Izzies storm aid ship headed for Gaza

[Bob_Marley]

BBC link

More than 10 people have been killed after Israeli commandos stormed a convoy of ships carrying aid to the Gaza Strip, the Israeli army says.

Armed forces boarded the vessels overnight, clashing with some of the 600 protesters on board.

The exact location of the interception is unclear. Israel had warned the ships not to enter its territorial waters.

The ships are carrying 10,000 tonnes of aid to try to break a long-standing Israeli-led blockade.

Israel says its forces were attacked by activists when they got on board.

"The people on the boats were very, very violent toward the soldiers," Israeli military spokeswoman Lt Col Avital Leibovich was quoted as saying by AFP news agency.

Organisers of the flotilla said at least 30 people were wounded in the incident.

Had it coming IMO. Israel said they would not permit the ship to enter Israeli waters, but they went ahead anyway. If theres one thing history should have tought people it is you don't mess about with Israel.

 

[unozero]

The people on the ship were all holocaust deniers they deserved it

 

[Sparta]

The people on the ship were all holocaust deniers they deserved it

Where on Earth are pulling this from and how does this justify being shot and killed?

 

[unozero]

It was a joke Sparta.
I'm no friend of Israel lol.
I can't wait how the U.S media will spin this


"Ship full of Terrorists attacked by righteous IDF Commando etc"

 

[Bob_Marley]

Yeah, Israel should be free to kill any number of protestors th- What?

The "protesters" were given warning not to attempt to enter Israeli waters. The "protesters" fired the first live rounds. They also attempted to take the Israeli's weapons and to beat and stab them.

 

[Ennui]

The "protesters" were given warning not to attempt to enter Israeli waters. The "protesters" fired the first live rounds. They also attempted to take the Israeli's weapons and to beat and stab them.

1) The activists were only delivering humanitarian aid
2) They protected their ships from UNLAWFUL BOARDING in INTERNATIONAL WATERS by fighting against machinegun-wielding Israeli commandos by HITTING THEM WITH STICKS AND KNIVES
3) An activist attempted to wrestle a commando's gun away, probably because IT WAS POINTED AT HIS FACE
4) Gun discharged, nobody knows if it was on purpose or not
5) Israelis respond by opening indiscriminate fire, killing a dozen and wounding four or five times as many more
6) Four Israelis were injured, none were killed, and only one was hit by gunfire

GEE THAT REALLY ADDS UP HUH BUDDY? It's totally their fault for provoking the Israeli military, who is TOTALLY not to blame for and is completely justified in murdering a dozen people and shooting 30+ more in order to prevent them from delivering wheelchairs and water purifiers to the Gaza Strip

 

[Sparta]

It was a joke Sparta.
I'm no friend of Israel lol.
I can't wait how the U.S media will spin this

lol oh man, my bad.

The "protesters" were given warning not to attempt to enter Israeli waters. The "protesters" fired the first live rounds. They also attempted to take the Israeli's weapons and to beat and stab them.

It's fair enough that Israel warned them to leave their waters, and it's certainly within their rights to board their ship and force them out of their waters, but how can you believe that an aid ship carrying protestors would deliberately attack a Navy vessel of a nation that has a history of deliberately shooting at and killing unarmed civilian protestors?

And that's also ignoring the fact that it's common practice for IDF soldiers to lie about civilians having firearms in reports after these incidents. On other occasions they've opened fire on unarmed civilians who weren't provoking them in anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Avery

Also, this

AP publishes Israeli spin on attack on aid flotilla
The Associated Press has finally corrected its earlier report, which claimed that only 2 people had been killed. It now reports that 10 have been killed, although other news reports say that at least 16 to 20 were killed.

Moreover, AP neglects to tell readers that the attack consisted of an assault by Israeli gunships, helicopters, and commanders.

In addition, AP's report makes it appear to readers that the Israeli soldiers were the victims – despite the fact that the boats contained nonviolent humanitarian volunteers, members of parliament, and a Nobel Peace Laureate; and that it was Israeli forces, members of the 4th-5th most powerful military on earth, who attacked the aid ship in international waters.

None of this information was contained in the AP report, which largely repeats Israeli military spin.

AP also fails to report that the flotilla contains a US Navy survivor of Israel's attack on a US ship, the USS Liberty. The convoy also contains a former ambassador and career foreign service officer, Ambassador Edward Peck, who was also Chief of Mission to Iraq and deputy director of President Ronald Reagan's Cabinet Task Force on Terrorism.

AP also neglects to mention the extreme need in Gaza that motivated people on board the flotilla to try to bring aid to Gaza. A recent Amnesty International report stated that Israel's siege on Gaza has created a humanitarian crisis in which four out of five Gaza residents need humanitarian assistance, hundreds are waiting to to be allowed out for medical treatment, and 28 already have died.

“Mass unemployment, extreme poverty, food insecurity and food price rises caused by shortages left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid,” said the 2010 report, released Thursday. “The scope of the blockade and statements made by Israeli officials about its purpose showed that it was being imposed as a form of collective punishment of Gazans, a flagrant violation of international law.”

http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/

So you really believe that Israel boarded a humanitarian vessel and was fired upon by protestors?

Oh, and it turns out they were out 65kms in international waters, so what Israel did actually amounts to an act of piracy.

 

[Ennui]

This report from MSNBC has a lot less Israeli-biased language than the AP report:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

A reporter on one of the boats said the Israelis fired at the vessel before boarding it. Israeli officials said the soldiers were attacked with knives, clubs and iron bars as they boarded the six vessels. The Israeli military said the violence turned deadly after one of the activists grabbed a weapon from one of the commandos. The weapon discharged, though it wasn't clear whether the activist fired it or if it went off accidentally.

Some 700 pro-Palestinian activists are on the boats, including 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire of Northern Ireland, European legislators and an elderly Holocaust survivor.

NBC News reported that 11 Americans were among the civilians aboard the ships. They include a former ambassador and a former State Department official.

Israeli naval commandos raided the ships while they were in international waters after ordering them to stop about 80 miles from Gaza's coast

The boats are carrying items that Israel bars from reaching Gaza, like cement and other building materials. The activists said they also were carrying hundreds of electric-powered wheelchairs, prefabricated homes and water purifiers.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said that after a security check, permitted humanitarian aid confiscated from the boats will be transferred to Gaza through authorized channels. However, Israel would not transfer items it has banned from Gaza under its blockade rules. Palmor said that for example, cement would be allowed only if it is tied to a specific project.

Cement to rebuild the hundreds/thousands of Palestinian civilians' homes that were destroyed in last year's Israeli offensive into the Strip, ostensibly to prevent Hamas from firing rockets at Israel but really just punishing innocent people for what a few militants are doing.

 

[Gargantou]

There's a few notable Swedes in the convoy for those interested.

Dror Feiler, a Swedish-Israeli artist.

Edda Manga, a well-known Swedish historian.

Henning Mankell, a very(nationally) popular Swedish author,

Mattias Gardell, Swedish historian and husband of Edda Manga.

And finally, Mehmet Kaplan, a Swedish politician that sits in our parliament representing the Green Party.

 

[VirusType2]

I don't see why they sailed in there after being warned they would not be allowed in at any cost. They want to be martyrs? Standing in front of a tank is a tough job.

 

[Barnz]

The people on the ship were all holocaust deniers they deserved it

get the **** out of this place

 

[Sparta]

get the **** out of this place

He was joking dude. Don't worry, I thought he was serious too.

 

[Baserape>]

The people on the ship over reacted to the boarding. Israel has every right to search any ship they see as a threat.

I would not be surprised if this was a Hamas publicity stunt.

 

[Sparta]

The people on the ship over reacted to the boarding. Israel has every right to search any ship they see as a threat.

I would not be surprised if this was a Hamas publicity stunt.

Jesus Christ, can you read? Does anyone read anything before posting in this thread? What the **** is a matter with people.

The ship was in international waters. They had as much right to board the ship as ****ing Santa Claus. Not mentio- **** it I'll just quote my post again and you can read it

It's fair enough that Israel warned them to leave their waters, and it's certainly within their rights to board their ship and force them out of their waters, but how can you believe that an aid ship carrying protestors would deliberately attack a Navy vessel of a nation that has a history of deliberately shooting at and killing unarmed civilian protestors?

And that's also ignoring the fact that it's common practice for IDF soldiers to lie about civilians having firearms in reports after these incidents. On other occasions they've opened fire on unarmed civilians who weren't provoking them in anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_M...28filmmaker)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Avery

Also, this

AP publishes Israeli spin on attack on aid flotilla
The Associated Press has finally corrected its earlier report, which claimed that only 2 people had been killed. It now reports that 10 have been killed, although other news reports say that at least 16 to 20 were killed.

Moreover, AP neglects to tell readers that the attack consisted of an assault by Israeli gunships, helicopters, and commanders.

In addition, AP's report makes it appear to readers that the Israeli soldiers were the victims – despite the fact that the boats contained nonviolent humanitarian volunteers, members of parliament, and a Nobel Peace Laureate; and that it was Israeli forces, members of the 4th-5th most powerful military on earth, who attacked the aid ship in international waters.

None of this information was contained in the AP report, which largely repeats Israeli military spin.

AP also fails to report that the flotilla contains a US Navy survivor of Israel's attack on a US ship, the USS Liberty. The convoy also contains a former ambassador and career foreign service officer, Ambassador Edward Peck, who was also Chief of Mission to Iraq and deputy director of President Ronald Reagan's Cabinet Task Force on Terrorism.

AP also neglects to mention the extreme need in Gaza that motivated people on board the flotilla to try to bring aid to Gaza. A recent Amnesty International report stated that Israel's siege on Gaza has created a humanitarian crisis in which four out of five Gaza residents need humanitarian assistance, hundreds are waiting to to be allowed out for medical treatment, and 28 already have died.

“Mass unemployment, extreme poverty, food insecurity and food price rises caused by shortages left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid,” said the 2010 report, released Thursday. “The scope of the blockade and statements made by Israeli officials about its purpose showed that it was being imposed as a form of collective punishment of Gazans, a flagrant violation of international law.”

http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/

So you really believe that Israel boarded a humanitarian vessel and was fired upon by protestors?

Oh, and it turns out they were out 65kms in international waters, so what Israel did actually amounts to an act of piracy.

Jesus Christ, it's no wonder most of America believes Israel is always in the right, nobody ****ing reads anything besides what U.S. news agencies report about on Israel (who are atrociously biased), if they read the news in the first place.

 

[VirusType2]

Never mind.

 

[Sparta]

"Ship full of Terrorists attacked by righteous IDF Commando etc"

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137795

Navy Prepared to Face Anarchists, Met Terrorists Instead

It's not quite American, but ten bucks says in 12 hours or so this will be the talking point on Fox News, while CNN asks the viewers "Were they terrorists?" instead of outright saying it.

 

[Warped]

It seems like majority of the people dislike Israel lately, and I'd have to agree. Every move they've made recently is very belligerent like.

Israeli raid met with global protests

Protesters gather in front of the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, France, on Monday during a demonstration against Israel's deadly raid on an aid flotilla.

(CNN) -- As world leaders came out Monday against an Israeli raid on a flotilla carrying humanitarian supplies to Gaza, so did protesters in various cities around the world.

In New York's Times Square, more than 500 people gathered and then marched through midtown to the Israeli consulate.

One of the protest's organizers, Lamis Deek, told CNN that planning for the protest began almost immediately as soon as news of the Israel's storming of the flotilla was broadcast. At least nine pro-Palestinian activists, who were trying to deliver aid to Gaza by circumventing an Israeli blockade, were killed.

The incident exposed "what the Israeli government and its structures are capable of doing and what their intentions are, not just toward the Palestinian people, but rather toward the Arab world and anyone who challenges their policies," Deek said.

Read the latest news about the attack

In France, hundreds of pro-Palestinian demonstrators, throwing rocks and beer bottles, fought police Monday night in an attempt to reach the Israeli Embassy in Paris.

Police closed the Champs Elysees to traffic as they confronted nearly 1,000 protesters.

Police arrested several demonstrators and fired tear gas in an effort to disperse the crowd. French political figure and trade unionist Olivier Besancenot appeared at the demonstration.

Demonstrators smashed a police truck window, and attempted to force their way through police lines blocking the embassy.

At 8:15 p.m., (2:15 p.m. ET) as the crowd appeared to be breaking up, the police were making what appeared to be a final push to disperse the crowd.

Meanwhile, hundreds of supporters of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr took to the streets of Baghdad, Iraq, in protest.

The demonstrators carried Palestinian flags, Iraqi flags, banners and pictures of al-Sadr.

They chanted: "No, no Israel, no, no America, yes, yes Palestine."

Some of the banners were written in English and strongly criticized Israel's response to the flotilla.

"My message to the world and especially to the Islamic and Arab world (is) that they should take practical steps to punish Israel not only on this crime but on all the crimes that Israel has committed before because the condemn and denounce letters and messages are not enough anymore," one of the protesters, Abdul Zahar al-Tamimi told CNN.

A number of Iraqi parliament members and politicians participated in the protest, including the Iraqi interior minister.

Israelis themselves also protested, but against Turkey for calling an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council Monday.

Hundreds of Israelis in Tel Aviv gathered in front of the Turkish Embassy there to protest Turkish involvement in the incident, according to the website Ynet.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/israel.gaza.protests/index.html?hpt=T1

 

[Uriel]

Yeah... entering a sovereign nation's water's and then refusing to leave is asking for it, no matter what country you're from despite the reason of entering. Throw in that Israel is constantly defending itself from attacks and must be cautious adds to it.

It's like walking towards a pit-bull on a chain. The dog is growling and barking but the individual continues to walk towards the dog followed by more growling and snapping. The dog then bites the person.

Was it right for the dog to bite the person? It's debatable, although I would argue to agree that Israel could have handled it better. However, was it utterly stupid for the person (people on the boat) to continue onward even after a warning was given.

 

[Solaris]

Yeah... entering a sovereign nation's water's and then refusing to leave is asking for it, no matter what country you're from despite the reason of entering. Throw in that Israel is constantly defending itself from attacks and must be cautious adds to it.

It's like walking towards a pit-bull on a chain. The dog is growling and barking but the individual continues to walk towards the dog followed by more growling and snapping. The dog then bites the person.

Was it right for the dog to bite the person? It's debatable, although I would argue to agree that Israel could have handled it better. However, was it utterly stupid for the person (people on the boat) to continue onward even after a warning was given.

Did you read the ****ing article, or this thread before posting?
THEY WERE IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS

Jesus, no wonder US foreign policy is so messed up when the population won't even read a news article without spewing their uninformed opinions.

 

[unozero]

Uriel is a special case, he's from Utah



Anyways I also first thought that the Palestinians were overreacting when the IDF boarded but it turns out they were shooting at the ship before the boarding lol so yeah I would be upset too and grab random metal objects to defend myself.

 

[Bob_Marley]

1) The activists were only delivering humanitarian aid
2) They protected their ships from UNLAWFUL BOARDING in INTERNATIONAL WATERS by fighting against machinegun-wielding Israeli commandos by HITTING THEM WITH STICKS AND KNIVES
3) An activist attempted to wrestle a commando's gun away, probably because IT WAS POINTED AT HIS FACE
4) Gun discharged, nobody knows if it was on purpose or not
5) Israelis respond by opening indiscriminate fire, killing a dozen and wounding four or five times as many more
6) Four Israelis were injured, none were killed, and only one was hit by gunfire

GEE THAT REALLY ADDS UP HUH BUDDY? It's totally their fault for provoking the Israeli military, who is TOTALLY not to blame for and is completely justified in murdering a dozen people and shooting 30+ more in order to prevent them from delivering wheelchairs and water purifiers to the Gaza Strip

1) This is not, and never has been, about delivering aid. If it were the aid would have been sent through the channels offered by Israel at the start of the expedition. This was an entirely political operation designed to produce a response from Israel.

2) Israel is in a state of conflict with the government of Gaza, which does not reconise the right of Israel to exist. Blocade, under such circumstances, is a state's sovergin right. If the Israelis were out to kill them they'd have just fired an anti-ship missile at it. Or, you know, not issued the boarding team less-leathal weapons and attempted to subdue the crew via less-lethal means. The response of the crew was foolish, to say the least. Well, foolish if you're not out to get a political statement with all those lovely pictures of little old ladies in hajibs carrying blood stained stretchers to show the Israelis as the blood thirsty animals they so clearly are.

3) Because thats a sensible thing to do when surrounded by IDF ships. I suppose it was also perfectly sensible to take a pistol from an IDF Soldier's holster then attempt to shoot him with it.

I mean being peace protesters its not like they'd believe in anything like non-violent resistance, is it?

4) Guess we'll have to wait for the full report to come out, wont we?

So you really believe that Israel boarded a humanitarian vessel and was fired upon by protestors?

You really believe that the IDF deliberately boarded a humanitarian vessel, opened fire unprovoked and indescriminately on the eve of high level Israel-US talks?

Cement to rebuild the hundreds/thousands of Palestinian civilians' homes that were destroyed in last year's Israeli offensive into the Strip, ostensibly to prevent Hamas from firing rockets at Israel but really just punishing innocent people for what a few militants are doing.

A few militants. Who happen to be the elected (well, they were elected then wiped out thier coalition partners Fatah in the Gaza Strip in a bloody coup to cease total control) government of the Gaza strip. Who are currently in a state of conflict with Israel.

They want to be martyrs? Standing in front of a tank is a tough job.

Yes, they do. They wanted blood on Israeli hands, not aid for Gaza. Which is why the "peace protesters" tried to beat, stab and shoot the boarding party to death rather than using non violent resistance like they claimed they would.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAMFnu8ZBwk&feature=player_embedded

Yup. They look real peaceful to me.

Now, I'm not saying that Israel's response wasn't stupid - it was. They gave these people exactly what they wanted. It certainly could have been handled better. But its hardly a case of some poor innocent hippies being massacred by the IDF.

 

[delusional]

A few militants. Who happen to be the elected (well, they were elected then wiped out thier coalition partners Fatah in the Gaza Strip in a bloody coup to cease total control) government of the Gaza strip. Who are currently in a state of conflict with Israel.

You have it wrong. The US and Israel pushed for elections in Gaza, but when Hamas won they didn't like it so they decided to back a Fatah coup, but it was botched when Hamas preemptively defeated Fatah and took full power.

Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.)

But the secret plan backfired, resulting in a further setback for American foreign policy under Bush. Instead of driving its enemies out of power, the U.S.-backed Fatah fighters inadvertently provoked Hamas to seize total control of Gaza.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804?currentPage=1

 

[Gargantou]

Well, it's been reported that the Turkish group who helped organized the convoy, IHH, have been previously linked to radical Islamist groups, including Hamas, being used as a recruiting platform for these organisations.

These reports existed long before this event took place I might add.

Also, on board the Turkish vessels, high-powered slingshots with accompanying pellets were also discovered, these high-powered slingshots can be just as lethal as bullets in the proper hands.

I'm not defending the Israeli's actions, but I'm just saying that there's more to this story than just "Israeli military attacking unarmed civilians."

P.S. I don't think any sane person can claim that Hamas isn't far more radical and far more opposed to any form of two-state solution than Fatah was/is.

 

[Nabobalis]

Well, it's been reported that the Turkish group who helped organized the convoy, IHH, have been previously linked to radical Islamist groups, including Hamas, being used as a recruiting platform for these organisations.

These reports existed long before this event took place I might add.

Also, on board the Turkish vessels, high-powered slingshots with accompanying pellets were also discovered, these high-powered slingshots can be just as lethal as bullets in the proper hands.

I'm not defending the Israeli's actions, but I'm just saying that there's more to this story than just "Israeli military attacking unarmed civilians."

We will have to wait for the EU/USA/UN to announce what happened after an investigation.

 

[Gargantou]

Nabobalis, you are aware that an international investigation was not agreed upon, hence most likely the investigation will be conducted by Israel only, hence they will announce what happened.

At least that's what I've read.

 

[Sparta]

1) This is not, and never has been, about delivering aid. If it were the aid would have been sent through the channels offered by Israel at the start of the expedition. This was an entirely political operation designed to produce a response from Israel.

2) Israel is in a state of conflict with the government of Gaza, which does not reconise the right of Israel to exist. Blocade, under such circumstances, is a state's sovergin right. If the Israelis were out to kill them they'd have just fired an anti-ship missile at it. Or, you know, not issued the boarding team less-leathal weapons and attempted to subdue the crew via less-lethal means. The response of the crew was foolish, to say the least. Well, foolish if you're not out to get a political statement with all those lovely pictures of little old ladies in hajibs carrying blood stained stretchers to show the Israelis as the blood thirsty animals they so clearly are.

None of this applies when you're in INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

3) Because thats a sensible thing to do when surrounded by IDF ships. I suppose it was also perfectly sensible to take a pistol from an IDF Soldier's holster then attempt to shoot him with it.

I mean being peace protesters its not like they'd believe in anything like non-violent resistance, is it?

Maybe they panicked because the vessels had already opened fire on them before boarding them, which is what some of the prior leaked reports suggest is what happened.

4) Guess we'll have to wait for the full report to come out, wont we?

You really believe the IDF, who have a history of lying, obfuscating and twisting the reports of these kind of incidents will end up telling the full story?

You really believe that the IDF deliberately boarded a humanitarian vessel, opened fire unprovoked and indescriminately on the eve of high level Israel-US talks?

Maybe you'll have to read up on Operation Cast Lead, where they did exactly that. Maybe you could ask Emily Henochowicz, a US student activist in Palestine who was shot in the face with a tear gas canister while protesting peacefully. That happened today by the way. Maybe you could read up on just about anything regarding the IDF's policies during the last decade and then you'd realise that this is very much standard rules of engagement for them.

Here. Read this.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-in-...andalism-and-lax-rules-of-engagement-1.272379

During Operation Cast Lead, Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed their property, say soldiers who fought in the offensive.

According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

Another squad leader from the same brigade told of an incident where the company commander ordered that an elderly Palestinian woman be shot and killed; she was walking on a road about 100 meters from a house the company had commandeered.

The squad leader said he argued with his commander over the permissive rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning the residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, the squad leader's soldiers complained that "we should kill everyone there [in the center of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist."

That's just one article out there about one operation from last year. You can find a lot more about this. Also you could try reading those wikipedia links I posted before in this thread, all of which are about other peace protestors who were or killed with provocation.

Yes, they do. They wanted blood on Israeli hands, not aid for Gaza. Which is why the "peace protesters" tried to beat, stab and shoot the boarding party to death rather than using non violent resistance like they claimed they would.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAMFnu8ZBwk&feature=player_embedded

Yup. They look real peaceful to me.

Now, I'm not saying that Israel's response wasn't stupid - it was. They gave these people exactly what they wanted. It certainly could have been handled better. But its hardly a case of some poor innocent hippies being massacred by the IDF.

Yes, it's not like Israel boarded them illegally with helicopters and gunboats in the middle of an ocean, where they had nowhere to run after supposedly being fired upon by the IDF beforehand. The protestors were completely unprovoked and violent, vicious human beings. Much like the G20 rioters that come around every year and how they always end up causing mayhem and eventually end up getting shot at protest rallies. Oh wait - That last part doesn't happen.

That's also ignoring the fact that most, if not all of this footage is the footage sent out by the IDF and out of the 30 minute confrontation they've only released about 50 seconds of what happened, all of which has been heavily edited to show only the protestors being violent with no indication of the inciting incident that turned them violent.

If this was another Bloody Sunday and this happened in Ireland, would you be saying that those protestors had it coming and deserved to be shot and killed?

 

[Nabobalis]

Nabobalis, you are aware that an international investigation was not agreed upon, hence most likely the investigation will be conducted by Israel only, hence they will announce what happened.

At least that's what I've read.

Yeah, the UN resoultion dropped the term international investigation but I'm sure/hoping the EU will still do one.

 

[Some_God]

Wahh! International waters, wahh! When it comes to national security, do you think any nation would give a crap about an imaginary line in the water? These scumbags had it coming to them, but that's exactly what they wanted.

 

[15357]

I don't like protesters. That said...



Er, I think I'll just slowly back out of this thread now.

 

[Dan]

Wahh! International waters, wahh! When it comes to national security, do you think any nation would give a crap about an imaginary line in the water? These scumbags had it coming to them, but that's exactly what they wanted.

Somalia don't care, why should Israel care.

 

[Sparta]

Wahh! International waters, wahh! When it comes to national security, do you think any nation would give a crap about an imaginary line in the water? These scumbags had it coming to them, but that's exactly what they wanted.

Hey, how you going? Read the thread? No? Ok, how about this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire

Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists

Survivors of the Israeli assault on a flotilla carrying relief supplies to Gaza returned to Greece and Turkey today, giving the first eyewitness accounts of the raid in which at least 10 people died.

Arriving at Istanbul's Ataturk airport with her one-year-old baby, Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin said Israeli troops opened fire before boarding the Turkish-flagged ferry Mavi Marmara, which was the scene of the worst clashes and all the fatalities. Israeli officials have said that the use of armed force began when its boarding party was attacked.

"It was extremely bad and very tough clashes took place. The Mavi Marmara is filled with blood," said Cetin, whose husband is the Mavi Marmara's chief engineer.

She told reporters that she and her child hid in the bathroom of their cabin during the confrontation. "The operation started immediately with firing. First it was warning shots, but when the Mavi Marmara wouldn't stop these warnings turned into an attack," she said.

"There were sound and smoke bombs and later they used gas bombs. Following the bombings they started to come on board from helicopters."

Cetin is among a handful of Turkish activists to be released; more than 300 remain in Israeli custody. She said she agreed to extradition from Israel after she was warned that conditions in jail would be too harsh for her child.

"I am one of the first passengers to be sent home, just because I have baby. When we arrived at the Israeli port of Ashdod we were met by the Israeli interior and foreign ministry officials and police; there were no soldiers. They asked me only a few questions. But they took everything – cameras, laptops, cellphones, personal belongings including our clothes," she said.

Kutlu Tiryaki was a captain of another vessel in the flotilla. "We continuously told them we did not have weapons, we came here to bring humanitarian help and not to fight," he said.

"The attack on the Mavi Marmara came in an instant: they attacked it with 12 or 13 attack boats and also with commandos from helicopters. We heard the gunshots over our portable radio handsets, which we used to communicate with the Mavi Marmara, because our ship communication system was disrupted. There were three or four helicopters also used in the attack. We were told by Mavi Marmara their crew and civilians were being shot at and windows and doors were being broken by Israelis."

Six Greek activists who returned to Athens accused Israeli commandos of using electric shocks during the raid.

Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, told reporters: "Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat. They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

Michalis Grigoropoulos, who was at the wheel of the Free Mediterranean, said: "We were in international waters. The Israelis acted like pirates, completely out of the normal way that they conduct nautical exercises, and seized our ship. They took us hostage, pointing guns at our heads; they descended from helicopters and fired tear gas and bullets. There was absolutely nothing we could do … Those who tried to resist forming a human ring on the bridge were given electric shocks."

Grigoropoulos, who insisted the ship was full of humanitarian aid bound for Gaza "and nothing more", said that, once detained, the human rights activists were not allowed to contact a lawyer or the Greek embassy in Tel Aviv. "They didn't let us go to the toilet, eat or drink water and throughout they videoed us. They confiscated everything, mobile phones, laptops, cameras and personal effects. They only allowed us to keep our papers."

Turkey said it was sending three ambulance planes to Israel to pick up 20 more Turkish activists injured in the operation.

Three Turkish Airlines planes were on standby, waiting to fly back other activists, the prime minister's office said.

Yeah they had it coming, they deserved to be shot to death for defending themselves after being shot at in international waters. Same with all those people who were or have ever been killed by Somali pirates. They all deserved it.

By the way, what exactly was the threat here? All ships were checked by Turkish customs before disembarking. Turkey are an ally of Israel. Turkey are actually going $180 million dollars in the near future to buy predator drones off of Israel. So they don't trust Turkish customs to do their job, but they'll sell them Predator drones?

 

[No Limit]

Wahh! International waters, wahh! When it comes to national security, do you think any nation would give a crap about an imaginary line in the water? These scumbags had it coming to them, but that's exactly what they wanted.

Right, lets send the american army to kill protesters we don't like where ever in the world they happen to be. Why? Because we can, **** international laws!

For anyone defending Israel in this I would just like to say, 9 innocent people lost their lives you insensitive pricks. Why? Because Israel wanted to show the world how they like to piss all over anyone that doesn't support their actions.

 

[Gargantou]

Somalia don't care, why should Israel care.

Does Somalia(the state, not private illegal groups aka pirates) even have a navy capable of violating international maritime law?

Back on topic, am I the only one who is remotely interested in the organizers of Ship To Gaza, ?nsani Yard?m Vakf?, reported ties to terrorist and Islamic fundamentalist groups, including Hamas and reportedly(long before this event took place) al-Qaeda?

 

[Dan]

Somalia ain't a state in any sense of the word. It's the place that's on the other side of the border from Ethiopia and Kenya. The private illegal groups aka pirates are the ones who do what they want there.

 

[Some_God]

9 innocent people lost their lives

:hmph: They were innocent? Sure. Those mean Israelis only gave them multiple warnings not to proceed into an "area of hostility, under naval blockade." They didn't listen and continued on... their choice. Israeli soldiers attempted to board the ship, only to be met by a mob of peaceful, innocent people armed with sticks, chairs and god knows what else. The soldiers did what they did to protect themselves. In my mind, the "protesters" had it coming.

 

[Bob_Marley]

None of this applies when you're in INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

International Law disagrees:-

It is illegal to enforce embargo/blockade in the terretorial waters of a 3rd party but in international water it is allowed under article 67(a) of San Remo Manual its permissible to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture."

link

Nice and legal.

Maybe they panicked because the vessels had already opened fire on them before boarding them, which is what some of the prior leaked reports suggest is what happened.

Maybe, Suggest. Everything I have read suggest that the IDF commandos used all non-lethal means at thier disposal before resorting to lethal force and drawing thier side arms (They were not carrying rifles, but paintball guns).

Now why would the IDF send its men onto the deck of a hostile ship with paintball guns and orders not to use lethal force except in extreme circumstances if it had, just moments before, indiscriminately machinegunned said ship?

Doesn't make much sense to me.

You really believe the IDF, who have a history of lying, obfuscating and twisting the reports of these kind of incidents will end up telling the full story?

Of course not. But niether will anyone else and it seems the world is all too keen to point the finger of blame at the IDF before things have become clear.

Yes, it's not like Israel boarded them illegally with helicopters and gunboats in the middle of an ocean, where they had nowhere to run after supposedly being fired upon by the IDF beforehand. The protestors were completely unprovoked and violent, vicious human beings. Much like the G20 rioters that come around every year and how they always end up causing mayhem and eventually end up getting shot at protest rallies. Oh wait - That last part doesn't happen.

As has already been established, the boarding was legal under international law. I've not seen anything that says they were fired upon. The G20 situation is not comparible here - a ship and 30 men rapelling from helicopters is a very different environment to the streets of a major city, all the resources of a police force and room for manuver.

That's also ignoring the fact that most, if not all of this footage is the footage sent out by the IDF and out of the 30 minute confrontation they've only released about 50 seconds of what happened, all of which has been heavily edited to show only the protestors being violent with no indication of the inciting incident that turned them violent.

Its the only footage of the incident we have so far. Oh yeah, it also shows a deliberate attempt to bring down the helicopter and the "peace protesters" beating the Israeli soldier before he's even got off the rope to have a chance at provoking them.

If this was another Bloody Sunday and this happened in Ireland, would you be saying that those protestors had it coming and deserved to be shot and killed?

If troops lives are in danger, as was clearly the case here, lethal force is justifiable. It shouldn't have come to that, of course. Clearly the Israelis were not prepared for just how violent these protesters are and didn't deploy enough men or less lethal methods (ie dropping a shedload of teargas on them before landing. Or the really sensible thing to do, foul the ships props then tow it to be impounded.). Under the circumstances that the men found themselves in lives were going to be lost, it was simply a case of who would loose them.

By the way, what exactly was the threat here? All ships were checked by Turkish customs before disembarking. Turkey are an ally of Israel. Turkey are actually going $180 million dollars in the near future to buy predator drones off of Israel. So they don't trust Turkish customs to do their job, but they'll sell them Predator drones?

Its not a question of customs, Israel already offered to transfer the items through the correct, legal channels. The protesters chose to attempt to breach the blocade quite deliberately as a political statement.

Also, its not usually customs who handle the use of Predator drones.

Back on topic, am I the only one who is remotely interested in the organizers of Ship To Gaza, ?nsani Yard?m Vakf?, reported ties to terrorist and Islamic fundamentalist groups, including Hamas and reportedly(long before this event took place) al-Qaeda?

No, I'm interested in that too, but come on. Israel attacked these peaceful protesters! Whatever thier pasts may be they're clearly saints!

 

[Gargantou]

Somalia ain't a state in any sense of the word. It's the place that's on the other side of the border from Ethiopia and Kenya. The private illegal groups aka pirates are the ones who do what they want there.

Did you know the nations who are making the most money off piracy is Western nations, including Great Britain?

Insurance firms and security companies make far more off the piracy than the actual pirates do.

And most of the pirates themselves used to be fishermen until Western fishing fleets basically ran them out of business.

Somali pirates deserves our sympathies tbh!

Sorry for derailing the thread but I had to bring the plight of the Somali pirates to light.

 

[Sparta]

International Law disagrees:-

It is illegal to enforce embargo/blockade in the terretorial waters of a 3rd party but in international water it is allowed under article 67(a) of San Remo Manual its permissible to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture."

link

Nice and legal.

No it's not. Like I said, Read something

The non-binding[94] San Remo memorandum (paragraph 60, chapter e) states that refusing an order to stop or actively resisting visit, search or capture may render merchant vessels military objectives. It also states (Paragraph 47, chapter c) that vessels engaged in humanitarian missions and carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of civilian population are exempt from attack, on condition they were operating based on "agreement between the belligerent parties"

Israel knew they were coming, this flotilla made their intentions known and clear to the Israelis long before this whole thing started. This is still illegal. On top of that, The San Remo memorandum is not legally binding, therefore it's not law.

and FINALLY, there is actual law (The U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea) that can still be enacted as binding because of several international legal precedents, even though Israel hasn't signed the law. More reading:

The French vessel was brought to Turkey and the captain was put on trial. France appealed the Turkish action, arguing that it (France) alone had jurisdiction on the high seas for its own vessels. However, the court ruled that sovereign states may act in anyway they please on the high seas as long as they do not violate an explicit prohibition.

The UN convention calls for freedom of navigation in international waters, states that the high seas shall be reserved for peaceful purposes and that no state may validly purport to subject any part of the high seas to its sovereignty.

The third source referred to by the petitioners, which they said was part of customary law and therefore binding on Israel, was the 1804 Murray vs. Charming Betsy case, in which the court ruled that even during wartime, the US army may not seize goods that are not for military use in international waters

So even without signing the U.N. Convention of the Law of the Sea, and with the San Remo memorandum not being a law, Israel is still pretty screwed on this and acted illegally.

Maybe, Suggest. Everything I have read suggest that the IDF commandos used all non-lethal means at thier disposal before resorting to lethal force and drawing thier side arms (They were not carrying rifles, but paintball guns).

Then you haven't read anything the released protestors have said have you? Did you even bother to read my earlier post? The one that said they were fired upon before the Israelis boarded them?

Now why would the IDF send its men onto the deck of a hostile ship with paintball guns and orders not to use lethal force except in extreme circumstances if it had, just moments before, indiscriminately machinegunned said ship?

Doesn't make much sense to me.

You're right, it doesn't make sense, neither does any of the horrendous rules of engagement I've quoted from numerous other articles I've already posted in this thread. Yet they did it, and the IDF is doing so much harm to Israel that it's beyond me how they can continue to think that in the end they'll be fine. Don't believe me? Maybe believe one of the U.S. protestors

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/01/gaza.raid.eyewitnesses/

Of course not. But niether will anyone else and it seems the world is all too keen to point the finger of blame at the IDF before things have become clear.

Yeah the whole world is anti-semetic apparently. Israel has never done anything to deserve any criticism. Never mind the apartheid-like conditions in Palestine or the ever-growing expansion of illegal settlements, or the numerous and on-going list of human rights violations it commits on a daily basis to a sovereign people.

As has already been established, the boarding was legal under international law (Wrong). I've not seen anything that says they were fired upon. The G20 situation is not comparible here - a ship and 30 men rapelling from helicopters is a very different environment to the streets of a major city, all the resources of a police force and room for manuver.

Then all you have been reading is what the American media have put out about this if you haven't read anything that says they were fired upon first. The G20 Situation is comparable when you look at the size of the comparable crowds and environment. With those kinds of numbers I doubt you'd get much more room between people and protestors in the city as you do.

Its the only footage of the incident we have so far. Oh yeah, it also shows a deliberate attempt to bring down the helicopter and the "peace protesters" beating the Israeli soldier before he's even got off the rope to have a chance at provoking them.

That's because they were already being shot at before Israel even boarded them.

If troops lives are in danger, as was clearly the case here, lethal force is justifiable. It shouldn't have come to that, of course. Clearly the Israelis were not prepared for just how violent these protesters are and didn't deploy enough men or less lethal methods (ie dropping a shedload of teargas on them before landing. Or the really sensible thing to do, foul the ships props then tow it to be impounded.). Under the circumstances that the men found themselves in lives were going to be lost, it was simply a case of who would loose them.

The protestors were violent because Israel had already shot at them before boarding, illegally in international waters. Yes, it was a dumb move by the protestors, but Israel started shooting at them and was doing so for five minutes before boarding them. What did they expect would happen?

Its not a question of customs, Israel already offered to transfer the items through the correct, legal channels. The protesters chose to attempt to breach the blocade quite deliberately as a political statement.

Also, its not usually customs who handle the use of Predator drones.

No but it's still a government agency that's designed to keep out illegal weapons/drugs and anything harmful that shouldn't be coming or going. And I believe the hardest part of putting trust in another nation would be trusting them so much as to give them your weapons. Clearly, Israel could have waited until it was in the the ****ing port, with the passengers still on board to check it. That's what every other customs agency on the planet does.

 

[No Limit]

:hmph: They were innocent? Sure. Those mean Israelis only gave them multiple warnings not to proceed into an "area of hostility, under naval blockade." They didn't listen and continued on... their choice. Israeli soldiers attempted to board the ship, only to be met by a mob of peaceful, innocent people armed with sticks, chairs and god knows what else. The soldiers did what they did to protect themselves. In my mind, the "protesters" had it coming.

becauses there is no other way of stopping a ship full of protestors? The only choice you have at that point is to shoot people, right? Give me a ****ing break.

And holy shit? They were armed with sticks and chairs? jesus ****ing christ, I would hate to be holding a fully automatic m16 while a guy armed with a stick was coming after me.

The fact is they didn't have to get on that ship. They didn't have to fire a bunch of shots first. They had many other ways to deal with the ship once it entered their waters, something it never did as it was in international waters when Israel attacked. Instead they decided to go full commando on the ship just to show the world that they could killing 10 innocent people and hurting many others in the process.

I guess you would support Obama shooting tea party protestors on sight if they ignore warnings to leave? That's clearly the only way to deal with protestors, put a bullet in their heads, amirite?

Israel defenders really make me sick. Stop riding their dicks, many times their actions are no better than the terrorists they say they want to stop. And all you can do is come up with every ****ing excuse in the book to defend their barbarian actions.

 

[VictimOfScience]

Man, the US missed a MAJOR opportunity here to show the world that they won't blindly protect Israel while they do pretty much whatever they please with human life.

The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.

Source.

By blocking this the US is exposed as the willing accomplice in this murder. How in the name of anything that is good can Israel be expected to police itself objectively and lead this "impartial investigation" into it's own illegal actions?? Time and again our own government agencies have proven that they cannot police themselves--why would these circumstances be any different? This is a hideous disgrace and failure for this administration imho.