can only really claim to have stood for the values I listed in the last 50 years or so - before the 20th century all that Britain stood for was its Empire. The point im trying to make is that what does or does not constitute Britishness can and has changed over the years. Which is why I said I would fight against Britian if it was in oppostion to these ideals - say, for instance, if I was alive in the 1770s, I would have sided with the Americans in their War of Independence, as their side would, to me, have been the morally/ideologically correct one.

The way I see it, a 'nationalist' certainly, and a probably a 'patriot' is someone who puts country above ideology, whatever the circumstances.

Sorry if that wasnt as eloquent as it could have been, im knackered right now and I dont think my brain is quite up to any kind of debate.

 

[Absinthe]

Absinthe, I assume you concur on all points except the unskeezy politicians one

*Plugs fingers in ears*

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. OUR POLITICIANS ARE HONEST AND ALWAYS PUT THE PEOPLE FIRST. I CAN'T HEAR YOU. I CAN'T HEAR YOU.
LALALALALALALALALALA

 

[Ennui]

YOU CANNOT DENY THE SKEEZY

caps

 

[Jintor]

I am proud to be an Australian.

 

[repiV]

I see what you mean, but I dont think those things nescessarily define 'Britishness'. Britain can only really claim to have stood for the values I listed in the last 50 years or so - before the 20th century all that Britain stood for was its Empire. The point im trying to make is that what does or does not constitute Britishness can and has changed over the years. Which is why I said I would fight against Britian if it was in oppostion to these ideals - say, for instance, if I was alive in the 1770s, I would have sided with the Americans in their War of Independence, as their side would, to me, have been the morally/ideologically correct one.

Britain stood for much besides its empire...it stood for innovation, civilisation and many things beside. Not too long ago, London was the centre of the civilised world. Our history is the envy of the world - if anything, we have fallen from glory.
I, too, would have sided with the Americans - and in terms of ideology consider myself far more American than anything else. Perhaps this makes me an American patriot?
This doesn't preclude me from believing in the "British way", although my patience is certainly wearing thin at how far and how quickly this country is sinking.
Life is a fluid experience of events that are always changing the world around us...of course the definition of Britishness has changed over time. But it is the people that generate that change.

The way I see it, a 'nationalist' certainly, and a probably a 'patriot' is someone who puts country above ideology, whatever the circumstances.

Sorry if that wasnt as eloquent as it could have been, im knackered right now and I dont think my brain is quite up to any kind of debate.

It really depends on how you define "country". As far as I'm concerned, the nation exists to serve the people, and the nation is defined by its people -not the other way around - looking out for the people's best interests is patriotic.

 

[Leviticus]

I'm proud of the community around me in which I have a part. My neighborhood. My county. My school. All thos other spheres in which I can claim, quite modestly, to have some influence. I don't think that kind of pride is imaginary at all, and although I don't really think about my nation very much, considering it is only an ideological and political entity to me within a globalised world, I'm sure there are some people out there who trully feel like they are an integral part of the United States.

Nationalism as a way to close yourself off to the world around you is silly and wrong. Nationalism as a goodnatured pride in your community, however, is rather harmless the way I see it.

 

[Adabiviak]

It's rare that the US does something as a whole that I can feel proud of. I get a feeling like nationalism/patriotism when, say, NASA's Deep Impact probe hit the comet. That was tough, and there weren't (as far as I can tell) any political/religious/social reasons - purely a very difficult science experiment that went as planned. I get the same feeling for things like this that are joint efforts between different nations, but I can't call that nationalism - I don't even know what to call that? I'm always proud of the scientific community (borders notwithstanding) that sets and achieves difficult goals, especially when they aren't tainted by politics/religion/war.

 

[15357]

I'm am proud to be a Korean, and will defend the interests of my country and the Korean people with my life if need be.

 

[Jintor]

Because j00 are brainwashed!

 

[Langolier]

Nations are defined by ideas much moreso than geography. Democracy, free speech and justice are things that define Britishness and what it means to be British. The union jack and the queen are merely symbols of that Britishness.
Presumably based on your above statements, you would fight to defend this Britishness. I would say you are a patriot but you just don't realise it.

Patriotism, for example, reaches fever pitch in America because America is a nation founded solely on ideology. What it means to be American is something that was envisioned by the founders and settlers and has carried over in the national character over the generations. It was no accident.

If you can be proud of being a liberal or a Christian or whatever group you associate yourself with, then you can just as rationally be proud of being American. Or British, for that matter.

I don't have much, if anything to really add, but well said.

Am I personally responsible for what my ancestors have accomplished, or done? No, but I'm still proud of them. I don't love ever act that my country has partaken in, but the very fact that it questions and second guesses itself is something worthy of pride.

 

[15357]

Because j00 are brainwashed!

I call it, "Education".

 

[Mechagodzilla]

...defend the interests of your race? What?

 

[15357]

HUMANITY!


That sounded kinda wrong. I meant the people, not the race. Ugh. D:

 

[ComradeBadger]

Nations are defined by ideas much moreso than geography. Democracy, free speech and justice are things that define Britishness and what it means to be British.

These are fairly nebulous concepts, they're not really tangible, if you asked someone what it meant be British, I'm pretty sure that's not how they'd respond. Even if that is what's felt, it doesn't nessarily follow that it is true. For example, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the British justice system was less concerned with providing fair justice for all, but more concerned with protecting the rights of the propertied classes. Read 'Albion's Fatal Tree' - for essays on that subject. I've done archive work that somewhat supports that arguement.

The union jack and the queen are merely symbols of that Britishness.

Again, artificial constructs - used to fufil ideological needs.

Patriotism, for example, reaches fever pitch in America because America is a nation founded solely on ideology. What it means to be American is something that was envisioned by the founders and settlers and has carried over in the national character over the generations. It was no accident.

This I agree with, the ideology of America HAS to be strongly enforced, as they have only a limited supply of History to draw upon to tie people together, and as it is also very much an immigrant nation (and was founded as such)

If you can be proud of being a liberal or a Christian or whatever group you associate yourself with, then you can just as rationally be proud of being American. Or British, for that matter.

But what is there to be proud of? An altered narrative constructed to serve ideological needs, to create hegemony?

 

[Stigmata]

I think it's innately more logical to be proud of one's beliefs than to be proud of being born somewhere, simply because you get to choose your beliefs. Saying I'm proud to be Canadian is sort of like saying I'm proud of having eyes - sure it's really cool having eyes, and it's something of pretty high quality, but I had nothing to do with it.

Really I'm just too tired right now to come up with anything else

 

[oldagerocker]

In terms of nationalism creating hegemony.. it's probably most interesting to look at the rise of nazism in Germany. People were proud to be German, always were and wanted that pride restored after the defeat in world war 1 and the reparations.
But they were proud to be German because of what it meant to be german, under the weimar republic they had a strong leader, germany had a good economy. However, i'm not an expert.

The Nazi's used what we i assume most people would called un-german principles to reinstill the nationality, as a means of going to war.
People were fighting and being patriotic because they wanted the old, successful germany back, with its democracy, power, influence etc not because they saw nazi ideals as typically german.

I'm not entirely sure now that im getting at.

 

[ComradeBadger]

See that's what the great debate in German History is, whether Nazism is simply a product of German national character and other factors at the time, or whether it represents something entirely un-german.

The Weimar Republic was an absolute disaster, weak politically, and suffered badly after the wall street crash.